393 réponses à ce sujet

[kiyyto]

sedrikhcain wrote...

OK, here's what I don't get about all the complaints regarding RPG elements -- or lack thereof. The people who don't like Mass Effect 2 on these grounds appear to be RPG purists, if that's the right word, who want extensive customization of skills and gear and are missing that in mass effect 2. 

If ME2 came before ME then I’d say they are both great.

ME2 is pretty fun, story is pretty good, shooting elements are fine for a 3rd person shooter.
ME had those same elements with a bit more. The story seemed tighter and the missions more purposed. The game felt less like a series of levels and more like a story, and adventure.

There is more to it than simply RPG purism. I don’t like a pure RPG. If that is what ME2 turned into I’d say it would be more boring at times than it is now, at times.

[Kalfear]

sedrikhcain wrote...

OK, here's what I don't get about all the complaints regarding RPG elements -- or lack thereof. The people who don't like Mass Effect 2 on these grounds appear to be RPG purists, if that's the right word, who want extensive customization of skills and gear and are missing that in mass effect 2. What puzzles me about this is that they keep saying things about how the game is a letdown or is disappointing, which is odd because by traditional RPG standards even ME1 was not heavy on these elements. The hardcore RPG aspects showed up much more in storytelling, dialogue, character interaction and such. The inventory system was never really all the customizable and you spent most of the game discarding supposed "upgrades" as junk because you were already fully outfitted with Level X spectre gear and medigel and had a full bank account -- that you didn't need anyway.

Given all that, why are these RPG fans all so "disappointed" that ME2 stripped away some of what was already RPG-lite, if you will, in the first place. It seems to me that if whole skill point/inventory customization paradigm is what gets you going the ME franchise was never your cup of tea to begin with. If that's what you want, go play KOTOR or NeverwinterNights 2 again, or DA: O (so I'm told, haven't played it yet). Or rail on the whole ME franchise, but don't act surprised that this game isn't something neither in the franchise has been.

*sighs* no one ever listens

No the RPG elements are not there
In BIOWARE GAMES you effect your surroundings and influence those around you. Every choice you make changes how your game ends

In Bioware games you earn the trust of your companions through influence checks and long conversations were you learn about them, their hopes, their dreams, what makes them tick. You just dont do a predetermined loyalty quest and all is good.

In Bioware games, squadmates interact (positively or negatively) while your out and about through out the universe, not just in predetermined cutscreens 1 or 2 times a game!

So no, the RPG elements were not in ME2 and if you played any Bioware RPGs you would know this

Oh and shove you know what up your you know what

Bioware has stated many times this is SUPPOSE TO BE equal parts shooter and RPG so YES, it is what we asking for, with guns! They just havent found the right mix yet!

[Gorn Kregore]

kiyyto wrote...
I’m not sure I understand your post.
Looks like you are trying to say something.

Bracing myself for a flamewar. What you said could stir something bad easily.

[kiyyto]

Veex wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

I don't know that dumbing down the rpg part was a risk though, at least not for the sell of ME 2. The ME 1 fans were going to buy it and hope for the best.

I hate this term "dumbing" down. You don't have to be intelligent to play Mass Effect. There isn't anything complex or difficult about it. Did they remove some depth? Yes, they did. I personally don't find the value or benefit of "depth" if all I'm doing is selling or trashing 95% of my inventory and putting points into passive and incrimental abilities which give no tangible benefit.

The weapon skills are still present in Mass Effect 2, as are the charm and intimidate skills, they just aren't handled in the same manner. It isn't dumbed down as much as slimmed down, and I think the terms matter.

Well, dumbed down implies a negative and slimmed down might imply a positive. I don’t think people using the term dumbed down are expressing a positive.

[Veex]

kiyyto wrote...

Well, dumbed down implies a negative and slimmed down might imply a positive. I don’t think people using the term dumbed down are expressing a positive.

You can't dumb something down that isn't difficult in the first place. It didn't go from easy to more easy. I guess if you consider tedious hard, then maybe it went from tedious to easy.

[JigPig]

Hehe, New York Times, not even worth wrapping fish in.

[Brayton]

Gorn Kregore wrote...

kiyyto wrote...
I’m not sure I understand your post.
Looks like you are trying to say something.

Bracing myself for a flamewar. What you said could stir something bad easily.

Wait I was supposed to read Kiyyto's post on me?

Modifié par RockingKraut, 03 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[Gorn Kregore]

RockingKraut wrote...

Gorn Kregore wrote...

kiyyto wrote...
I’m not sure I understand your post.
Looks like you are trying to say something.

