2439 réponses à ce sujet

[SovereignT]

Liara is better off hunting down the shadow broker then becoming part of the squad again!



She needs her revenge more then she needs to come back =P

[Mox Ruuga]

Heh, if they had the DA:O gift system in ME, those discs would have been the thing for Liara. By the end, she would have had a nice collection from the amorous commander.

I wonder if his/her Alliance superiors would have got mad with him/her?

I can just imagine Udina:

"Shepard! Those artifacts are priceless! Our own scientists should have been the ones to study them, to unlock their secrets for humanity's benefit! And you've given them as gifts to the daughter of Saren's lieutenant, you love sick fool! What were you thinking!?"

[bjdbwea]

I like this thread. Provides better entertainment than that awkward scene.

[DigitalMaster37]

jbauck wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

General Stubbs wrote...

Can't believe we have to wait till sometime after April for more Liara.
It just isn't the same playing ME2 without her... It feels like the halls of the new Normandy are empty.
But hey, I have convinced myself that it will be worth it in the end because we will have more time with her in DLC.
ME2 definately does feel like you just stopped a reaper side quest.
Didn't Shepard say that the reapers were coming at the end of ME1? Now they are still coming two years later. (do they really move that slowly or what)?
How many MEs are there going to be if Shepard has to stop each reaper in an individual game? (I guess we only killed a baby reaper this time though).

I got the same feeling. Even with a full Normandy, without Liara it felt desolate. It's like she's a celebrity with me, when she'd in the room, there is a very different feeling. Even when I got to Illium, the walk up the stairway to her office gave me goosebumps. I was so estatic it wasn't even funny.

Wow - I feel so much better about the bump in geek factor I get from my Liara Thing.

In ME2, I kept dropping in on Chakwas even when she didn't have anything new to say, because in ME1 I always stopped to chat with her on my way to see Liara.  Just bein' polite, y'know.  Really, I think that's why Chakwas joined Cerberus: her Shep loyalty all stems from the frequency of Shep's "Hi - how are ya'?" in ME1.

And while we're all making confessions - does anyone else always get all of the Prothean Data Disks when replaying ME1?  Because, in their head, something like this happens?

Shepard: Hey, Liara.  Got you something.
Liara: *head-tilting adorably-confused look* What is it?
Shepard: *proudly displays disk*
Liara: *expression lights up* Prothean Data!  Oh, Shepard!  Thank you!
Shepard: Aww, shucks.  Tweren't nothin'.

Yes, yes - I know I'm a big dork.  No one needs to point that out to me.  Thank you.

LOL, yeah, I love that roleplay bit, that was great!
 and yes I will confess to a few of those moments. LOL

[Ozymandias23]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Thankfully now that the game is in our hands, they mostly have to shut up and take it since its now our right, or even perhaps duty to criticise ME2s glaring shortcomings.

Prior to ME2 coming out we knew Liara and the other ME1 LI's weren't going to be part of things, so my expectations coming in were fairly low.  BW failed to meet even my low expectations for Liara in ME2.

I suppose they can still fix that with DLC, but in the end when the trilogy is all over it'll still feel rather hollow.  The second chapter just doesn't fit, it doesn't do anything to add to the story or to advance it.  This whole suicide mission and collect a pokem....err recruit a team idea was so weak I am surprised it came from a company like BW that prides itself on storytelling.

I couldn't agree more.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

It's amazing how much I got used to Liara always being there, by my side. Reactivating Mira at the eerie and deserted Peak 15 on Noveria? She was there. Being scared stiff on that abandoned freighter by the husks? Liara at my side. The salvation of Zhu's Hope and Feros in general? Liara with me. Being both frightened and awed when conversing with Sovereign on Virmire? With me. Assaulting the geth up the side of the Citadel Tower at the end? Liara with me. I really did build a bond with her by the fact that she went everywhere with me.

God I really do wish she was in ME2. Can't wait for the DLC.

Well, I hope youre right, and we actually get some (provided it doesnt compromise her chances of being a squaddie in ME3 - that needs to be done if Im buying ME3).

I agree though, I also had Liara with me all the time.

One of my favourite lines is asking Mira in the hot labs if she knows an asari is there, and Mira replies that there is an asari standing next to Shepard that she cant identify. Liara then responds with something like "how you tolerate literal minded VIs is beyond me".

