115 réponses à ce sujet

[Spinnazie]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

lokiarchetype wrote...

That's not a paragon viewpoint though.  Paragons are "We don't need your blood money!" kinda people.  Paragon Shep even tells TIM "I'm going to save humanity without sacrificing it's soul". 
If a Paragon is going to save the universe, they're going to do it the 'right way' and not get their hands dirty.

I think the difference between us is: you're playing a video game, but I'm making decisions based on what I would do in reality. If you think every situation (especially ones involving warfare) can be solved without getting your hands dirty then you are terribly naive.

And you're naive to think that giving this Collector Base to TIM is the only way to defeat the Reapers.

Using Reaper technology also tends to backfire or get people Indoctrinated. Who's to say whats in that base? The Reaper's are obviously aware of the base and it's location. Not to mention you're giving this thing to a known terrorist and someone who clearly states he will use it to gain "Human" dominance. (If it can be used at all.)

Even on my main renegade Shepard I destroyed the base. IMO it's the most logical thing to do.  The Reapers are a very formidable foe, but even Vigil on Illos stated that a united Galaxy could challenge the Reapers.

Modifié par Spinnazie, 03 février 2010 - 02:42 .

[ashmiranda3waymm]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Exploding8 wrote...

Considering the fact that the Illusive Man wants Humanity to take over the entire galaxy, it seems pretty easy to figure out that giving him his key to doing that is a renegade move.

What? Cerberus is about human survival and advancement, not galactic conquest.

QFT

Too many people make the leap that TIM has the cliched goal of conquering the galaxy.

There may be sensible people on these forums after all. At least people who will give slight credence to the possibility that TIM is not pure evil.

[lokiarchetype]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

The ring was created by Sauran and is part of him, the collector base is prothean and the only physical connection with the repears it has was that repear embrio they were trying to build.

So again wrong anology.

The right LOTR anology would be to use some super Orc weapon that you captured from them againt Suaron

The collector base isn't prothean.  Collectors are as much Prothean as splenda is sugar.  Collectors were made from Protheans by the Reapers sort of like how the husks, scions, praetorians were made from humans.

Their base is likely reaper-issued, since the reapers are the ones in charge of them.  Collectors are just their mindless drones who work in the galaxy so that the reapers can stay behind the scenes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes people should differentiate "dominance" and "conquest". The USA dominates the world today as a hegemon (though its dominance is weaknening). That doesn't mean it conquered anybody. Technically speaking.

[Faldarian2]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

It's very easy to be all idealistic while playing a video game, but if you would doom a defenseless galaxy to destruction by the Reapers with NO viable alternative to stop them, well, I'll just say I hope you're never in charge of anything that could cost the lives of innocent people.

No one who would sacrifice their morals, ethics, and integrity to achieve a  goal will ever achieve any of the rewards that victory represents.

[Inverness Moon]

Faldarian2 wrote...

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

It's very easy to be all idealistic while playing a video game, but if you would doom a defenseless galaxy to destruction by the Reapers with NO viable alternative to stop them, well, I'll just say I hope you're never in charge of anything that could cost the lives of innocent people.

No one who would sacrifice their morals, ethics, and integrity to achieve a  goal will ever achieve any of the rewards that victory represents.

The reapers' cycle of destruction has been going on for hundreds of millions of years. I don't think anyone can afford idealism in the face of that.

[Inverness Moon]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

lokiarchetype wrote...

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

The ring was created by Sauran and is part of him, the collector base is prothean and the only physical connection with the repears it has was that repear embrio they were trying to build.

So again wrong anology.

The right LOTR anology would be to use some super Orc weapon that you captured from them againt Suaron

The collector base isn't prothean.  Collectors are as much Prothean as splenda is sugar.  Collectors were made from Protheans by the Reapers sort of like how the husks, scions, praetorians were made from humans.

Their base is likely reaper-issued, since the reapers are the ones in charge of them.  Collectors are just their mindless drones who work in the galaxy so that the reapers can stay behind the scenes.