Bracing myself for a flamewar. What you said could stir something bad easily.

Wait I was supposed to read Kiyyto's post on me?

Good man. You done the right thing.

[sedrikhcain]

Kalfear wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

OK, here's what I don't get about all the complaints regarding RPG elements -- or lack thereof. The people who don't like Mass Effect 2 on these grounds appear to be RPG purists, if that's the right word, who want extensive customization of skills and gear and are missing that in mass effect 2. What puzzles me about this is that they keep saying things about how the game is a letdown or is disappointing, which is odd because by traditional RPG standards even ME1 was not heavy on these elements. The hardcore RPG aspects showed up much more in storytelling, dialogue, character interaction and such. The inventory system was never really all the customizable and you spent most of the game discarding supposed "upgrades" as junk because you were already fully outfitted with Level X spectre gear and medigel and had a full bank account -- that you didn't need anyway.

Given all that, why are these RPG fans all so "disappointed" that ME2 stripped away some of what was already RPG-lite, if you will, in the first place. It seems to me that if whole skill point/inventory customization paradigm is what gets you going the ME franchise was never your cup of tea to begin with. If that's what you want, go play KOTOR or NeverwinterNights 2 again, or DA: O (so I'm told, haven't played it yet). Or rail on the whole ME franchise, but don't act surprised that this game isn't something neither in the franchise has been.

*sighs* no one ever listens

No the RPG elements are not there
In BIOWARE GAMES you effect your surroundings and influence those around you. Every choice you make changes how your game ends

In Bioware games you earn the trust of your companions through influence checks and long conversations were you learn about them, their hopes, their dreams, what makes them tick. You just dont do a predetermined loyalty quest and all is good.

In Bioware games, squadmates interact (positively or negatively) while your out and about through out the universe, not just in predetermined cutscreens 1 or 2 times a game!

So no, the RPG elements were not in ME2 and if you played any Bioware RPGs you would know this

Oh and shove you know what up your you know what

Bioware has stated many times this is SUPPOSE TO BE equal parts shooter and RPG so YES, it is what we asking for, with guns! They just havent found the right mix yet!

I'm not sure where you hostility comes from but there's really no point in it.

I've played other bioware games. I would consider them my fave game maker. bioware and KOToR are my fave PC games ever.

My post was about people complaining about lack of exhaustive stat/inventory builds, etc. The franchise was never long on those to begin with, so i don't see the point in complaining about them now. If you have other problems with the game, then my comments weren't directed at you. In fact, more and more varied dialogue trees is a point i'd agree with you on. I'd like more of that myself.

There are RPG elements in the game. If you don't like the choices they've made about which ones are and which ones aren't, that's fine. But they are there. You do have dialogue choices. Characters do react differently to you based on what you do. Your options and even your appearance change based on your deeds.

[Bigeyez]

Not a bad review at all. This guy was objective, thoughtful, and had a well written review, unlike the other review that was linked today where the dude was just trying to bash the game form the very start.



NYT surprises me indeed.

[kiyyto]

Veex wrote...

kiyyto wrote...

Well, dumbed down implies a negative and slimmed down might imply a positive. I don’t think people using the term dumbed down are expressing a positive.

You can't dumb something down that isn't difficult in the first place. It didn't go from easy to more easy. I guess if you consider tedious hard, then maybe it went from tedious to easy.

You are missing the point. No one is talking about dumbing down the difficulty.
And, you can go from easy to more easy, more easy might be considered tedious.

[kiyyto]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

OK, here's what I don't get about all the complaints regarding RPG elements -- or lack thereof. The people who don't like Mass Effect 2 on these grounds appear to be RPG purists, if that's the right word, who want extensive customization of skills and gear and are missing that in mass effect 2. What puzzles me about this is that they keep saying things about how the game is a letdown or is disappointing, which is odd because by traditional RPG standards even ME1 was not heavy on these elements. The hardcore RPG aspects showed up much more in storytelling, dialogue, character interaction and such. The inventory system was never really all the customizable and you spent most of the game discarding supposed "upgrades" as junk because you were already fully outfitted with Level X spectre gear and medigel and had a full bank account -- that you didn't need anyway.

Given all that, why are these RPG fans all so "disappointed" that ME2 stripped away some of what was already RPG-lite, if you will, in the first place. It seems to me that if whole skill point/inventory customization paradigm is what gets you going the ME franchise was never your cup of tea to begin with. If that's what you want, go play KOTOR or NeverwinterNights 2 again, or DA: O (so I'm told, haven't played it yet). Or rail on the whole ME franchise, but don't act surprised that this game isn't something neither in the franchise has been.

