Aller au contenu

Photo

Arms and Armor Realism Mod


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
92 réponses à ce sujet

#76
Sainta117

Sainta117
  • Members
  • 352 messages

TheWabbit wrote...

If you get around to it:

Archers shoot too fast. Historically, they could release 6-10 arrows a minute. Crossbows are even slower.

This is where some issues might occur. Against plate, the longbow arrow is, for the most part, useless. The longbowman might get lucky and hit an exposed area but it was rare. The longbow was very effective against the knight's mount (French know this well).

In the game, they appear to be using the stirrup style light crossbows. Although these weren't as powerful as the cranked heavy crossbows that could punch through any armor, they still will do a lot of damage.


I had to weigh in on this. Hardy (2006) and others have developed compelling experimental data to suggest that at under 100 yards, a longbow could punch handily through plate armor, even the so called "white plate" produced in the late medieval era with the use of blast furnaces. This assumes, of course, the use of the wedge-shaped "bodkin" point and a full clothyard shaft (longer and much heavier than modern target or hunting arrows).

With regards to speed, the numbers cited are significantly off. It is possible that *you* or *I* might be limited to 6-10 arrows in a minute, but in fact sources from the era disagree, including the account of Prince Louis Napoleon, who wrote that english longbowmen could reliably hit a man-sized target at 240 yards (2.4 football fields) 12 times a minute. The rate would almost certainly have been higher at the (for a longbowman) ridiculously short ranges in the game (50-100 yards at best). Indeed, other sources cite a rate of fire as high as 15 aimed shots in a minute, which seems credible (for short range) considering the cited 12/minute rate above.

Accordingly, please don't nerf the longbow in the name of realism. If anything, its deadliness and rate of fire should be enhanced, as should its armor-piercing abilities. Indeed, many historians rank it as the most deadly weapon used in warfare until the bolt-action rifles of the late 19th century. The real limitation on its use was always the archer - a good longbowman usually had to be trained from childhood, and both accustomed to the difficulties of ranging a shot without a sighting system and conditioned to the weight of a full warbow (the largest of which are believed to have had a draw weight in excess of 150 lbs.

Actually, if you're going for realism, you might consider splitting damage for a longbow into two parts, half to the bow and half to the arrow. Then you vary the damage and armor peircing stats significantly based on arrow type. This is the solution that has been used in a number of Mount and Blade realism-focused mods. While you're at it, you could also consider making the equip requirements for higher material bows be strength rather than dex, but that might be hard to balance.

Modifié par Sainta117, 22 novembre 2009 - 04:49 .


#77
Ambaryerno

Ambaryerno
  • Members
  • 532 messages
Actually, some of the bows recovered from the wreck of the Mary Rose were tested at draw weights nearing 200lbs. This is after about 400 years of laying at the bottom of the English Channel. The possibility that some war bows may have exceeded 200lbs of draw weight is entirely within the realm of possibility.

I definitely intend to have a high strength requirement for the longbows. These were incredibly powerful weapons that required a great deal of strength to use (skeletons of archers have been found with massively overdeveloped left arms because of the strength needed to hold the bow under tension).

I'd REALLY like to be able to have power dependent on range. In that way, crossbows might have the advantage at very close ranges, but the longbow would have a much greater effective range, which is reflected by reality, and aside from tactics one reason why the English longbowmen held a significant advantage over the French crossbows during the Hundred Years' war.

#78
The Demonologist

The Demonologist
  • Members
  • 658 messages
I love history buffs. And I love that you have this knowledge. You better believe I'll be playing this when it hits.



2 handed longswords? HELL YES!

#79
Ambaryerno

Ambaryerno
  • Members
  • 532 messages
Right now I need to figure out how to make the 1H arming swords work....

#80
The Demonologist

The Demonologist
  • Members
  • 658 messages
Yeah. I'm completely mystified on how to add new base item types or modifying the originals, but you have my support. Out of curiosity though, how will you handle them and correlations between classes?



Will you be creating new talent trees to reflect different techniques involving different weapons?

#81
Ambaryerno

Ambaryerno
  • Members
  • 532 messages
As of now, the only new talents will be for 2H swords, which will be separated from the axes and mauls.

#82
Delcar

Delcar
  • Members
  • 95 messages

Ambaryerno wrote...

I was considering having the sword "level," but that's scripting that's a bit beyond me at this stage.
<snip>


I haven't looked at the toolset yet, but I think you are all on the right track with upgrading it  - similar to the way Starfang is given to you by Mikhail, there must be a way you turn in the sword and get a different (the same, upgraded) blade back/Wade and the dragonscales type mechanism.

I too am looking forward to progress on this.

#83
Sainta117

Sainta117
  • Members
  • 352 messages

Ambaryerno wrote...

Actually, some of the bows recovered from the wreck of the Mary Rose were tested at draw weights nearing 200lbs.
This is after about 400 years of laying at the bottom of the English
Channel. The possibility that some war bows may have exceeded 200lbs of
draw weight is entirely within the realm of possibility.

I
definitely intend to have a high strength requirement for the longbows.
These were incredibly powerful weapons that required a great deal of
strength to use (skeletons of archers have been found with massively
overdeveloped left arms because of the strength needed to hold the bow
under tension).

