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New York Times gives middling review to ME2


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#301
WarlockSoL

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Wow, I can't believe I read most of this topic.... Anyways, obviously the game has a very polarizing effect - either you love the changes or you hate them. Personally, I think that is ok. That's all opinion, and neither is really invalid (with some exceptions - anyone claiming ME1's inventory system was good is a liar).

Personally, I like the changes. There are some things that could be improved still (I still haven't decided how I feel about ammo), but that is always the case and it was definately the case with ME1 as well. *In my opinion* the refinements and reduction of skills (while at the same time improving them and making them fairly unique) tightens up the gameplay so there is a more tactical feel to combat. Your skills are feel more significant and important this time around. Again, this is *my opinion* and if others disagree, that's perfectly fine.

I do think the review is slightly unfair in criticising BioWare for these changes as "playing it safe" when in fact they shook up the design quite significantly here. Love them or hate them, these are not "safe" changes. They are refinements of the original design, based on feedback and new ideas (well, new for the series anyways).

I will however strongly disagree with the complaints that somehow the game is shallow now (as far as story/characters/etc go). This has been discussed to death already so I won't go into it too much (and really, Orogenic should stop posting if he's just going to troll anyone who disagrees with him without offering any actual rebuttle). I will concede that maybe there are a few too many characters and thus one or two may get lost in the shuffle, though I still feel their loyalty missions are *all* fantastic and give more insight into each character than most of ME1 gave (and incidentally, ME1 did have three loyalty missions, one of which actually had a similar impact on the gameplay! Though none of which actually required you to bring the character in question and thus weren't super deep). But overall, the story feels great and in fact the writing feels vastly improved to me. Also, I did like ME1's ending (and yes, the first time I saw it I did describe it as "epic"). I don't think ME2's ending is quite that strong (which I will attribute to Saren just being a great character), but I liked it as well.

Modifié par WarlockSoL, 03 février 2010 - 06:56 .


#302
Azreliam

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People still read the New York Times? Or more importantly, they care about what it says?

#303
Orogenic

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WarlockSoL wrote...
 Orogenic should stop posting if he's just going to troll anyone who disagrees with him without offering any actual rebuttle.


I'll happily take your advice if you can provide one single example where I did not provide a specific response to a counterpoint offered by another.

My crusade here honestly has more to do with defending civil discourse than supporting any particualr opinion of the game.  I'm just amazed at the level of hostility people demonstrate toward differing opinions.

I went back and double checked, I don't see a single charge that I failed to respond to.. if you see something by all means post it here.

How can I be a troll if I fully support everyone's right to his own opinion?

#304
WarlockSoL

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Orogenic wrote...

WarlockSoL wrote...
 Orogenic should stop posting if he's just going to troll anyone who disagrees with him without offering any actual rebuttle.


I'll happily take your advice if you can provide one single example where I did not provide a specific response to a counterpoint offered by another.

My crusade here honestly has more to do with defending civil discourse than supporting any particualr opinion of the game.  I'm just amazed at the level of hostility people demonstrate toward differing opinions.

I went back and double checked, I don't see a single charge that I failed to respond to.. if you see something by all means post it here.

How can I be a troll if I fully support everyone's right to his own opinion?


You never responded to anything newcomplex said - you just kept accusing him of insulting you and being dropped on his head as a baby. 

But I'm not getting into this argument so that's the last I'm saying on it.

#305
spock06

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curb stomping people in gears of war is fun they should add tht feature to MASS EFFECT

#306
Orogenic

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Orogenic wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Orogenic wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Where are you getting all this two demionshionality from.   Seriously.   Tali had ONE CONVERSATIONS THE ENTIRE GAME, AND GARUSS HAD TWO.

Your imagining their personalities when a significant in game one simply did not exist.   In ME2, almost all characters have fully fleshed out back stories.   Also, I just flat out disagree when you say they are "one demensional".   Each character sort of is presented to you as a stereotypical ramboing badass, and each develop into deep complex characters with their own motivations.   


Yelling? Personal insults? Gross inaccuracies? Typical.

Young poster? Perhaps.

Take seriously? Doubtful.

Salarians process emotional conflicts much more rapidly than humans....

....

Seriously?   You can't yell over the Internet, and at what point in what point do I make a personal insult?