*sighs* no one ever listens

No the RPG elements are not there
In BIOWARE GAMES you effect your surroundings and influence those around you. Every choice you make changes how your game ends

In Bioware games you earn the trust of your companions through influence checks and long conversations were you learn about them, their hopes, their dreams, what makes them tick. You just dont do a predetermined loyalty quest and all is good.

In Bioware games, squadmates interact (positively or negatively) while your out and about through out the universe, not just in predetermined cutscreens 1 or 2 times a game!

So no, the RPG elements were not in ME2 and if you played any Bioware RPGs you would know this

Oh and shove you know what up your you know what

Bioware has stated many times this is SUPPOSE TO BE equal parts shooter and RPG so YES, it is what we asking for, with guns! They just havent found the right mix yet!

I'm not sure where you hostility comes from but there's really no point in it.

I didn’t read any hostility.
He made sense to me.
In fact, you are the one who told him to go somewhere else and play something else, in a thread which is obviously critical of the game.

So, what’s up douche?

[77boy84]

Kalfear wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

OK, here's what I don't get about all the complaints regarding RPG elements -- or lack thereof. The people who don't like Mass Effect 2 on these grounds appear to be RPG purists, if that's the right word, who want extensive customization of skills and gear and are missing that in mass effect 2. What puzzles me about this is that they keep saying things about how the game is a letdown or is disappointing, which is odd because by traditional RPG standards even ME1 was not heavy on these elements. The hardcore RPG aspects showed up much more in storytelling, dialogue, character interaction and such. The inventory system was never really all the customizable and you spent most of the game discarding supposed "upgrades" as junk because you were already fully outfitted with Level X spectre gear and medigel and had a full bank account -- that you didn't need anyway.

Given all that, why are these RPG fans all so "disappointed" that ME2 stripped away some of what was already RPG-lite, if you will, in the first place. It seems to me that if whole skill point/inventory customization paradigm is what gets you going the ME franchise was never your cup of tea to begin with. If that's what you want, go play KOTOR or NeverwinterNights 2 again, or DA: O (so I'm told, haven't played it yet). Or rail on the whole ME franchise, but don't act surprised that this game isn't something neither in the franchise has been.

*sighs* no one ever listens

No the RPG elements are not there
In BIOWARE GAMES you effect your surroundings and influence those around you. Every choice you make changes how your game ends

In Bioware games you earn the trust of your companions through influence checks and long conversations were you learn about them, their hopes, their dreams, what makes them tick. You just dont do a predetermined loyalty quest and all is good.

In Bioware games, squadmates interact (positively or negatively) while your out and about through out the universe, not just in predetermined cutscreens 1 or 2 times a game!

So no, the RPG elements were not in ME2 and if you played any Bioware RPGs you would know this

Oh and shove you know what up your you know what

Bioware has stated many times this is SUPPOSE TO BE equal parts shooter and RPG so YES, it is what we asking for, with guns! They just havent found the right mix yet!

So then dragon age wasn't as good because characters liking you wasn't based on you talking to them, and was instead based off a stupid gift system?

Get real, dude. I'd rather have the option to talk to people, AND personalized quests for those characters. I don't see how adding in personalized quests make the game any less good.

And besides, NPCs interacting with each other is not a ****ing rpg element. Do you realize how stupid that is?

Two characters in the game that you don't ****ing control interacting does not give it an RPG element. That would mean Halo, and Mario, and every other game with NPCs have RPG elements, which just makes no sense.

[JigPig]

The definition of RPG is subjective. Technically any game in which you play a role is just that. But let's see past that point, shall we?

[Brayton]

Well I mean, if you look at what RPG means, and forget the surpficial terms then it really means Role Playing Game. Breaking that down it means, you have a ROLE to PLAY in a videoGAME so any game would fit that which is why when I was younger I always thought ALL games were RPGs. Don't make this world more confusing people D:

[Veex]

kiyyto wrote...


You are missing the point. No one is talking about dumbing down the difficulty.
And, you can go from easy to more easy, more easy might be considered tedious.

You may want to look up the definition of tedious, as nothing about Mass Effect 2 in comparison to Mass Effect would draw that comparison with the excpetion of planet scanning.

[sedrikhcain]

kiyyto wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

OK, here's what I don't get about all the complaints regarding RPG elements -- or lack thereof. The people who don't like Mass Effect 2 on these grounds appear to be RPG purists, if that's the right word, who want extensive customization of skills and gear and are missing that in mass effect 2. 

