86 réponses à ce sujet

[Arelyte]

I couldn't do it. I more or less begged Garrus to perforate his skull. Anyone who messes with Garrus messes with Shepard.

[Eradyn]

tmp7704 wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

And yes, he is conflicted; most people would be, I think.  He admits that he can handle black and white, but shades of gray are difficult for him.  That's where the conflict lay.

That part of dialogue made little sense imo, given there is hardly any 'shades of grey' there to speak of. Like the writers were forced to come up with some sort of reasoning why Garrus would comply with Shepard's inane whim to mash the 'paragon route' button and simply couldn't come up with anything sensible. Which given the situation is quite understandable.

Your opinion. *shrug* While I have no love for Sidonis, I didn't plead with Garrus for Sidonis' sake but for Garrus'.  People just have different perspectives...and Garrus dialogue post-mission makes sense to me considering the circumstances of that choice (and the events that followed).

[Splinter Cell 108]

InvaderErl wrote...

Imagine if during Dragon Age (for those that played it), somebody had stopped you moments before killing Arl Howe and told you not to do it because it would lead you down a dark road. You would have promptly told them to shut the **** up and killed the bastard.

I almost always look for a peaceful way out even if it's someone like Arl Howe. I'd rather let him live than kill him, he will still suffer. If prisons are horrible today imagine what the Middle Ages' prisons must have been like. I didn't leave Sidonis alive for Sidonis, I did it for Garrus. I wouldn't want ot see him regretting it and having one more mistake to worry about.

[tmp7704]

Eradyn wrote...

Your opinion. *shrug* While I have no love for Sidonis, I didn't plead with Garrus for Sidonis' sake but for Garrus'.

That's mainly what i mean. Trying to influence the guy's decision "so he doesn't fall to the dark side"* strikes me as anything but 'shades of grey'. But then mind you i don't see why serving a traitor proper punishment is supposed to be wrong thing in the first place so, well.

*) that being one of typically provided explanations. The other "i did it so he wouldn't feel bad about shooting that guy" is just too arrogant to consider seriously.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 février 2010 - 03:42 .

[Eradyn]

tmp7704 wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

Your opinion. *shrug* While I have no love for Sidonis, I didn't plead with Garrus for Sidonis' sake but for Garrus'.

That's mainly what i mean. Trying to influence the guy's decision "so he doesn't fall to the dark side"* strikes me as anything but 'shades of grey'. But then mind you i don't see why serving a traitor proper punishment is supposed to be wrong thing in the first place so, well.

*) that being one of typically provided explanations. The other "i did it so he wouldn't feel bad about shooting that guy" is just too arrogant to consider seriously.

Just because you can't see the shades of gray doesn't mean they aren't there.  Ultimately, it's up to Garrus where he wants to go (light side/dark side are over-used, imo), but as his friend I certainly wouldn't stand by the wayside watching him shoulder this burden and go down a path quite unlike him without trying to help him.  Again: it was in Garrus' hands, and ultimately he decided not to kill Sidonis in my game.  Game mechanics aside, in-universe he did.

Modifié par Eradyn, 03 février 2010 - 03:47 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Didn't you guys hear the newcast that states that Sidonis later handed himself in to C-Sec for the assisted murders of the other members of Garrus' team?

He obviously feels guilty as crap. Just like in GTA4, it's actually more of a punishment to leave him alive. Petty revenge should be beneath Garrus, as well.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Didn't you guys hear the newcast that states that Sidonis later handed himself in to C-Sec for the assisted murders of the other members of Garrus' team?
He obviously feels guilty as crap. Just like in GTA4, it's actually more of a punishment to leave him alive. Petty revenge should be beneath Garrus, as well.

Sedonis assists in the murder of 10 good men under Garrus' command, and you're calling getting him petty revenge? That guy deserved a bullet to the head a lot more than some of the bad guys in ME 2.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 03 février 2010 - 05:10 .

[Eradyn]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Didn't you guys hear the newcast that states that Sidonis later handed himself in to C-Sec for the assisted murders of the other members of Garrus' team?
He obviously feels guilty as crap. Just like in GTA4, it's actually more of a punishment to leave him alive. Petty revenge should be beneath Garrus, as well.

Sedonis assists in the murder of 10 good men under Garrus' command, and you're calling getting him petty revenge? That guy deserved a bullet to the head a lot more than some of the bad guys in ME 2.