If your not willing to defend a opinion, don't bother posting it.    Read my post carefully, at what point do I make ANY insult towards you?   I think its hilarious too, because you just previously posted: 


caps = yelling

calling me delusional = personal insult

one conversation with Tali?  Everyone knows this is hogwash.

have a nice day


Specifically responded to each point here.. searching further....

#307
Orogenic

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Orogenic wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

 Your literally imagining themes and complexity where none existed.   


Were you dropped on your head as a child?

For the love of god, please look up delusional and apply said definition to your above statement. 

I'm leaving this thread before my  IQ starts to drop.

Have a nice day.


Specifically responded here.

I said he was being insulting, specifically by insinuating that I was delusional.  I referenced the definition of delusional and provided a specific example of his behavior.  How could I respond in a more precise fashion?

#308
spock06

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i thought you said you were leaving...

#309
Thompson family

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13 pages of back-and-forth because one guy's review agreed with the vocal minority.



And no, I don't read any of these threads anymore.

#310
Orogenic

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newcomplex wrote...

Orogenic wrote...

Spin****e wrote...

Agent_Dark_ wrote...

Veex wrote...

BioWare challenging itself to new heights would be to repeatedly make single player RPGs?

YEAH MASS EFFECT 2 SHOULD HAVE BEEN MOAR LIEK FALLOUT 3 THAT IS TRU RPG COS I HAV ITEMZ





Lol, that's what I think anytime someone complains about ME2.




If this is true then it is clear that none of you understands some of our criticisms of the game on even the most basic levels.

You are, however, quite good at rude and stupid insults that make you look worse than the intended targets.

This is actually both good and funny, so keep up the good work.


wow...

I heard acting like a pretentious douchebag is going to make Bioware address your concerns legitimately.     

And that my friend, is a personal attack.    


What is the proper response to being called a douchebag? Get back to me on that one.

#311
WarlockSoL

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I don't think responding to his response to you badmouthing him really counts...

#312
spock06

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LOL OROGENIC YOUR LANGUAGE SKILLZ PWN OMG CAN I LICK UR BALLZZ UR SO SMART AND R U A WRITER OR SOMETHIN??

#313
Orogenic

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newcomplex wrote...

Orogenic wrote...
This is really getting to you, isn't it?

Read you own words and think about it.  Maybe some other good soul on the forum will explain it to you, but I've alredy wasted enough time on this.


You
a)Haven't pointed out how anything I said was offensive
b)Nor did you address any of my points, neither pointing out any specific theme/character/event/plot device that is less complex in ME2, or refute how Tali and Garrus both have rediculously low dialogue options in the original.

instead you spent the last 5 posts mocking me.  

Jokes on you lol.


You expect me to keep beating this dead horse? Seriously?

#314
Orogenic

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WarlockSoL wrote...

I don't think responding to his response to you badmouthing him really counts...


It is quite clear that I only responded to his initial insults.. which is all I've ever done on this forum.  Quite frankly, more people SHOULD stand up to the rampant disrespect commonly demonstrated here.

I'm sure it's a cultural thing, so hard to really place blame... but it is fun to get into on many levels.  Interesting as well.

#315
TrojanGuy

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Very interesting review. I can definitely see where the reviewer is coming from, despite the fact that I'm thoroughly enjoying ME2.

#316
Ahglock

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Adeph wrote...

For Humanity wrote...

Adeph wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Reviewers are people like you and me, everyone has different tastes and opinions


We have a winner, people have opinions and those differ.

For example the Guardian newspaper in the UK, another very respected broadsheet, gave Mass Effect 2 5/5. I guess the reviewer got paid then? it's impossible, like an awful lot of other people, he simply thinks ME2 is a stunning game.

Anyone that gives out a perfect score has zero credibility and needs to look up the definition of perfect before reviewing again.


This is where you people go so very wrong and if you read these publications you would know that they don't use 5/5 or 10/10 to denote a 'perfect' game as there will never be any such thing they use it to highlight brilliant games which have that extra something in them.

GamesTM

The Illusive ten is reserved for games of incredible, irrefutable quality, but please be aware that a score of ten in no way professes to mean perfection. Perfection is an unattainable goal, and on a ten point scale nothing should be unattainable 

Anyone that aims to give such sweeping generalisations without even reading the piece they are criticising has zero credibility and need to research what they are dismissing out of hand.

