2439 réponses à ce sujet

[ComTrav]

bjdbwea wrote...

Let's not start with Tali, lest the spamming starts here too.

PS: Started a new game with ME 1 lately, and it's refreshing, it all feels so much better. Looking forward to rescuing Liara.

Have you ever rescued her LAST? She has different dialogue...though I imagine it makes the romance option pretty tricky.

[Deamon023]

bjdbwea wrote...

Let's not start with Tali, lest the spamming starts here too.

PS: Started a new game with ME 1 lately, and it's refreshing, it all feels so much better. Looking forward to rescuing Liara.

I started a new renegade to import into ME2, rescued Liara yesterday

[bjdbwea]

Yeah, that dialogue is pretty funny. This kind of additional work that the developers invested "just because", these little new things that you could always find, is part of what made past BioWare games so great. By the way, you can still get the romance. That said, the rescue mission is usually my first story mission. Romance or not, I like to have the team complete.

[Mox Ruuga]

My current Paragon Sentinel ME1 + ME2 playthrough (currently investigating Saren on the Citadel) will be the last Liara romancer for me, until I get more information about the future of our favorite asari archeologist. Either the DLC, something unexpectedly amazing from the comic (extremely unlikely), or just actually something more solid and less glib from the devs.

[Mox Ruuga]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Heh, I've also been planning to replay ME1 after this current playthrough of 2. I want to rescue Liara again, and have all those sweet conversations with her.

Tell you what, I really missed her exclaiming "Oh Goddess!" in ME2.

ME2 ended up being a good game, of sorts. It doesn't have the pull ME1 still has, tho. And never will, I'm thinking. A big part is the writing and structuring of the main plot, which is a side issue at best in ME2. 19 recruitment and loyalty missions and 4-6 main plot related missions (depends on how you count 'em).

If ME3 is a return to form, ME2 will be inevitably recognized in the future as the flawed middle episode with little overall plot importance in the grand scheme of the trilogy's story. A holding pattern middle act.

[Sharn01]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Heh, I've also been planning to replay ME1 after this current playthrough of 2. I want to rescue Liara again, and have all those sweet conversations with her.

Tell you what, I really missed her exclaiming "Oh Goddess!" in ME2.

ME2 ended up being a good game, of sorts. It doesn't have the pull ME1 still has, tho. And never will, I'm thinking. A big part is the writing and structuring of the main plot, which is a side issue at best in ME2. 19 recruitment and loyalty missions and 4-6 main plot related missions (depends on how you count 'em).

If ME3 is a return to form, ME2 will be inevitably recognized in the future as the flawed middle episode with little overall plot importance in the grand scheme of the trilogy's story. A holding pattern middle act.

I would have to agree, a lot of the acclaim people are giving it are those still suffering from blind nostaligia and new toys.  I think a year from now people are going to settle down and realize that story wise, ME was a much better game then ME2.  I guess ME2 will always have its pure shooter fans but I cant see, or should I say would be heart broken to see Bioware turn its back on its RPG fans, the very people who have kept them in business since its inception.

Modifié par Sharn01, 11 février 2010 - 10:46 .

[WilliamShatner]

Sharn01 wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Heh, I've also been planning to replay ME1 after this current playthrough of 2. I want to rescue Liara again, and have all those sweet conversations with her.

Tell you what, I really missed her exclaiming "Oh Goddess!" in ME2.

ME2 ended up being a good game, of sorts. It doesn't have the pull ME1 still has, tho. And never will, I'm thinking. A big part is the writing and structuring of the main plot, which is a side issue at best in ME2. 19 recruitment and loyalty missions and 4-6 main plot related missions (depends on how you count 'em).

If ME3 is a return to form, ME2 will be inevitably recognized in the future as the flawed middle episode with little overall plot importance in the grand scheme of the trilogy's story. A holding pattern middle act.