 
The Collector base or ship doesnt even remotely look like reaper tech, I mean the reapers would have to be tactical morons to give a slave race they own tech which it the event that the said race is captured the tech would be analized.

A reaper IFF was required to successfully use the Omega 4 Relay. One has to consider if the reapers are arrogant enough to believe no one they didn't want would be able to get ahold of such a thing.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

Faldarian2 wrote...

No one who would sacrifice their morals, ethics, and integrity to achieve a  goal will ever achieve any of the rewards that victory represents.

lolwut? That was one of the more cliche things I've ever seen posted on a forum.

[lokiarchetype]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

There may be sensible people on these forums after all. At least people who will give slight credence to the possibility that TIM is not pure evil.

The first game portrayed Cerberus as outright evil, the second game painted it in shades of gray, however, first impressions are more lasting, so people still hate Cerberus and, similary, people still hate the Geth even though in ME2 quarians come across as more of the bad guys between the two.

I don't think TIM is someone who should be outright villified, but I also think it's foolish to really trust him yet.  He withholds a lot and when I'm saving the galaxy I don't appreciate people feeding me info on a need-to-know basis.  It's hard to be comfortable with someone who is so clearly using you for their agenda, especially when you can't fully grasp what that agenda entails.

[hexediter]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

lokiarchetype wrote...

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

The ring was created by Sauran and is part of him, the collector base is prothean and the only physical connection with the repears it has was that repear embrio they were trying to build.

So again wrong anology.

The right LOTR anology would be to use some super Orc weapon that you captured from them againt Suaron

The collector base isn't prothean.  Collectors are as much Prothean as splenda is sugar.  Collectors were made from Protheans by the Reapers sort of like how the husks, scions, praetorians were made from humans.

Their base is likely reaper-issued, since the reapers are the ones in charge of them.  Collectors are just their mindless drones who work in the galaxy so that the reapers can stay behind the scenes.

 
The Collector base or ship doesnt even remotely look like reaper tech, I mean the reapers would have to be tactical morons to give a slave race they own tech which it the event that the said race is captured the tech would be analized.

Ok, well if it's not reaper tec then there is nothing to really gain from it is there?  So either it is or it isn't.  Pretty sure TIM says it is a chance to use there technology against them.  I mean there is only a baby reaper in the building, along with you know, everything else they were using to build it.

[Vaenier]

At the very least, you could inspect the design of the reaper and look for weak spots. worst case would be some researchers sacrificing themselves to indoctrination to learn its secrets, but all would know the risks, and their sacrifice would be remembered.

[lokiarchetype]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

lokiarchetype wrote...

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

The ring was created by Sauran and is part of him, the collector base is prothean and the only physical connection with the repears it has was that repear embrio they were trying to build.

So again wrong anology.

The right LOTR anology would be to use some super Orc weapon that you captured from them againt Suaron

The collector base isn't prothean.  Collectors are as much Prothean as splenda is sugar.  Collectors were made from Protheans by the Reapers sort of like how the husks, scions, praetorians were made from humans.

Their base is likely reaper-issued, since the reapers are the ones in charge of them.  Collectors are just their mindless drones who work in the galaxy so that the reapers can stay behind the scenes.

 
The Collector base or ship doesnt even remotely look like reaper tech, I mean the reapers would have to be tactical morons to give a slave race they own tech which it the event that the said race is captured the tech would be analized.

We don't know what reaper tech looks like.  The only reaper tech we've seen is reapers themselves and there's no reason to assume all their tech looks how they do.

The collector ship and base look like synthetic structures re-purposed with organic material.  Thus, it isn't too hard to believe the original underlying structure is reaper-tech and the organic components are from the collector's, sort of like how you can build shelved box for bees for them to build their hives and honeycombs in.