See what I did there? isn't the internet fun!



The problem is if you read the reviews of most if not all perfect score games it is fairly obvious the flaws are large enough that they should not be getting that 10/10.  Yes perfection is immpossible, but when 1/4 of the game sucks balls you don't give it a 10/10.  In ME2 the bast majority of the reviews talk about how things like scanning and other mini-games totally suck ass.  They take up about 1/4 of your play time how the eff do you give something a 10/10 if 1/4 of the play time sucks.  The answer is if you are giving an honest review you don't.  This is hardly a ME2 phenomina, game reviewers give fantastically overrated reviews all the time.  Any time a game does't blow they are so shocked they throw out 9.5s and other absurdly high scores. 

Look at basic flaws of ME2
Scanning boring as hell and takes up a large chunk of the game.
linear, on a almost ridiculous scale.  There is very little choice in what you do next.  Get mordin, oh look now 3 more options popped look how many choices you have 3....  And when you get to the mission here is a hallway follow it to the end, and once you are done poof you are back on the normandy.(ME 1 wasn't any better in the follow the hallway aspect of the missions)
Balance is only really achieved at the normal difficulty which is so pathetically easy it hurts.
Very few side missions outside of fedex ones.  Oh no the slaver can't sell the girl to to company X, walk 10 feet and talk to company X..yeah that aint a real side quest.
(I wont mention things like weapon customization, since that is more preference than actually solidly bad.)

Still
The story is top notch
The characters and character development is interesting
While the dialogue tree isn't perfect, it is better than most.(I know I got irritated in the intro and I select, that is an order and I say I'll drag Joker's crippled ass out of there.  Whiskey tango, that isn't even close to that's an order)
Action is awesome
Solid gameplay with good 3rd person shooter elements
An interesting leveling system(not my favorite but soilid and can require tough choices)
Good music
Great graphics
It can also be a pro-but linear and easy to follow you don't get mired down in endless sandbox style quests, where you eventurally get bored and don't somplete the game.(oblivion I'm talking to you)

Since I have multiple flaws that actually effect the gameplay and aren't something minor like sound or graphics I really could not give it a 10/10.  But since it is a fun game with overall great gamplay I would give it a really good score, like a 8.5 out of 10. 

#317
Ahglock

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TrojanGuy wrote...

Very interesting review. I can definitely see where the reviewer is coming from, despite the fact that I'm thoroughly enjoying ME2.


Since he gave it a 8.5, so did the reviewer.

#318
trumpedo

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super agree with this. bioware listen up here.

#319
newcomplex

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Orogenic wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

This review was right on the money. It seems to be the only review I've read that was written by someone that really loved ME1.

There is no question that ME2 is a great game. The problem is it does not feel like a spiritual successor to ME1 which was awesome.

I will probably go back and replay ME1 a couple more times, but I doubt I'll even bother with a second playthrough of ME2.


I don't really follow this. The "spirit" of ME1 was undoubtedly in its storytelling. ME2, for whatever differences it has, certainly continues telling that great story.


Ponder this...

After Luke Skywalker was awarded his medal for blowing up the Deathstar, he died in a freak landspeeder accident.

Darth Vader found his dessicated remains a couple years later and reconstituted him (sort of like a sea monkey).

After his revitalization, Luke decides that Darth and his Empire buddies really aren't as bad as he thought....

In fact, they actually have the best interests of the human race at heart. 

It turns out Han Solo really WAS a two-bit criminal and Princess Leia is a tree-hugging space hippie.

Luke gets his own star destroyer and heads out to show the galaxy what human domination is all about.....



Sound like a story you'd like to hear?


Cerebrus isn't the antagonist of ME1, the reapers are.    Second, the reapers killed you, not a random accident.

Also, you've still failed to address either of my points.

lol.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 03 février 2010 - 08:16 .


#320
newcomplex

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jtd00123 wrote...

The reviewer's belated assessment for some reason reeks of bitterness. Not sure why, maybe he is just upset that the game is doing so well.