I prefer the far more twisted revenge of letting him rot in a cell while eaten away by his obviously deep-seated guilt.  He practically begged for death and I was happy to help convince Garrus otherwise.  Had he not been plagued with guilt, killing him outright would have been far more of a justice to Garrus' team.  I can be quite sadistic deep down, and it was my goal to see him get the most painful punishment for his crime.  Thankfully that lined up with pleading with Garrus to spare my fave turian a long walk down a very dark path that would only bring him more burdens.  It all worked out for my purposes.

Modifié par Eradyn, 03 février 2010 - 05:15 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Eradyn wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Didn't you guys hear the newcast that states that Sidonis later handed himself in to C-Sec for the assisted murders of the other members of Garrus' team?
He obviously feels guilty as crap. Just like in GTA4, it's actually more of a punishment to leave him alive. Petty revenge should be beneath Garrus, as well.

Sedonis assists in the murder of 10 good men under Garrus' command, and you're calling getting him petty revenge? That guy deserved a bullet to the head a lot more than some of the bad guys in ME 2.

I prefer the far more twisted revenge of letting him rot in a cell while eaten away by his guilt.  Had he not been plagued with guilt, killing him outright would have been far more of a justice to Garrus' team.  I can be quite sadistic deep down, and it was my goal to see him get the most painful punishment for his crime.  Thankfully that lined up with pleading with Garrus to spare him a long walk down a very dark path that would only bring him more burdens.  It all worked out for my purposes.

You lucked out. Garrus left C-Sec for many things, one of which was revolving door prisons. There was simply no way for you to know whether or not Sedonis would get out for some BS reason.

[Lmaoboat]

I didn't let him take the shot. Luring a defenses, guilt-riddled man into a trap to be executed didn't seem like justice.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Lmaoboat wrote...

I didn't let him take the shot. Luring a defenses, guilt-riddled man into a trap to be executed didn't seem like justice.

No, it would be far better off to let someone go who helped murder 10 good men. Wtf?

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 03 février 2010 - 05:30 .

[Eradyn]

Lmaoboat wrote...

I didn't let him take the shot. Luring a defenses, guilt-riddled man into a trap to be executed didn't seem like justice.

You're right; it was unadulterated revenge.  I prefer the "paragon" option more, but I can definitely understand the attraction of letting Garrus finish him off.

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

You lucked out. Garrus left
C-Sec for many things, one of which was revolving door prisons. There
was simply no way for you to know whether or not Sedonis would get out
for some BS reason.

It wasn't about "revolving door prisons," it was about politics hindering his ability to do his job and then the council's attempts at covering up the Sovereign/geth/Saren/Reapers thing and trashing Shepard post-mortem.  Sidonis does turn himself in willingly, btw. *shrug*

Modifié par Eradyn, 03 février 2010 - 05:32 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Eradyn wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

I didn't let him take the shot. Luring a defenses, guilt-riddled man into a trap to be executed didn't seem like justice.

You're right; it was unadulterated revenge.  I prefer the "paragon" option more, but I can definitely understand the attraction of letting Garrus finish him off.

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

You lucked out. Garrus left
C-Sec for many things, one of which was revolving door prisons. There
was simply no way for you to know whether or not Sedonis would get out
for some BS reason.

It wasn't about "revolving door prisons," it was about politics hindering his ability to do his job and then the council's attempts at covering up the Sovereign/geth/Saren/Reapers thing and trashing Shepard post-mortem.  Sidonis does turn himself in willingly, btw. *shrug*

Talk to Garrus in front of C-Sec. He specifically states "revolving door prisons" as one of the many reasons that he left. Sidonis turning himself in is irrelevant due to you not knowing what he is going to do after you warn him. I can't believe so many of you would let a guy like Sidonis go without even knowing what his reaction to the warning is going to be. The guy deserved a bullet to the head and nothing more.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 03 février 2010 - 05:36 .

[Eradyn]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

I didn't let him take the shot. Luring a defenses, guilt-riddled man into a trap to be executed didn't seem like justice.

You're right; it was unadulterated revenge.  I prefer the "paragon" option more, but I can definitely understand the attraction of letting Garrus finish him off.

