115 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

sarelis wrote...

I think there is this notion that keeping the base is the more "tactical" decision, but I didn't see it that way. All we know about that base was that it liquefied people to make a giant reaper. Say that TIM gets it, and starts liquefying aliens to make reapers. The aliens aren't going to be happy about that. Even if he didn't use it, even if he just studied it, aliens are going to find out that humans have this dangerous tech, and still aren't going to be too happy about it. Since most of the galaxy doesn't believe that the reapers are a threat, they might end up putting a whole bunch of effort in keeping the dangerous humans in check. Then, when those thousands of reapers show up, humans and aliens are already fighting/weakened, with no cohesive defense.

First of all you're making a pretty big assumption about what TIM gets it. Secondly, the idea of the aliens wanting to keep the humans in check is also a pretty big assumption. The council can't just start jumping on races just for having advanced technology, it is what that race does with that technolgoy that counts. And so many people here assume TIM will try to conquer the galaxy or some other cliched thing.

sarelis wrote...

I'm just saying, I don't think the aliens would stand idly by while humans fiddled about with the collector base-- especially not when it's Cerberus whose in charge of it all, since their name is mud.
TIM said that the base could be studied to learn more about the reapers, but there is no evidence of that, and he could just be saying it to manipulate you into giving him the base for his own purposes.

How would anyone else even know about the collector base exists?

There is also no evidence that the base wont yield more knowledge about the reapers. That is why we have to study it to know for certain.

sarelis wrote...

Besides, looking at all those ships, and knowing how many people it was going to take to build the giant reaper-human thing (i.e. all of earth), I doubt the one giant reaper would be as effective as having all the different alien species unite to take down the invasion. It just seems that numbers will matter more than one giant weapon that will take forever to build and loose us all of our allies.

You're assuming TIM wants to make a reaper like the collectors were doing, which is ridiculous imho.

sarelis wrote...

Anyway, I would say that just because TIM says he's going to study the base to help us understand the reapers doesn't mean that the base could actually help, and in the end you are basically giving a dangerous weapon to a group whose decisions in the past have been brutally single-minded. And also it would prove true the aliens' fears that humans will put other species at risk to empower themselves, which would be bad because then they REALLY wouldn't believe a word Shepard said. Shepard would be like, "No really, the reapers are coming! There's one right behind you!" and that one turian council guy would be like "You humans are always trying to cause trouble, I don't believe you."

That group is the only one that got off of their asses to do something about the collector threat, and one of the few, if any, that actually takes the reaper threat seriously that has the resources to do something about it.

ERJAK2 wrote...

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

Bioware wants you to believe that Geth are sentient beings with inherent value more than the metal they are made out of. I personally do not buy this but it is up for debate. With the Collector base it is Paragon to destroy it because you're not wiping out any sort of people, but valuable information that could be deadly in the wrong hands. (I went Renegade on both of these btw)

Did you even talk to legion? The Geth are better people than any other race in the galaxy. Their goal as a species is to download all their conciousness into a single giant machine so no geth ever has to be alone.

Yes, that was a nice dose of Evangelion.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 03 février 2010 - 03:28 .

[lokiarchetype]

Vaenier wrote...


They are a completely different type of life. Its not possible to impose our feelings onto their society. Its hard to even comprehend how they exist as 1000 people inside one body of Legion.

It'd be like your cells having an opinion about everything you did.

Well actually that's over the top, it'd probably be more like your systems being conscious and aware..  
...So your cardiovascular system and digestive system would have it out when you ate about whether that bacon double cheeseburger is a good idea or not.
..At the speed of light!

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 03 février 2010 - 03:28 .

[Inverness Moon]

lokiarchetype wrote...

Vaenier wrote...


They are a completely different type of life. Its not possible to impose our feelings onto their society. Its hard to even comprehend how they exist as 1000 people inside one body of Legion.

It'd be like your cells having an opinion about everything you did.

Well actually that's over the top, it'd probably be more like your systems being conscious.  So your cardiovascular system and digestive system would have it out when you ate about whether that bacon double cheeseburger is a good idea or not.

Not really, the geth that make up Legion are all equals. The organs in your body each have a different purpose and all that stuff.

[lokiarchetype]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Not really, the geth that make up Legion are all equals. The organs in your body each have a different purpose and all that stuff.

Really?  I was under the impression that the Geth were software and each one had it's own role like task-oriented programming, thus, coordinating those roles is necessary to achieve greater tasks and that's why they're stronger when together.  Specialization is more efficient afterall.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 03 février 2010 - 03:33 .