I keep hearing the phrase respectable publication in this thread. The NYTimes as a respectable publication (which is debatable) does not exactly give it more merit. It is a person's opinion that works for the NYTimes, a publication that specializes in telling the news. Most of the good reviews come from sources that specialize in gaming. Is this reviewer really more reliable in EGM, Gamepro, etc.? C'mon, use your head, it's one person. And based on the content of what he is downgrading the game on, he is really not any more credible than the rest of us.

Don't get me wrong, the game does have its flaws, but the reviewer is criticizing a path that Bioware has took since it hit the consoles. The "RPG" elements that have been dumb down have been expanded in other areas (conversation and story-branching). As a member here has pointed out, the simplification of inventory and leveling has already been done in the original Mass Effect, and IMO every console RPG Bioware has done. If you hate ME2 based off that logic, you should probably hate every Bioware game since KOTOR.


lol, thats the part I found funny.    But I actually agree with the objective points of the review, the tone made me laugh. 

#321
Veex

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Orogenic wrote...

My crusade here honestly has more to do with defending civil discourse than supporting any particualr opinion of the game.  I'm just amazed at the level of hostility people demonstrate toward differing opinions.


You can't trumpet defending civil discourse when you stoop to insults anytime someone disagrees with you. Saying you're nostalgic and imagining Tali having more dialogue than she did, which is what newcomplex said, isn't an insult. Tali does in fact only have one dialogue sequence on the Normandy. You never addressed that point.

You are not interested in civil discourse, or you would have answered the point relevant to Mass Effect rather than trying to blatantly insult him.

#322
newcomplex

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Orogenic wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

In the first game Shep, the best human soldier in the galaxy couldnt aim a sniper rifle or hit anything else 2/3rds of the time.

I love progression and char dev as much as the next person, but for a game involving guns where a soldier is already the Elite of the Elite it makes little sense to progress Accuacy of Stability


So once again, by your logic all combat soldiers are snipers?  I thought it added a bit of realisim that your character had to "develop" familiarity with different weapon types to be skilled with them... and that spending points on these skills would take away other potential benefits.  For instance, I liked the fact that you couldn't have an expert marksman who was also a master of conversation with maxed out charm.

To each his own.


All soldiers recieve basic training in sharpshooting, as well as the art of feild craft and reconaissance within a year in the military, all backgrounds for shepherd set him/her up as an elite and warworn soldier.     The core differentiate between an experienced soldier is not the former value of sharpshooting, but the latter values of feildcraft, camoflauge and recon expertise.  

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about.     I suggest you drop the pretentious know-it-all condescending attitude you put on yourself, and join a legitimate discussion, instead of calling everyone who disagrees with you flamers, and ignoring refutations of your points, or leave.

You're not championing your case to bioware that ME3 should cater towards your gameplay tastes by acting like a sophomoric douchebag, who dismisses any opposing point as a troll or a flame, while dishing out condescending remarks at the same time.     If you'd like to prove me wrong, feel free to address the dozen of so perfectly valid points which you've dismissed as flames.   


Orogenic wrote...

Orogenic wrote...

newcomplex
wrote...

 Your literally imagining themes and complexity where
none existed.   


Were you dropped on your head as a
child?

For the love of god, please look up delusional and apply
said definition to your above statement. 

I'm leaving this
thread before my  IQ starts to drop.

Have a nice day.


Specifically responded here.

I said he was being insulting, specifically by insinuating that I was delusional.  I referenced the definition of
delusional and provided a specific example of his behavior.  How could I respond in a more precise fashion?


No, I was not insinuating you were dillusional.   Imaginings and Delusion carry different heft in the language we call english.   Just because words are synonyms of each other does not mean they are analogues of each
other.   When I say you are imagining things because of nostalgia, that in no way shape or form infers you are delusional.    All civility on my part goes out the window when you suggest I was mentally damaged as a child, then flame me four consecutive posts, without actually referencing in any way shape or form my original points.

You've gotten people who actually agree with your core points to dislike your posts.   Good job!   That requires effort.


Second of all, regardless of your percieved level of insult, which clearly IS a delusion, because nobody seems to agree with you, debasing my argument because I "insulted you" (by saying you were imagining things), you fail to respond to my points on that basis alone.   That is literally the textbook definition of the fallacy "Ad hominem"

Finally, as a previous poster posted, are you DENYING that you imagined things?   Because the fact that Tali only has one formal dialogue sequence is in no way shape or form a falsehood.    That can only result in one logical conclusion.    That you did, indeed, imagine having more then one conversation with tali.    I don't understand how I can put that any nicer.   