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

You lucked out. Garrus left
C-Sec for many things, one of which was revolving door prisons. There
was simply no way for you to know whether or not Sedonis would get out
for some BS reason.

It wasn't about "revolving door prisons," it was about politics hindering his ability to do his job and then the council's attempts at covering up the Sovereign/geth/Saren/Reapers thing and trashing Shepard post-mortem.  Sidonis does turn himself in willingly, btw. *shrug*

Talk to Garrus in front of C-Sec. He specifically states "revolving door prisons" as one of the many reasons that he left. Sidonis turning himself in is irrelevant due to you not knowing what he is going to do. I can't believe so many of you would let a guy like Sidonis go. The guy deserved a bullet to the head and nothing more.

Just because you cannot comprehend our reasons does not make them illegitimate.  I understand why people are so quick to jump on the "kill Sidonis" bandwagon.  It's a perfectly understandable reaction.  The reasons for those who urge Garrus to not do so are also equally understandable, even if you and others cannot grasp them.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Eradyn wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

I didn't let him take the shot. Luring a defenses, guilt-riddled man into a trap to be executed didn't seem like justice.

You're right; it was unadulterated revenge.  I prefer the "paragon" option more, but I can definitely understand the attraction of letting Garrus finish him off.

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

You lucked out. Garrus left
C-Sec for many things, one of which was revolving door prisons. There
was simply no way for you to know whether or not Sedonis would get out
for some BS reason.

It wasn't about "revolving door prisons," it was about politics hindering his ability to do his job and then the council's attempts at covering up the Sovereign/geth/Saren/Reapers thing and trashing Shepard post-mortem.  Sidonis does turn himself in willingly, btw. *shrug*

Talk to Garrus in front of C-Sec. He specifically states "revolving door prisons" as one of the many reasons that he left. Sidonis turning himself in is irrelevant due to you not knowing what he is going to do. I can't believe so many of you would let a guy like Sidonis go. The guy deserved a bullet to the head and nothing more.

Just because you cannot comprehend our reasons does not make them illegitimate.  I understand why people are so quick to jump on the "kill Sidonis" bandwagon.  It's a perfectly understandable reaction.  The reasons for those who urge Garrus to not do so are also equally understandable, even if you and others cannot grasp them.

There is nothing to grasp about faulty reasoning. The "Let Sidonis Go" players have yet to make a substantiated argument about allowing a murderer of Garrus' comrades go with a warning when they have no idea how he will react.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 03 février 2010 - 05:43 .

[Eradyn]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

There is nothing to grasp about faulty reasoning. The "Let Sidonis Go" players have yet to make a substantiated argument about allowing a murderer of Garrus' comrades go with a warning when they have no idea how he will react.

There is nothing "faulty" with my personal reasoning.  I have analyzed my own motivations enough to where I am comfortably self-assured that I made the right decision for myself in my game.  Just because you cannot grasp it doesn't mean it is faulty...it just means you are incapable of comprehending it.  I'm starting to find it amusing how you are, at least it appears this way, becoming so upset with what others do in their games.

And "making substantiated arguments?" I don't believe I, or anyone else in these forums and elsewhere, owe you any explanation whatsoever, nor are we required to explain it.  Frankly, it isn't your place.

Modifié par Eradyn, 03 février 2010 - 05:52 .

[Lmaoboat]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

I didn't let him take the shot. Luring a defenses, guilt-riddled man into a trap to be executed didn't seem like justice.

You're right; it was unadulterated revenge.  I prefer the "paragon" option more, but I can definitely understand the attraction of letting Garrus finish him off.

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

You lucked out. Garrus left
C-Sec for many things, one of which was revolving door prisons. There
was simply no way for you to know whether or not Sedonis would get out
for some BS reason.

It wasn't about "revolving door prisons," it was about politics hindering his ability to do his job and then the council's attempts at covering up the Sovereign/geth/Saren/Reapers thing and trashing Shepard post-mortem.  Sidonis does turn himself in willingly, btw. *shrug*

Talk to Garrus in front of C-Sec. He specifically states "revolving door prisons" as one of the many reasons that he left. Sidonis turning himself in is irrelevant due to you not knowing what he is going to do. I can't believe so many of you would let a guy like Sidonis go. The guy deserved a bullet to the head and nothing more.