I had trouble finding dialogue like that in ME2 that I could really enjoy. Tali and Garrus and their reaction to the Shepard VI in Thanes loyalty mission came close, but because of ME2s treatment of my favourite ME1 squadmate, I just couldnt care about the new team. They were as much a resource to the mission as platinum or palladium. Their poor execution and general lack of improvement on interaction, interjection and dialogue pacing only made things worse.

[JrayM16]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

It's amazing how much I got used to Liara always being there, by my side. Reactivating Mira at the eerie and deserted Peak 15 on Noveria? She was there. Being scared stiff on that abandoned freighter by the husks? Liara at my side. The salvation of Zhu's Hope and Feros in general? Liara with me. Being both frightened and awed when conversing with Sovereign on Virmire? With me. Assaulting the geth up the side of the Citadel Tower at the end? Liara with me. I really did build a bond with her by the fact that she went everywhere with me.

God I really do wish she was in ME2. Can't wait for the DLC.

Well, I hope youre right, and we actually get some (provided it doesnt compromise her chances of being a squaddie in ME3 - that needs to be done if Im buying ME3).

I agree though, I also had Liara with me all the time.

One of my favourite lines is asking Mira in the hot labs if she knows an asari is there, and Mira replies that there is an asari standing next to Shepard that she cant identify. Liara then responds with something like "how you tolerate literal minded VIs is beyond me".

I had trouble finding dialogue like that in ME2 that I could really enjoy. Tali and Garrus and their reaction to the Shepard VI in Thanes loyalty mission came close, but because of ME2s treatment of my favourite ME1 squadmate, I just couldnt care about the new team. They were as much a resource to the mission as platinum or palladium. Their poor execution and general lack of improvement on interaction, interjection and dialogue pacing only made things worse.

I just can't see where you're coming from w/ that at all, I'm sorry.  While I did miss the inter party banter, I felt there were still tons of great dialogue from the party. 

And that's w/out even mentioning the on Normandy dialogue which far outpaces most videogames I've played.  Particularly Mordin, who I find to maybe be the funniest character BW has ever written(yes, even more than HK-47). 

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

It's amazing how much I got used to Liara always being there, by my side. Reactivating Mira at the eerie and deserted Peak 15 on Noveria? She was there. Being scared stiff on that abandoned freighter by the husks? Liara at my side. The salvation of Zhu's Hope and Feros in general? Liara with me. Being both frightened and awed when conversing with Sovereign on Virmire? With me. Assaulting the geth up the side of the Citadel Tower at the end? Liara with me. I really did build a bond with her by the fact that she went everywhere with me.

God I really do wish she was in ME2. Can't wait for the DLC.

Well, I hope youre right, and we actually get some (provided it doesnt compromise her chances of being a squaddie in ME3 - that needs to be done if Im buying ME3).

I agree though, I also had Liara with me all the time.

One of my favourite lines is asking Mira in the hot labs if she knows an asari is there, and Mira replies that there is an asari standing next to Shepard that she cant identify. Liara then responds with something like "how you tolerate literal minded VIs is beyond me".

I had trouble finding dialogue like that in ME2 that I could really enjoy. Tali and Garrus and their reaction to the Shepard VI in Thanes loyalty mission came close, but because of ME2s treatment of my favourite ME1 squadmate, I just couldnt care about the new team. They were as much a resource to the mission as platinum or palladium. Their poor execution and general lack of improvement on interaction, interjection and dialogue pacing only made things worse.

Describing them as a resource like platinum or palladium was very apt.  Aside from Tali and Garrus for obvious reasons the rest of the crew didn't feel like they had any emotinal connection to Shepard.  Well, Samara does, her loyalty mission I think formed a real bond with Shepard but the rest of the crew I didn't get much of anything from.  I really liked Mordin but he doesn't feel like he is attached to Shepard.  I can't see a good explanation why any of them would stick around after the suicide mission, if it was succesful where as the ME1 crew all felt like a much tighter knit group.  It felt like they went through trials together and formed a bond between them where as in ME2 its just Shepard running errands for them.

I dunno, don't think I explained it right but the ME1 crew felt like a real crew, like each of them had a real bond with Shepard and I could see (through my own inference) friendships with each other where as the ME2 crew are just there to do a job.  It really detracted from the game and attempting to create any sort of emotional attachment to the characters.  I honestly wouldn't have cared one bit if they all bought it in the suicide mission, wouldn't have bothered me at all, thats simply what they were there for.  Dieing in the suicide mission was their whole purpose.

Without that emotional attachment that I got from the characters in ME1, it made ME2 feel much more like just a generic shooter.  Like the story and the poor attempts to get me to engage these characters was just a flimsy backdrop against which to give us missions to go shoot stuff.