[sarelis]

I think there is this notion that keeping the base is the more "tactical" decision, but I didn't see it that way. All we know about that base was that it liquefied people to make a giant reaper. Say that TIM gets it, and starts liquefying aliens to make reapers. The aliens aren't going to be happy about that. Even if he didn't use it, even if he just studied it, aliens are going to find out that humans have this dangerous tech, and still aren't going to be too happy about it. Since most of the galaxy doesn't believe that the reapers are a threat, they might end up putting a whole bunch of effort in keeping the dangerous humans in check. Then, when those thousands of reapers show up, humans and aliens are already fighting/weakened, with no cohesive defense.

I'm just saying, I don't think the aliens would stand idly by while humans fiddled about with the collector base-- especially not when it's Cerberus whose in charge of it all, since their name is mud.

TIM said that the base could be studied to learn more about the reapers, but there is no evidence of that, and he could just be saying it to manipulate you into giving him the base for his own purposes.

Besides, looking at all those ships, and knowing how many people it was going to take to build the giant reaper-human thing (i.e. all of earth), I doubt the one giant reaper would be as effective as having all the different alien species unite to take down the invasion. It just seems that numbers will matter more than one giant weapon that will take forever to build and loose us all of our allies.

That's also why I rewrote the geth. That one, though it was a paragon choice, was complete selfishness on my part: I wanted more potential allies.

Anyway, I would say that just because TIM says he's going to study the base to help us understand the reapers doesn't mean that the base could actually help, and in the end you are basically giving a dangerous weapon to a group whose decisions in the past have been brutally single-minded. And also it would prove true the aliens' fears that humans will put other species at risk to empower themselves, which would be bad because then they REALLY wouldn't believe a word Shepard said. Shepard would be like, "No really, the reapers are coming! There's one right behind you!" and that one turian council guy would be like "You humans are always trying to cause trouble, I don't believe you."

[KnightofPhoenix]

sarelis wrote...

I think there is this notion that keeping the base is the more "tactical" decision, but I didn't see it that way. All we know about that base was that it liquefied people to make a giant reaper. Say that TIM gets it, and starts liquefying aliens to make reapers. The aliens aren't going to be happy about that. Even if he didn't use it, even if he just studied it, aliens are going to find out that humans have this dangerous tech, and still aren't going to be too happy about it. Since most of the galaxy doesn't believe that the reapers are a threat, they might end up putting a whole bunch of effort in keeping the dangerous humans in check. Then, when those thousands of reapers show up, humans and aliens are already fighting/weakened, with no cohesive defense.

Aliens will never find out, as they don't know how to use the Omega 4 relay. They will only find out when it's too late.
TIM knows how to keep a secret.

[lokiarchetype]

sarelis wrote...

I think there is this notion that keeping the base is the more "tactical" decision, but I didn't see it that way. All we know about that base was that it liquefied people to make a giant reaper. Say that TIM gets it, and starts liquefying aliens to make reapers. The aliens aren't going to be happy about that. Even if he didn't use it, even if he just studied it, aliens are going to find out that humans have this dangerous tech, and still aren't going to be too happy about it. Since most of the galaxy doesn't believe that the reapers are a threat, they might end up putting a whole bunch of effort in keeping the dangerous humans in check. Then, when those thousands of reapers show up, humans and aliens are already fighting/weakened, with no cohesive defense.
I'm just saying, I don't think the aliens would stand idly by while humans fiddled about with the collector base-- especially not when it's Cerberus whose in charge of it all, since their name is mud.
TIM said that the base could be studied to learn more about the reapers, but there is no evidence of that, and he could just be saying it to manipulate you into giving him the base for his own purposes.
Besides, looking at all those ships, and knowing how many people it was going to take to build the giant reaper-human thing (i.e. all of earth), I doubt the one giant reaper would be as effective as having all the different alien species unite to take down the invasion. It just seems that numbers will matter more than one giant weapon that will take forever to build and loose us all of our allies.
That's also why I rewrote the geth. That one, though it was a paragon choice, was complete selfishness on my part: I wanted more potential allies.
Anyway, I would say that just because TIM says he's going to study the base to help us understand the reapers doesn't mean that the base could actually help, and in the end you are basically giving a dangerous weapon to a group whose decisions in the past have been brutally single-minded. And also it would prove true the aliens' fears that humans will put other species at risk to empower themselves, which would be bad because then they REALLY wouldn't believe a word Shepard said. Shepard would be like, "No really, the reapers are coming! There's one right behind you!" and that one turian council guy would be like "You humans are always trying to cause trouble, I don't believe you."