Just because you cannot comprehend our reasons does not make them illegitimate.  I understand why people are so quick to jump on the "kill Sidonis" bandwagon.  It's a perfectly understandable reaction.  The reasons for those who urge Garrus to not do so are also equally understandable, even if you and others cannot grasp them.

There is nothing to grasp about faulty reasoning. The "Let Sidonis Go" players have yet to make a substantiated argument about allowing a murderer of Garrus' comrades go with a warning when they have no idea how he will react.

Because shooting an unarmed and remorseful man in the head isn't justice, it's revenge. Killing solves nothing, and makes Garrus guilty of murder. He wasn't some scumbag who casually turned his squadmates in for cash, his only crime was being weak, and I'm not going to punish someone like that in such a cowardly manner.

Modifié par Lmaoboat, 03 février 2010 - 05:52 .

[tmp7704]

Eradyn wrote...

Just because you can't see the shades of gray doesn't mean they aren't there.

Certainly; perhaps someone might be able to point them out one day.

Ultimately, it's up to Garrus where he wants to go (light side/dark side are over-used, imo), but as his friend I certainly wouldn't stand by the wayside watching him shoulder this burden and go down a path quite unlike him without trying to help him.

Again though, how exactly is punishing a traitor a "path unlike him" when he specifically tells you he's always hated injustice? Or "wrong" path to go at all, when even the man himself openly admits he wishes to be dead? (and actually thanks you should you let the shot happen)

And let's not forget Garrus and his group had been punishing criminals of Omega in the same manner before Shepard showed up, bringing justice where no one else would. Was that activity also "unlike him" and something he should be discouraged from, also to "help" him?

[tmp7704]

Lmaoboat wrote...

Because shooting an unarmed and remorseful man in the head isn't justice, it's revenge.

The prisoners on death row are also executed unarmed and often remorseful. Do you also consider it "revenge not justice" because of these factors?

[Eradyn]

tmp7704 wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

Just because you can't see the shades of gray doesn't mean they aren't there.

Certainly; perhaps someone might be able to point them out one day.

You're welcome to ask Garrus; he's the one who mentioned "shades of gray."

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Lmaoboat wrote...
Because shooting an unarmed and remorseful man in the head isn't justice, it's revenge.

You keep spouting off "it's not justice, it's not justice", but you have yet to define what Justice is. I say it is getting payback for the murder of 10 good men certainly is. Prison is full of "unarmed and remorseful" men; are you going to let them go too?

Killing solves nothing, and makes Garrus guilty of murder.

It does solve something; Sidonis is no longer a free man and 10 dead men are repaid for. And Garrus is not guilty of anything-look up justifiable homicide.

He wasn't
some scumbag who casually turned his squadmates in for cash, his only
crime was being weak, and I'm not going to punish someone like that in
such a cowardly manner.

lol, he wasn't a scumbag? What the heck fits your definition of a scumbag then?

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 03 février 2010 - 06:02 .

[tmp7704]

Eradyn wrote...

You're welcome to ask Garrus; he's the one who mentioned "shades of gray."

So basically you have no idea yourself what he meant by that, either?

[aaniadyen]

I played a fully paragon Shepard except for that one part. I let him take the shot 'cause Garrus has been with Shepard a long time. He's old enough to make his own decisions and I wasn't about to hold it against him after what Sedonis did.

[Hatem]

Samara once said something like "if you are about to kill a man because he's done something bad, would you really want to know that he is a devoted father?"

It's basically the same situation here. Ten people died because of him and no matter how bad he feels and how much he regrets it, it won't bring those men back to their families. I mostly play paragon characters because I'm evil-impaired, but Sidonis gets his bullet every single time.

[Eradyn]

tmp7704 wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

You're welcome to ask Garrus; he's the one who mentioned "shades of gray."

So basically you have no idea yourself what he meant by that, either?

I know very well what Garrus meant and I'm very comfortable in that understanding.  But I'm not required or driven to explain it to those who repeatedly refuse to even accept the possibility of there being a valid and equally legitimate reason for an action/opinion contrary to their own.  It isn't their place to make such laughable demands.

When people were more interested in honest discussion, I was more amenable to explaining my pov.  Now I see that it isn't about discussion but about something more childish and bordering trolling.  So...I no longer feel compelled to explain things that have been alluded to by others (and myself) already since honest discourse is no longer the apparent goal.