Overall I think ME2 is a good game, but I'll list it as one of my personal most disappointing games ever.  I had such high hopes for the sequel after playing the original, I don't think I've ever looked forward to a game as much as I had ME2 the last two years.  I wanted to see where the story was going to progress to, I wanted to learn more about those characters, to see what happened to them and how their relationships developed.  Instead all those characters we had created emotional attachment to were completely absent from the game, the story didn't progress at all past where we left it at the end of ME1, and none of their relationships evolved at all, they were instead completely forgotten about.  Quite a letdown to get what we got.

I've said it many times now, but BW really missed an opportunity here.  They had such a great setup with ME1 to do something truely epic, something no other video game series before had really been able to match in creating a world and characters that were so deep and developed and created such strong emotional ties to the player.  It was as close as someone could have gotten to having an interactive space opera on the scale of something like Star Wars.

Instead they took that whole setup from ME1 and discarded it.  They effectively hit the reset button 1/3 of the way into the trilogy.  We now have the first two chapters of the story and both of them served no purpose other than to introduce new characters.

Sorry, long rant, but I think BW needs to hear and understand the way the players are feeling.  Not that there is anything they could do to fix it as this point aside from redoing ME2, but I still what BW to understand why I am disappointed.

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

It's amazing how much I got used to Liara always being there, by my side. Reactivating Mira at the eerie and deserted Peak 15 on Noveria? She was there. Being scared stiff on that abandoned freighter by the husks? Liara at my side. The salvation of Zhu's Hope and Feros in general? Liara with me. Being both frightened and awed when conversing with Sovereign on Virmire? With me. Assaulting the geth up the side of the Citadel Tower at the end? Liara with me. I really did build a bond with her by the fact that she went everywhere with me.

Yeah...she was always with me too.   I'm replaying ME1 again and I must say...playing through ME2 actually made me appreciate and like ME1 a lot more than I already did.

Come back to me Liara!!!! 

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

JrayM16 wrote...

I just can't see where you're coming from w/ that at all, I'm sorry.  While I did miss the inter party banter, I felt there were still tons of great dialogue from the party. 

And that's w/out even mentioning the on Normandy dialogue which far outpaces most videogames I've played.  Particularly Mordin, who I find to maybe be the funniest character BW has ever written(yes, even more than HK-47). 

I had two dialogues maximum with Tali, Garrus, Jack and Miranda. Thats all. That is just shambolic. The only things their characters offered other than that was their loyalty mission and the odd interaction.

Even with characters like Mordin, Samara, Thane, Grunt who I could talk to more frequently, the majority of the game they just fed the "Im busy line".

This is probably because 80% of the game is "shopping list" gameplay where you simply get your squadmates. ME1 operated more on checkpoints, so it offered the character interaction at a much more steady and natural pace, where conversation would be struck up when something new comes up. Not just when youre randomly trolleying around the galaxy doing errands.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 11 février 2010 - 08:54 .

[JrayM16]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

I just can't see where you're coming from w/ that at all, I'm sorry.  While I did miss the inter party banter, I felt there were still tons of great dialogue from the party. 

And that's w/out even mentioning the on Normandy dialogue which far outpaces most videogames I've played.  Particularly Mordin, who I find to maybe be the funniest character BW has ever written(yes, even more than HK-47). 

I had two dialogues maximum with Tali, Garrus, Jack and Miranda. Thats all. That is just shambolic. The only things their characters offered other than that was their loyalty mission and the odd interaction.

Even with characters like Mordin, Samara, Thane, Grunt who I could talk to more frequently, the majority of the game they just fed the "Im busy line".

This is probably because 80% of the game is "shopping list" gameplay where you simply get your squadmates. ME1 operated more on checkpoints, so it offered the character interaction at a much more steady and natural pace, where conversation would be struck up when something new comes up. Not just when youre randomly trolleying around the galaxy doing errands.

True, but I can't see how that's a problem.  And it doesn't change the quality of that dialogue, which as I've said, I felt was superior to ME1.

And just for the record: All BW games are shopping lists.  ME1 included.  It was disguised a little, but basically you're running around the galaxy collecting the necessities to know that Saren is on Ilos.  The Cipher, Liara, the Mu Relay coordinates, and the second beacon are what's called plot coupons in literature.  Collect these things and turn them in for an ending.  That's every BW game ever made so I don't see how it magically becomes a problem in  ME2.