The only people who know about the collector base are you, your crew, and TIM since no other ships have entered nor can enter the Omega 4 Relay.

That being said, it might be a good survival decision to destroy it, as you might pose a risk to operations otherwise.  Knowing too much is a very bad thing, especially when you work for a black ops organization.

[ERJAK2]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

Bioware wants you to believe that Geth are sentient beings with inherent value more than the metal they are made out of. I personally do not buy this but it is up for debate.
With the Collector base it is Paragon to destroy it because you're not wiping out any sort of people, but valuable information that could be deadly in the wrong hands. (I went Renegade on both of these btw)

Did you even talk to legion? The Geth are better people than any other race in the galaxy. Their goal as a species is to download all their conciousness into a single giant machine so no geth ever has to be alone.

[lokiarchetype]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

Ok this is getting tedious, have you even played this game??

You WERE in a repear ship when you got Legion for god's sake.

You know what reapear tech looks like and it DIDNT look like the tech in the collector base/ship

You were in a reaper, not a reaper ship, reaper's don't have ships, that'd be redundant.  The mass relays and citadel were built by the reapers and they don't look like Sovereign at all.

Regardless, the base was built using reaper knowledge at the very least, whether the actual machinery resembles them or not.  It's entire purpose was to create a reaper, which seems like something only reapers would know how to do.  It was essentially a reaper factory being supervised by a reaper.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 03 février 2010 - 03:16 .

[ashmiranda3waymm]

ERJAK2 wrote...

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

Bioware wants you to believe that Geth are sentient beings with inherent value more than the metal they are made out of. I personally do not buy this but it is up for debate.
With the Collector base it is Paragon to destroy it because you're not wiping out any sort of people, but valuable information that could be deadly in the wrong hands. (I went Renegade on both of these btw)

Did you even talk to legion? The Geth are better people than any other race in the galaxy. Their goal as a species is to download all their conciousness into a single giant machine so no geth ever has to be alone.

I would literally be miserable if I could never be alone and I was in constant contact with everyone all the time. I'm not kidding it sounds like living hell.

[lokiarchetype]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

Bioware wants you to believe that Geth are sentient beings with inherent value more than the metal they are made out of. I personally do not buy this but it is up for debate.
With the Collector base it is Paragon to destroy it because you're not wiping out any sort of people, but valuable information that could be deadly in the wrong hands. (I went Renegade on both of these btw)

Did you even talk to legion? The Geth are better people than any other race in the galaxy. Their goal as a species is to download all their conciousness into a single giant machine so no geth ever has to be alone.

I would literally be miserable if I could never be alone and I was in constant contact with everyone all the time. I'm not kidding it sounds like living hell.

It's called living in an individualist culture.

If you lived in a collectivist one it'd probably seem more normal.  One such culture's version of heaven is basically everyone's souls coming together into one entity.

[Vaenier]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

Bioware wants you to believe that Geth are sentient beings with inherent value more than the metal they are made out of. I personally do not buy this but it is up for debate.
With the Collector base it is Paragon to destroy it because you're not wiping out any sort of people, but valuable information that could be deadly in the wrong hands. (I went Renegade on both of these btw)

Did you even talk to legion? The Geth are better people than any other race in the galaxy. Their goal as a species is to download all their conciousness into a single giant machine so no geth ever has to be alone.

I would literally be miserable if I could never be alone and I was in constant contact with everyone all the time. I'm not kidding it sounds like living hell.

They are a completely different type of life. Its not possible to impose our feelings onto their society. Its hard to even comprehend how they exist as 1000 people inside one body of Legion.

[hexediter]

On the flip side I'm reminded of Space Balls... "So Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb!"