[Inverness Moon]

lokiarchetype wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Not really, the geth that make up Legion are all equals. The organs in your body each have a different purpose and all that stuff.

Really?  I was under the impression that the Geth were software and each one had it's own role, thus, coordinating those roles is necessary to achieve greater tasks and that's why they're stronger when together.  Specialization is more efficient afterall.

Hmm, that is a very good point. I'm thinking they are all capable of the same things but are tasked with certain things depending on what kind of body they're in, etc. But that is not relevant.

More important is that, as Legion said, the geth individually are more akin to VIs, and they only become sentient and full of awesome when they share processing power. So it wouldn't be like 1000 people inside a body.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 03 février 2010 - 03:38 .

[Vaenier]

I wonder if the geth will merge into single personalities over time. seems like "legion" wouldnt be himself if a program was swapped out with a different one from the collective. he has developed individual quirks of personality.

I remember reading that ai like edi cant be copied because they require a set hardware to run on. puting them into a new quantum box would create a new personality due to differences of hardware.

[Koyote 42]

ArcanistLibram wrote...
Giving the Collector base to the Illusive Man just can't possibly end well.

Yeah because we all seen how he did SO WELL with the 'deceased' Reaper. *rolls eyes* TIM can't see beyond his cybernetc eyes it seems.

[lokiarchetype]

Vaenier wrote...

I wonder if the geth will merge into single personalities over time. seems like "legion" wouldnt be himself if a program was swapped out with a different one from the collective. he has developed individual quirks of personality.
I remember reading that ai like edi cant be copied because they require a set hardware to run on. puting them into a new quantum box would create a new personality due to differences of hardware.

A similar idea was explored in the Sarah Connor Chronicles in reference to the AI "John Henry"

Murch: John Henry was hacked, we fixed that - and
besides, I think we're past the point where moving the hardware's a
good idea. In fact, I think it's … potentially a really bad idea.

Weaver: Oh? How's that so?

Murch: For example, the other day, one of the fan
wires on the server was … glitchy, so we switched it out. Same
wire, same length, identical - like changing a spark plug.

Weaver: And?

Murch: It sort of … tweaked him.

Weaver: I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Murch: What I'm getting at is I think what we know to
be John Henry only exists as this specific collection of hardware and
software … body and soul.

Weaver: We change a wire, we change John Henry.

Murch: Yes

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 03 février 2010 - 03:45 .

[Inverness Moon]

Vaenier wrote...

I wonder if the geth will merge into single personalities over time. seems like "legion" wouldnt be himself if a program was swapped out with a different one from the collective. he has developed individual quirks of personality.
I remember reading that ai like edi cant be copied because they require a set hardware to run on. puting them into a new quantum box would create a new personality due to differences of hardware.

It was specifically stated in the codex that geth are not like other AIs because geth are purely software and can be installed on any form of hardware without changing what they are.

[lokiarchetype]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I wonder if the geth will merge into single personalities over time. seems like "legion" wouldnt be himself if a program was swapped out with a different one from the collective. he has developed individual quirks of personality.
I remember reading that ai like edi cant be copied because they require a set hardware to run on. puting them into a new quantum box would create a new personality due to differences of hardware.

It was specifically stated in the codex that geth are not like other AIs because geth are purely software and can be installed on any form of hardware without changing what they are.

The quirks could simply be from the Geth who's in charge of verbal/body communication (if they are tasked in such a fashion).  They commune among themselves at the speed of light, and one is the designated representative who relays the info to you.

Then again, if they work as a unit, it could just be an amalgram of all their traits created by their different or shared perspectives. 
All 1183 have been inhabiting the same mobile platform for 2 years with minimal contact with the collective, that amount of isolation probably develops some amount of what we'd recognize as 'personality traits', after all, look at what happened with the Heretics.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 03 février 2010 - 03:55 .

[Inverness Moon]

lokiarchetype wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I wonder if the geth will merge into single personalities over time. seems like "legion" wouldnt be himself if a program was swapped out with a different one from the collective. he has developed individual quirks of personality.
I remember reading that ai like edi cant be copied because they require a set hardware to run on. puting them into a new quantum box would create a new personality due to differences of hardware.

It was specifically stated in the codex that geth are not like other AIs because geth are purely software and can be installed on any form of hardware without changing what they are.

The quirks could simply be from the Geth who's in charge of verbal/body communication.  They commune among themselves at the speed of light, and one is the designated representative who relays the info to you.