[bjdbwea]

Mordin is great, and do note that for whatever reason he has much more dialogue than any other companion. Also his quest has some interesting moral questions that add the kind of depth that ME 2 is lacking in most other places. It almost feels as if Mordin was written by someone else, or very early in the development process, before the time limit became more important. Apart from that, I have to agree with Dinkamus.

[Prioris]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

It's amazing how much I got used to Liara always being there, by my side. Reactivating Mira at the eerie and deserted Peak 15 on Noveria? She was there. Being scared stiff on that abandoned freighter by the husks? Liara at my side. The salvation of Zhu's Hope and Feros in general? Liara with me. Being both frightened and awed when conversing with Sovereign on Virmire? With me. Assaulting the geth up the side of the Citadel Tower at the end? Liara with me. I really did build a bond with her by the fact that she went everywhere with me.

God I really do wish she was in ME2. Can't wait for the DLC.

+1.  I always had the same party, Ashley and Liara, unless circumstances demanded Ashley stay back (Garrus and Dr. Saleon, Wrex's armor).  Dealing with the psycho PTSD girl on the freighter, cleaning out the damaged rachni on Nepmos, finding Admiral Kahoku too late, Liara was there for everything, right up to the end. 

Ashley was my Shep's cool younger sister (and occasional voice of emotional stability - "You might want to go check on Dr. T'Soni; I mean, losing her mom like that, she has to be hurting" comes to mind), but Liara was her other half, the one who always made her smile after a tough day.  I found myself going up to the captain's cabin after every mission, because it was the only place Shep could see her, even if it was only a picture.

Sad in a sense, I know, but it's amazing how one can become so heavily emotionally invested in a fictional character.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

JrayM16 wrote...

True, but I can't see how that's a problem.  And it doesn't change the quality of that dialogue, which as I've said, I felt was superior to ME1.

And just for the record: All BW games are shopping lists.  ME1 included.  It was disguised a little, but basically you're running around the galaxy collecting the necessities to know that Saren is on Ilos.  The Cipher, Liara, the Mu Relay coordinates, and the second beacon are what's called plot coupons in literature.  Collect these things and turn them in for an ending.  That's every BW game ever made so I don't see how it magically becomes a problem in  ME2.

It doesnt change the quality of the dialogue in ME1, which as Ive said as well, I felt was superior to ME2. I could perhaps concede the conversations are much better animated and presented cinematically, but ME2s squad was remarkably short on dialogue to draw you in with these characters, unless you were prepared to romance them.

As for the "shopping list", the problem is in ME2 its not woven into the plot at all other than for its own sake. Its not "acquire something to advance the plot" like ME1, its "acquire something for the sake of acquiring something". In ME1 you werent always told to "go to Noveria to get the location of the Mu relay" etc. They were mysteries, and ones that always advanced the plot. In ME2, its simply "great, I acquired Grunt/Mordin/Garrus". SOME of the loyalty missions preserve my respect for the game, but the difference in how each game engaged me is shocking. Playing through ME2 was so much more clinical, and less "emotionally engaging".

Odd when Bioware talk about the entire purpose of the game being to "emotionally engage you with these characters". I dont think Bioware could have missed the mark any more than they did in my case.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

justinnstuff wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

General Stubbs wrote...

I do the same thing as well. I thought it would help her in ME2, lol.
In ME1 I always stop the Mako to let her finish what she is saying so she doesn't get cut off.

@Deamon: That is a great picture, how could Shepard not find that irresistible in ME2 when talking to her is beyond me.

Haha, I always do that too, especially as you're driving in the Mako into the bunker on Ilos.

As a matter of fact, on my first ever playthrough, I accientally cut her off, so I reloaded so that I could listen to it.

/nerd

So, I'm not the only one that did that!!

*holds hand up* Guilty as charged as well.

[Sharn01]

JrayM16 wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

I just can't see where you're coming from w/ that at all, I'm sorry.  While I did miss the inter party banter, I felt there were still tons of great dialogue from the party. 

And that's w/out even mentioning the on Normandy dialogue which far outpaces most videogames I've played.  Particularly Mordin, who I find to maybe be the funniest character BW has ever written(yes, even more than HK-47). 

I had two dialogues maximum with Tali, Garrus, Jack and Miranda. Thats all. That is just shambolic. The only things their characters offered other than that was their loyalty mission and the odd interaction.

Even with characters like Mordin, Samara, Thane, Grunt who I could talk to more frequently, the majority of the game they just fed the "Im busy line".