If ME2 came before ME then I’d say they are both great.

ME2 is pretty fun, story is pretty good, shooting elements are fine for a 3rd person shooter.
ME had those same elements with a bit more. The story seemed tighter and the missions more purposed. The game felt less like a series of levels and more like a story, and adventure.

There is more to it than simply RPG purism. I don’t like a pure RPG. If that is what ME2 turned into I’d say it would be more boring at times than it is now, at times.

Different criticism from what I was addressing. I was referring specifically to the many posts I have read that seem to bemoan the lack of a complex stats/inventory system. Personally, I'm not missing either of them, especially the inventory system. As much as I loved ME1 -- I did 5 playthroughs, which is a lot for me -- I could do without finding tons of obsolete junk after about 2/3 of the way through the game.

I'm on my first time through ME2, I just survived the trap on the Collector ship and recruited Tali. So far, I would agree that the storyline is tighter in the first one, HOWEVER, it is part 2 of a trilogy. It is almost universal that the second part of any trilogy is more chaotic than the first. The very intent is that you throw the lives of the main characters out of control, destroy the sense of resolution that the first one left you with and put them into the darkest, most chaotic situation of their lives, so that they are full of despair and have seemingly no hope of survival. So I think ME2 is following that structure for plot development. I haven't found it hard to follow at all, just not as tightly focused. Within the guidelines I've described, I think that works.

[Brayton]

I always enjoyed sequels a lot more oddly enough, but it really depends on the game.

[sedrikhcain]

kiyyto wrote...


I didn’t read any hostility.
He made sense to me.
In fact, you are the one who told him to go somewhere else and play something else, in a thread which is obviously critical of the game.

So, what’s up douche?

He said, in response to me "shove your you know what up your you know what", that would strike me as hostile. I really didn't mean to tick anyone off. that's not why i'm here. Just trying to get some other perspectives on the game.

Honestly, if you're into name-calling, etc. find someone else, please. I mean no one on these boards any ill will.

Peace

signed, the douche

[Crackseed]

Well stated Sedrik I found the review inaccurate in multiple areas, but I appreciate that he was concise and clear on his points/opinions - so it was a worthwhile read, even if I disagree heavily xD

As for Kalfear/Kiyyto, I wouldn't bother responding to them too much - when their condescending statements/inaccuracies fail, they resort to the tactics they accuse the fans of displaying [I won't say some fans don't do this, but doing it because others do it is just as sad] Report to Mod, move on and debate with people who are worthwhile IMO 

Modifié par crackseed, 03 février 2010 - 01:02 .

[Twizz089]

novaseeker wrote...

Mass Effect 2 is a wonderful example of what a world-class developer can produce when it wants to create a comfortably popular and profitable sequel in an established mass-market franchise. It is not, however, an example of what a world-class developer can produce when it challenges itself to new heights. BioWare, we’re waiting."

 

I dont like how a critic can work for 10mins and destroy a game that took much more time to develop.  Mass Effect 2 is a great game, And you can tell all the hard work BioWare put into in the secondam  you turn it on.  I tired of people saying it isnt  a real RPG because it doesnt have a bulky inventory system or 30+ spells.  Thats not what a RPG is about.  Bioware has created a game that everyone can enjoy.  The "geek" who likes reading and epic stories, the "shooter fan who likes poping off heads, the bully who likes pushing people out of windows, and the casual gamer who is just looking for a bit of fun, can all find themselves at home in Mass Effect 2.

[RighteousRage]

Agent_Dark_ wrote...

It is not, however, an example of what a world-class developer can produce when it challenges itself to new heights. BioWare, we’re waiting."

Like Dragon Age perhaps?  Maybe they should go play that.

Ugh, Dragon Age was clunkier than BG 2

[corebit]

Ever get the feeling that many people are simply looking for reviews that agree with them? If they don't like the game, they will consider all the positive reviews as "fanboyism" and "paid for" and consider any negative review as "great" and "objective"

[Brayton]

corebit wrote...

Ever get the feeling that many people are simply looking for reviews that agree with them? If they don't like the game, they will consider all the positive reviews as "fanboyism" and "paid for" and consider any negative review as "great" and "objective"

When it should be the other way round in some cases?

I'm learning

[Destructo-Bot]

maladosteo wrote...

I gotta agree with the NYT on this one. Not much innovation, instead they took out a lot of stuff that was enjoyable.

And his thoughts on what a world class game dev "can/should" be doing...SPOT ****ING ON

I gotta agree with the poster agreeing with the NYT guy on this one.