I would think that Legion's seperation from the rest of the geth and its unique persuit and eventual joining with Shepard has made it develop a bit differently than the rest of the geth. All the geth in Legion would have to share the quirks. I'm so interested in finding out why Legion won't tell you about why it decided to wear the N7 armor.

[lokiarchetype]

Inverness Moon wrote...



I would think that Legion's seperation from the rest of the geth and its unique persuit and eventual joining with Shepard has made it develop a bit differently than the rest of the geth. All the geth in Legion would have to share the quirks. I'm so interested in finding out why Legion won't tell you about why it decided to wear the N7 armor.

Ah yeah, I recently editted my post with reference to that.  The heretics separation showed that Geth can evolve quite a bit given isolation from the collective and they [Legion] have been by themselves for 2 years for the most part (sans accessing databases).

I think Legion simply has a hard time explaining it since it isn't out of sheer pragmatism.  "Admiration" seems like an odd quality for Geth to have, but you essentially killed a God in their eyes, and it was their job to learn about you, so its not surprising some interest and intrigue would develop.

(according to the CE artbook it wasn't actually a meaningful decision to include it at first, it was just for fun, but apparently they decided to run with it)

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 03 février 2010 - 04:02 .

[sarelis]

Inverness Moon wrote...

sarelis wrote...

I think there is this notion that keeping the base is the more "tactical" decision, but I didn't see it that way. All we know about that base was that it liquefied people to make a giant reaper. Say that TIM gets it, and starts liquefying aliens to make reapers. The aliens aren't going to be happy about that. Even if he didn't use it, even if he just studied it, aliens are going to find out that humans have this dangerous tech, and still aren't going to be too happy about it. Since most of the galaxy doesn't believe that the reapers are a threat, they might end up putting a whole bunch of effort in keeping the dangerous humans in check. Then, when those thousands of reapers show up, humans and aliens are already fighting/weakened, with no cohesive defense.

First of all you're making a pretty big assumption about what TIM gets it. Secondly, the idea of the aliens wanting to keep the humans in check is also a pretty big assumption. The council can't just start jumping on races just for having advanced technology, it is what that race does with that technolgoy that counts. And so many people here assume TIM will try to conquer the galaxy or some other cliched thing.

sarelis wrote...

I'm just saying, I don't think the aliens would stand idly by while humans fiddled about with the collector base-- especially not when it's Cerberus whose in charge of it all, since their name is mud.
TIM said that the base could be studied to learn more about the reapers, but there is no evidence of that, and he could just be saying it to manipulate you into giving him the base for his own purposes.

How would anyone else even know about the collector base exists?

There is also no evidence that the base wont yield more knowledge about the reapers. That is why we have to study it to know for certain.

sarelis wrote...

Besides, looking at all those ships, and knowing how many people it was going to take to build the giant reaper-human thing (i.e. all of earth), I doubt the one giant reaper would be as effective as having all the different alien species unite to take down the invasion. It just seems that numbers will matter more than one giant weapon that will take forever to build and loose us all of our allies.

You're assuming TIM wants to make a reaper like the collectors were doing, which is ridiculous imho.

sarelis wrote...

Anyway, I would say that just because TIM says he's going to study the base to help us understand the reapers doesn't mean that the base could actually help, and in the end you are basically giving a dangerous weapon to a group whose decisions in the past have been brutally single-minded. And also it would prove true the aliens' fears that humans will put other species at risk to empower themselves, which would be bad because then they REALLY wouldn't believe a word Shepard said. Shepard would be like, "No really, the reapers are coming! There's one right behind you!" and that one turian council guy would be like "You humans are always trying to cause trouble, I don't believe you."

That group is the only one that got off of their asses to do something about the collector threat, and one of the few, if any, that actually takes the reaper threat seriously that has the resources to do something about it.