I would have to agree, a lot of the acclaim people are giving it are those still suffering from blind nostaligia and new toys.  I think a year from now people are going to settle down and realize that story wise, ME was a much better game then ME2.  I guess ME2 will always have its pure shooter fans but I cant see, or should I say would be heart broken to see Bioware turn its back on its RPG fans, the very people who have kept them in business since its inception.

I doubt many reviewers played the original game since 2007, hence they don't have clear memories of it.  They haven't been obsessed with the universe for the past two years.  Most reviewers anyway just care that "better graphics, better framerate, no texture pop-in" = better game.

As someone who played the original no more than a month before playing ME2 it was blindingly obvious how poor of a follow up it is in terms of continuity and potential of story.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Yeah, its truly staggering just how little is actually built on and achieved in ME2s plot. "Yeah, you killed the collectors, who were nothing more than mindless reaper slaves. You didnt save the galaxy, despite stupid claims otherwise, you just inconvenienced the reapers a little, setting back their plans for humanity". Mass Effect 2 was a big waste of time by comparison to ME1. In ME1 you got there in the nick of time to stop a surprise attack that would doom the galaxy. In ME2 you stopped a minor annoyance, because seriously, if humanity was really in mortal danger, the alliance would mobilise the fleet to fight for its life. The fact that the galaxy is so willing to ignore the disappearances in ME2 clearly suggests they arent all that important.

In terms of Tali and Garrus and their character continuity, Talis recruitment and loyalty missions were exceptional, some of the highlights of the game, but her character afterwards was shambolic. The moment romance isnt on the cards, shes basically a dead character with no dialogue. Garrus recruitment and loyalty missions were so-so. Far too reliant on combat. Again, had all of 2 conversations with Garrus in the entire game.

I need Liara to be a squadmate in ME3 to know the game is capable of progressing a character in such a way. If shes another "important NPC", I really mean it when I say I wont bother purchasing the game. No "cool cameo" will ever improve on a squadmate role, so why bother buying it when its clearly inferior?

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 11 février 2010 - 11:02 .

[Mox Ruuga]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Dink, I remember you were a very vocal Liara supporter on the old forums who could articulate your opinions pretty well, so i wanted to ask what were your thoughts on Liara's appearance and role in ME2? What hopes do you have for Liara DLC and her role in ME3? I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

Heh, remember all those Bioware "loyalists" who attacked Dinkamus and other pissed off ME1 LI fans, ridiculing them for supposedly wanting the ME trilogy to be nothing more than a dating sim, that the romances were just one small part of the whole, etc.

Odd how many of them turned out to be Talimancers, who are now making threats of their own, to not buy ME3 unless the fetish object gets a major role, the romance continues, and gets a squad part in it. Inconceivable.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Dink, I remember you were a very vocal Liara supporter on the old forums who could articulate your opinions pretty well, so i wanted to ask what were your thoughts on Liara's appearance and role in ME2? What hopes do you have for Liara DLC and her role in ME3? I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

Sure, no problem.

My thoughts on Liara and her role in ME2? Well, sounds like youve been as much a part of this issue as long as I have, so my first thoughts would be "as bad as I feared". There is absolutely no dialogue from her in ME2 that ventures beyond "ambiguity" hinting at a romance. Sure, "I couldnt let you go" might resonate more with a player who had their Shepard romance her, but whatever good it does is cheapened when you know someone who has never even seen Liara before ME2, or treated her like garbage in ME1 is getting the same response. Yes, seeing her at the start was okay, and the kiss (if a bit of a mixed bag) and the photo and its associated cutscene were nice in some respects. However, that really is scraping the bottom of the barrel type stuff right there. To do so such a thing, you have to scrape through the thick layers of Liara in ME2 basically being one half direction post ("Thane is that way, and Samara that way" - A grim moment when an ME character of her level of importance is simply pointing you towards characters in ME2 who actually occupy a meaningful role), the other half being a giver of a hacking side mission.

Soo, yeah, basically I know for a fact much of Liaras cameo role was anticipated by many of us before the game was even out, and it was just as lacklustre and disappointing as we all knew it would be. One of the lowest points of ME2 for me, easily, and ME2 does have its fair share of low points to boot.