You can of course, continue to flame me, say I'm insulting you, troll, whatever.    The point is irrelevent to me.    The point of a public forum isn't to gain smug self satisfaction from trying to insinuate you're more civil, more mature, and intellectually superior to everyone who disagrees with you, and to try to gain pleasure from that (rather pathetic) mode of thinking.   

The point of this forum as it relates to physical events is its a means to shape public opinion, especially in regards to the development of ME3, and the public opinion about the state of ME2, and to try to influence bioware in those regards as well.     (its also a place to socialize, but I don't think any of that is going on here lol).      By acting like a pretentious douchebag, without actually addressing any of the concerns raised against your argument, all you're doing is ensuring none of your concerns are being looked at legitimately by bioware, or the community as a large.     

Modifié par newcomplex, 03 février 2010 - 08:30 .


#323
Ahglock

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Veex wrote...

Orogenic wrote...

My crusade here honestly has more to do with defending civil discourse than supporting any particualr opinion of the game.  I'm just amazed at the level of hostility people demonstrate toward differing opinions.


You can't trumpet defending civil discourse when you stoop to insults anytime someone disagrees with you. Saying you're nostalgic and imagining Tali having more dialogue than she did, which is what newcomplex said, isn't an insult. Tali does in fact only have one dialogue sequence on the Normandy. You never addressed that point.

You are not interested in civil discourse, or you would have answered the point relevant to Mass Effect rather than trying to blatantly insult him.


Huh??/

Every character had more than 1 dialogue sequence, after every major quest you could retalk to everyone and get more conversations from them.  Nothing massive sure, but it was there.  I think ME2 has more character building conversations with each teammate, but Tali did have more than 1 in ME1.  Since she wasn't a love interest it wasn't as large as Ash or the other love interests.

#324
Ahglock

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newcomplex wrote...

Orogenic wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

In the first game Shep, the best human soldier in the galaxy couldnt aim a sniper rifle or hit anything else 2/3rds of the time.

I love progression and char dev as much as the next person, but for a game involving guns where a soldier is already the Elite of the Elite it makes little sense to progress Accuacy of Stability


So once again, by your logic all combat soldiers are snipers?  I thought it added a bit of realisim that your character had to "develop" familiarity with different weapon types to be skilled with them... and that spending points on these skills would take away other potential benefits.  For instance, I liked the fact that you couldn't have an expert marksman who was also a master of conversation with maxed out charm.

To each his own.


All soldiers recieve basic training in sharpshooting, as well as the art of feild craft and reconaissance within a year in the military, all backgrounds for shepherd set him/her up as an elite and warworn soldier.    

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about.    


This I am going to agree with, they honestly didn't have to do much(and ME2 you just can't equip it isn't much better).  But a soldier would at least be proficient in the skill(effectively 1 point), marksman no, but can hold a rifle and shoot straight.  I loved missing with a shotgun at point blank range, it was fun. :unsure:

#325
newcomplex

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Ahglock wrote...

Veex wrote...

Orogenic wrote...

My crusade here honestly has more to do with defending civil discourse than supporting any particualr opinion of the game.  I'm just amazed at the level of hostility people demonstrate toward differing opinions.


You can't trumpet defending civil discourse when you stoop to insults anytime someone disagrees with you. Saying you're nostalgic and imagining Tali having more dialogue than she did, which is what newcomplex said, isn't an insult. Tali does in fact only have one dialogue sequence on the Normandy. You never addressed that point.

You are not interested in civil discourse, or you would have answered the point relevant to Mass Effect rather than trying to blatantly insult him.


Huh??/

Every character had more than 1 dialogue sequence, after every major quest you could retalk to everyone and get more conversations from them.  Nothing massive sure, but it was there.  I think ME2 has more character building conversations with each teammate, but Tali did have more than 1 in ME1.  Since she wasn't a love interest it wasn't as large as Ash or the other love interests.


Tali stops giving out conversations after 1 mission after recruiting her.    Garrus stops after two.   you can try it yourself.