A lot of this comes down to whether or not you trust TIM. When I first started playing, I didn't mind helping cerberus because, like you said, they were the only ones doing anything. But after listening to TIM say over and over  how he's for humanity, wants to secure humanity's place in the galaxy, etc. I grew suspicious, because it seemed more like he was concerned with humanities place in the galaxy and less about the reapers. I'm not saying he's trying to take over the galaxy, I'm just saying he seems really preoccupied with making humanity powerful. It doesn't help that throughout the entire game, it feels like nearly everyone you meet has some beef with Cerberus, and TIM and Miranda's weak excuses (oh that didn't go as planned, that got out of hand) did nothing to enamor me.
This is all relative of course-- you might have gotten a completley different vibe about TIMs motives.
Also, the base was a collector base, not a reaper ship. The whole point of the base was to make that reaper human thing-- all you see are pods and tubes and the big chamber for the human reaper itself. The whole point of the collectors were to create the human reaper. So to say that it's stupid to assume TIM would make some sort of attempt to create his own reaper is also a big assumption. Here is a guy who has spent the entire game talking about how he wants
to empower humans, and here is this crazy weapon with which to do it. If he were that desperate to find out about reaper technology, why wasn't he more interested in the actual reaper ship that we explore during the IFF mission? He wasn't too upset when that exploded.
Maybe the base did have tons of info about reapers and how to defeat them. All the same, you are giving what is essentially a dangerous weapon to someone with a shady past.
If it had been an actual reaper ship, I might have saved it. If we'd had the option of giving it to the Alliance, I definitley would have saved it. As it stands though, it was a collector giant-reaper-maker, and it was Cerberus, so I blew it up.

[tsd16]

RandomPot322 wrote...

Aren't the Geth portrayed not as villians in this game?
And the ones you fought before as Heretics and not True Geth. So how is saving them (making them true geths) bad?
Unless you assume Legion is lying too you. (which he seems not to understand why one would lie)

Think out of the box, what is to stop the reapers from introducing some sort of virus, or anything changing their mind, way i figured, the less geth the better.

[Inverness Moon]

sarelis wrote...

A lot of this comes down to whether or not you trust TIM. When I first started playing, I didn't mind helping cerberus because, like you said, they were the only ones doing anything. But after listening to TIM say over and over  how he's for humanity, wants to secure humanity's place in the galaxy, etc. I grew suspicious, because it seemed more like he was concerned with humanities place in the galaxy and less about the reapers. I'm not saying he's trying to take over the galaxy, I'm just saying he seems really preoccupied with making humanity powerful. It doesn't help that throughout the entire game, it feels like nearly everyone you meet has some beef with Cerberus, and TIM and Miranda's weak excuses (oh that didn't go as planned, that got out of hand) did nothing to enamor me.

Securing humanity's place in the galaxy requires that the reapers be destroyed. And since that is TIM's interest, there is no doubt he would be focused on destroying the reapers.

And you make think TIM and Miranda's excuses about the facilitiy on Pragia were weak but they were valid. The security records in that facility shows that they were hiding what they were really doing from TIM, they were rogue.

sarelis wrote...

This is all relative of course-- you might have gotten a completley different vibe about TIMs motives.
Also, the base was a collector base, not a reaper ship. The whole point of the base was to make that reaper human thing-- all you see are pods and tubes and the big chamber for the human reaper itself. The whole point of the collectors were to create the human reaper. So to say that it's stupid to assume TIM would make some sort of attempt to create his own reaper is also a big assumption. Here is a guy who has spent the entire game talking about how he wants to empower humans, and here is this crazy weapon with which to do it. If he were that desperate to find out about reaper technology, why wasn't he more interested in the actual reaper ship that we explore during the IFF mission? He wasn't too upset when that exploded.
Maybe the base did have tons of info about reapers and how to defeat them. All the same, you are giving what is essentially a dangerous weapon to someone with a shady past.
If it had been an actual reaper ship, I might have saved it. If we'd had the option of giving it to the Alliance, I definitley would have saved it. As it stands though, it was a collector giant-reaper-maker, and it was Cerberus, so I blew it up.

You're only assuming that the whole purpose of the base was to make the reaper, which I doubt. And even if that was the case, knowing how a reaper is made is a pretty good way to find out potential weaknesses.

Also, TIM using humans to make a reaper would go against his goal of making humanity the dominant power in the galaxy for two reasons. The first because making humanity dominant by killing them by the thousands is counterproductive. Secondly because that would draw far too much attention (leading to retaliation) and is an unsustainable path to power unless he wants to get into the business of growing humans like in The Matrix.

If TIM wouldn't even saction what was done to Subject Zero on Pragia, what makes you think he would saction the creation of a reaper using human lives? Using any other races would also gain far too much attention and could unite the galaxy against Cerberus or humanity. TIM holds the belief that the ends justify the means and that history will exonerate Cerberus, but the whole reaper thing is on a different level entirely.

And an actual reaper ship is more dangerous than the collector base, because we know for certain that they can indoctrinate people. I doubt the collector base does the same, because the collectors use it and are most likely designed to be controlled by the collector general in a way that does not require an indoctrination that degrades mental processes.

[Inverness Moon]

Bump, because I didn't type all that for nothing.