DLC? Well now, thats a tricky question. Reeling from her ME2 role with a great deal of bitterness and cynicism, Im wary of Liara factoring into any DLC in a significant way. Its a rather depressing state of affairs when, should Bioware actually release DLC with her in a substantial role, Id immediately greet this good gesture with "whats the catch in ME3?" If she could play a role in some DLC that sets up her role for ME3, great. But I think its paramount that she and Kai/Ash be squadmates in ME3. Squadmates are unequivocally the most well rounded, developed characters in the game that bring players by far the most enjoyment, and they easily recieve the most attention. Ive said it once already, but you cant improve on something when youre drastically reducing it, even if you use crap phrases like "streamlined" in favour of the more truthful "massive cutbacks". I just dont have the motivation to see this trilogy through if the core characters from the first game, minus Garrus and Tali, get minor supporting roles for the remainder of the trilogy. Its just not good enough character development. Its already had a negative impact on my view of the ME2 squad, and the fact that I no longer care if any of them return.

Id like to enjoy ME3s squad, both ME1 returns and any new ones they bring. If its mostly new/ME2 squadmates though, I know I wont enjoy the game, so I wont buy it.

Ideas for Liara DLC though? Well, there is only one thing it can involve, and its the only shred of character development they tossed Liara throughout ME2, and thats the events of the comic book and her vendetta against the shadow broker.

Oh and Mox, yeah, there were a great deal of us back then who knew our own preferences well enough to know what we were in for. The whining fanboy loyalists werent going to change that, and lo and behold now that the game is out, we were right all along.

Thankfully now that the game is in our hands, they mostly have to shut up and take it since its now our right, or even perhaps duty to criticise ME2s glaring shortcomings.

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Thankfully now that the game is in our hands, they mostly have to shut up and take it since its now our right, or even perhaps duty to criticise ME2s glaring shortcomings.

Prior to ME2 coming out we knew Liara and the other ME1 LI's weren't going to be part of things, so my expectations coming in were fairly low.  BW failed to meet even my low expectations for Liara in ME2.

I suppose they can still fix that with DLC, but in the end when the trilogy is all over it'll still feel rather hollow.  The second chapter just doesn't fit, it doesn't do anything to add to the story or to advance it.  This whole suicide mission and collect a pokem....err recruit a team idea was so weak I am surprised it came from a company like BW that prides itself on storytelling.

[Mox Ruuga]

Nozybidaj wrote...

I suppose they can still fix that with DLC, but in the end when the trilogy is all over it'll still feel rather hollow.  The second chapter just doesn't fit, it doesn't do anything to add to the story or to advance it.  This whole suicide mission and collect a pokem....err recruit a team idea was so weak I am surprised it came from a company like BW that prides itself on storytelling.

You can say that again!

When the story reveals started trickling in, I wondered "is that it"?

Collect a powerful team and make them loyal! Epic for the ages. Oh and do the suicide mission shtick with the Collectors at the very end. The actual investigation about the missing colonists should have been the story, not this HR manager simulation we ended up doing for most of the story. 19 recruitment and loyalty missions, 4 to 6 "story" missions. Nice balance, eh?

I hope Bioware thinks long and hard before committing to someone's "wouldn't it be cool" sort of story idea for ME3. Because this is how it looks to me: someone in the writing team had the idea of making the Mass Effect version of the Dirty Dozen, and they ran with it.

[DigitalMaster37]

Hey guys, good morning, stopping in to support my favorite ME character and Asari, the wonderfully beautiful and alluring Liara T'soni. Dink, I always love your take on things, it definitely keeps things balanced as far as perspectives go. As optimistic as I get, it's always good to have a view like yours to keep us Liara fans vigilant and prepared to fight for her in case BioWare plans to drop the ball again. But I truly, honestly think they will give us what we deserve.

[jienoma]

Nozybidaj wrote...

(...) This whole suicide mission and collect a pokem....err recruit a team idea was so weak I am surprised it came from a company like BW that prides itself on storytelling.