This is probably because 80% of the game is "shopping list" gameplay where you simply get your squadmates. ME1 operated more on checkpoints, so it offered the character interaction at a much more steady and natural pace, where conversation would be struck up when something new comes up. Not just when youre randomly trolleying around the galaxy doing errands.

True, but I can't see how that's a problem.  And it doesn't change the quality of that dialogue, which as I've said, I felt was superior to ME1.

And just for the record: All BW games are shopping lists.  ME1 included.  It was disguised a little, but basically you're running around the galaxy collecting the necessities to know that Saren is on Ilos.  The Cipher, Liara, the Mu Relay coordinates, and the second beacon are what's called plot coupons in literature.  Collect these things and turn them in for an ending.  That's every BW game ever made so I don't see how it magically becomes a problem in  ME2.

Its a problem in ME2, because unlike ME1, they did nothing to cover it up.  Everything in the origonal worked together fluidly, carrying the story and character's along with it.  Side mission's where optional, but some did tie in to the main plot, they could have done a better job giving the character a sense of having the time to do all these, but that was its only major flaw story wise.

Dont get me wrong, I think the dialog that is there for the ME2 squadmates is very good, in fact it is the only thing holding ME2 together, so that should tell you how well it was done.  But the lack of a good story and the horrible attempt, if you can call it an attempt, to integrate the ME1 choices, particuarly the romances in to ME2 leaves a foul taste in many people's mouth's.

[JrayM16]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

True, but I can't see how that's a problem.  And it doesn't change the quality of that dialogue, which as I've said, I felt was superior to ME1.

And just for the record: All BW games are shopping lists.  ME1 included.  It was disguised a little, but basically you're running around the galaxy collecting the necessities to know that Saren is on Ilos.  The Cipher, Liara, the Mu Relay coordinates, and the second beacon are what's called plot coupons in literature.  Collect these things and turn them in for an ending.  That's every BW game ever made so I don't see how it magically becomes a problem in  ME2.

It doesnt change the quality of the dialogue in ME1, which as Ive said as well, I felt was superior to ME2. I could perhaps concede the conversations are much better animated and presented cinematically, but ME2s squad was remarkably short on dialogue to draw you in with these characters, unless you were prepared to romance them.

As for the "shopping list", the problem is in ME2 its not woven into the plot at all other than for its own sake. Its not "acquire something to advance the plot" like ME1, its "acquire something for the sake of acquiring something". In ME1 you werent always told to "go to Noveria to get the location of the Mu relay" etc. They were mysteries, and ones that always advanced the plot. In ME2, its simply "great, I acquired Grunt/Mordin/Garrus". SOME of the loyalty missions preserve my respect for the game, but the difference in how each game engaged me is shocking. Playing through ME2 was so much more clinical, and less "emotionally engaging".

Odd when Bioware talk about the entire purpose of the game being to "emotionally engage you with these characters". I dont think Bioware could have missed the mark any more than they did in my case.

Well, w/ the first line you said there I doubt either of us can convince eachother of anything since we just have different views on what amkes good dialogue, or atleast what kind of dialogue pleases us. 

Here's an argument of mine about how characters in ME2 are better written than those in ME1.  It's about depth and progression.

In ME1, you mostly get what makes a character tick after the first conversation, sometimes the first encounter.  I had no problem w/ this at the time.  In ME2 there are layers, there's more to each character than initially seen.  Not all of them, but some.  There's also a very real progression of the character through their personal sidequest.

Miranda-When you meet her, she's "the perfect woman" she's cocky, condescending, and so on.  She feels she is better than others.  As you learn about her father and him making her the way she is, you dig deeper, and find she's not as confident, revealing she actually resents her abilities because she didn't earn them. 

Jack-At first, Jack is the can-do bad ass who believes she's the toughest there ever was due to her experiences w/ Cerberus.  She enjoys violence, and so on.  In  her sidequest, we are shown a very clever summary of her early life through environmental detail and anectdotes from Jack that explain many of her personality traits w/out screaming in your face(much).  We then find out that the foundation of her mindset, that she survived cause she was the toughest, was wrong and we see an interesting psychological journey where Jack ends up still angry, but a little more at peace.

Mordin-At first, just the funny, violent one.  We see his end justifies the means attitude but we also see that he dsires to help people in the quarantine zone.  We also see his faith in end justifies means attitiude tested on Tuchanka, where he sees waht the Krogan have done because of his modified genophage. 

I could list more, but you get the idea and I dont want my post to be too long.