I'd REALLY like to be able to have power
dependent on range. In that way, crossbows might have the advantage at
very close ranges, but the longbow would have a much greater effective
range, which is reflected by reality, and aside from tactics one reason
why the English longbowmen held a significant advantage over the French
crossbows during the Hundred Years' war.


I've seen those numbers too, although there's some debate as to whether those were finished bows or rough-prepared staves intended to be cut down into thinner and lower draw-weight bows at a later date. That being said, the 150 lb estimate I threw out there was intentionally conservative - I wasn't sure what would happen if I tossed
out the more widely-agreed upon figure of 180 lbs for the upper end of the draw-weight range. Also remember that draw weight wouldn't be limited only by the strength of the archer to draw the bow once or twice, but by their ability to draw and fire repeatedly under combat conditions. Plus, nobody argues that those weights were typical - you'd have to be a bit of a genetic freak to shoot in a 200 lb longbow, and you couldn't count on many men having the necessary length of arm and skeletal frame to support the development of that kind of muscle.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear you've considered the strength issue - I think that's really critical to improving realism. However, don't underestimate the crossbow - the big issue in the hundred years war was the crappy level of crossbow tech - it was much better by the late medieval era, especially once the arbalest was developed. Since we don't have an era to use as a reference, you might consider going with a consistent level of quality instead - i.e. good crossbows, good swords, and good longbows, even though those were developed in different eras. One way to make the choice between the two interesting would be to adjust the ability tree to make it really difficult to get good with longbows and shortbows, while anybody can pick up and use a crossbow proficiently (bonuses to accuracy, for instance). So if you wanted the anvantages of a longbow, you'd have to invest some skill points to make it effective. Whereas you could use a crossbow effectively from day 1.

Also,

Delcar wrote...

Ambaryerno wrote...

I was considering having the sword "level," but that's scripting that's a bit beyond me at this stage.


I
haven't looked at the toolset yet, but I think you are all on the right
track with upgrading it  - similar to the way Starfang is given to you
by Mikhail, there must be a way you turn in the sword and get a
different (the same, upgraded) blade back/Wade and the dragonscales
type mechanism.

I too am looking forward to progress on this.


see this for an example of that kind of thing:

http://social.biowar.../&v=discussions

http://www.dragonage...file.php?id=122

Modifié par Sainta117, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:47 .


#84
Sainta117

Sainta117
  • Members
  • 352 messages
sorry, double post.

Modifié par Sainta117, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:46 .


#85
Midgetface

Midgetface
  • Members
  • 78 messages
The part that interests me the most is the synergy between specializations. Would like to see how you plan to apply that.

#86
oPERKI

oPERKI
  • Members
  • 6 messages
I wouldn't make your ranged damage dependent on your STR. That would make Dwarves the new archers instead of the traditional Elves. Could all longbowmen bench 400lbs? No. They've simply been trained to draw a string back. Maybe STR could add a damage bonus, but I wouldn't make it the main thingamajig.



I also wouldn't stray too far from the rules already set in place. If you wanted to play realism, nobody would get as many points toward attributes as they do now. Compared to the average soldier, your characters become superhuman. This is my serious face.

#87
Chicken_Chaser

Chicken_Chaser
  • Members
  • 1 messages
I have a very dumb question for those of you who are experienced with the toolset. I just downloaded it and everything and have it running right now. Here it comes: How do I use it?

#88
Orogun01

Orogun01
  • Members
  • 168 messages

Chicken_Chaser wrote...

I have a very dumb question for those of you who are experienced with the toolset. I just downloaded it and everything and have it running right now. Here it comes: How do I use it?

 
With much care :police:

#89
Ambaryerno

Ambaryerno
  • Members
  • 532 messages
I'm not talking it being part of ranged damage, I'm talking about the requirements to USE the thing.

#90
Nithrakis Arcanius

Nithrakis Arcanius
  • Members
  • 244 messages

Orogun01 wrote...

Chicken_Chaser wrote...

I have a very dumb question for those of you who are experienced with the toolset. I just downloaded it and everything and have it running right now. Here it comes: How do I use it?

 
With much care :police:


And erect a shrine to the toolset lighting god and hope you do not meet his disfavor. He is very unforgiving.

#91
Ambaryerno

Ambaryerno
  • Members
  • 532 messages

Nithrakis Arcanius wrote...

Orogun01 wrote...

Chicken_Chaser wrote...

I have a very dumb question for those of you who are experienced with the toolset. I just downloaded it and everything and have it running right now. Here it comes: How do I use it?

 
With much care :police:


And erect a shrine to the toolset lighting god and hope you do not meet his disfavor. He is very unforgiving.


And don't hijack someone else's thread to ask a general editing question when you can start your own thread for that.

Posted Image

#92
Mjelnir

Mjelnir
  • Members
  • 28 messages
I dont know if you have seen this but it might help with your problem



http://social.biowar...ject/422/#files

#93
Ambaryerno

Ambaryerno
  • Members
  • 532 messages
The problem isn't adding new items, I made a generic longsword under my new item setup and it works just fine. The problem is specifically tied to the Base Item Types. New Base Items won't work, and it doesn't even work if I change a sword from one of the existing types to another.



IE: If I set the Warden Sword to my new Arming Sword base type the script fails to add it to inventory. If I set it as Longsword it does work (only now it's 2H instead of 1H). If I set it to Greatsword the script adds it to inventory, but it still shows up as a Longsword.