There is no progress in the Mass Effect universe, that's left in the very same state ME1 was, as if it was a side quest with no meanings for the whole plot. You can put the "gather the characters, kill the evil"  story, in any game without a sweat. It's the cheapest plot Bioware has managed to write since they've been founded.

Setreamlined gameplay is not equal to cheap story, there is really no excuse in this debacle, since they have the best writers ever seen in gaming history. It's like if someone like George R.R. Martin wrote the second charapter of his "A Song of Ice and Fire" saga without moving the whole plot an inch and describing for 300 pages Jon Snow recruiting people for the Night Watch to kill Mance, and in the last 10 the final battle.

Liara is a very important character in ME1, deeply connected to the story, Benezia's daughter, and in this charapter she has been transposed in a shallow apparition, no more connected to the story than an anonymous quest giver. And if you've romanced her is even worst, without a decent expression of the tension that an event, like the one we've seen at the beginning of ME2, should have grown inside both characters. Not only the reaction lacks credibility, but even an hint of common sense in the foundation of a belieavable story.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

I think part of the problem with Liara's role in ME2 is the damn comic book. The comic book's story takes place right after the prologue but would've spoiled the game's opening if released 4 months before the game came out, so instead of ruining the game's story the game ruins the comic book's story. 

So Liara's fans get a brief cameo some dialogue that pretty much spoils the comic book's story (which wouldn't be all that hard regardless), 2 lame side quests to help Liara, a picture on a desk, and then that is it.

Liara is my favorite character in the Mass Effect universe. I would love to see her back in DLC (or better yet an expansion pack) that would resolve her vendetta with the Shadow Broker. My idea would be that while Liara wants to kill the Shadow Broker, Shepard needs the Shadow Broker's help to get info to help her/him out of trouble with the Council/Alliance/Cerberus after the ending of ME2.

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 11 février 2010 - 02:08 .

[Mox Ruuga]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Another thing that got on my nerves a little bit is that, unlike any other of the old ME1 crew, when you reunite with Liara there is no swell of nostalgic music or anything to tug at your heartstrings or emotions. When you meet Ashley/Kaidan and Wrex again, you get a remix of "Vigil" playing in the background. With Liara, nothing. Just background SFX.

But then I got thinking, that surely they wouldn't have left it at that, and decided to interpret it that it's more evidence of the forthcoming DLC, in which we WILL get the proper reunion that Shepard and Liara deserve. Hopefully that means Liara opens up and reveals her guilt and emotional pain a little more.

Gah, can't wait until April!

Oh, true! The melancholy yet awesome Vigil theme in the Horizon encounter (the only time it shows up in ME2, I think), and yet again nothing comparable for Liara.

[Mox Ruuga]

No need to get excited unfortunately, I'm betting Enfants only meant the last issue of that comic mini series.

[Nastrod]

The only thing that has me keeping any faith at all in the talk from BW about ME1's LIs is all the clues of a DLC. If they let all us Liara fans and Ash and Kaedin fans also with all we got in ME2. They stressed so much the importance so if nothing changes I will not expect much from ME3.

I want more Liara so please do not let us down BW.

Modifié par Nastrod, 11 février 2010 - 03:12 .

[DigitalMaster37]

justinnstuff wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Another thing that got on my nerves a little bit is that, unlike any other of the old ME1 crew, when you reunite with Liara there is no swell of nostalgic music or anything to tug at your heartstrings or emotions. When you meet Ashley/Kaidan and Wrex again, you get a remix of "Vigil" playing in the background. With Liara, nothing. Just background SFX.

But then I got thinking, that surely they wouldn't have left it at that, and decided to interpret it that it's more evidence of the forthcoming DLC, in which we WILL get the proper reunion that Shepard and Liara deserve. Hopefully that means Liara opens up and reveals her guilt and emotional pain a little more.

Gah, can't wait until April!

April? You know when it's coming out? Or is it speculation?

GAH you've made me go insane wanting it!! 

I love the sig!