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[Nozybidaj]

maikanix wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

General Stubbs wrote...

At least we can talk to her in ME1 for now. (and stand near her in ME2).

Yeah, think I am about done with my last playthrough of ME2, don't see much reason to do anymore once I have my two faithful to Liara runs done (and a Tali one).  Maybe I'll go back and start a new ME1 playthrough to see if I can get this bad taste out of my mouth.

I just finished replaying ME1 again.
Missed Liara.
That DLC better be amazing (and romantic)

On this note, I did finish my last ME2 game.  I still haven't killed off any of the crew yet though.  Think I'll shelve the game at this point till we get close to ME3 and I can make my "perfect" saves to import which will infact include most of the new crew being killed off.

It'll be back to ME1 for me for now on whenever I need my Shep/Liara fix.  I've lost count of how many times I've played that game.

[Nozybidaj]

maikanix wrote...
Oh god. Changes in writers is never a good thing...
I already don't like this mac guy.

You are among friends then.

[Deamon023]

maikanix wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

General Stubbs wrote...

At least we can talk to her in ME1 for now. (and stand near her in ME2).

Yeah, think I am about done with my last playthrough of ME2, don't see much reason to do anymore once I have my two faithful to Liara runs done (and a Tali one).  Maybe I'll go back and start a new ME1 playthrough to see if I can get this bad taste out of my mouth.

I just finished replaying ME1 again.
Missed Liara.
That DLC better be amazing (and romantic)

Playing ME1 again also, and I don't dare mention how long I do stand next to Liara at times in ME2

[WilliamShatner]

I'm definitely replaying my "canon" Shepard before ME3 to kill off Subject Zero.



Can't believe this game is making me turn renegade!

[Nozybidaj]

Deamon023 wrote...
Playing ME1 again also, and I don't dare mention how long I do stand next to Liara at times in ME2

I get in and out of Illium as fast as possible, skipping through all the Liara dialogue now.  It is just too disappointing to try and talk to her.  I do everything I can in Illium in one visit then never go back.

[WilliamShatner]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Deamon023 wrote...
Playing ME1 again also, and I don't dare mention how long I do stand next to Liara at times in ME2

I get in and out of Illium as fast as possible, skipping through all the Liara dialogue now.  It is just too disappointing to try and talk to her.  I do everything I can in Illium in one visit then never go back.

Hopefully BioWare's game tracking stats don't think you do this because you have no interest in Liara.

[Nozybidaj]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Deamon023 wrote...
Playing ME1 again also, and I don't dare mention how long I do stand next to Liara at times in ME2

I get in and out of Illium as fast as possible, skipping through all the Liara dialogue now.  It is just too disappointing to try and talk to her.  I do everything I can in Illium in one visit then never go back.

Hopefully BioWare's game tracking stats don't think you do this because you have no interest in Liara.

I don't think it would matter.

[Deamon023]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Deamon023 wrote...
Playing ME1 again also, and I don't dare mention how long I do stand next to Liara at times in ME2

I get in and out of Illium as fast as possible, skipping through all the Liara dialogue now.  It is just too disappointing to try and talk to her.  I do everything I can in Illium in one visit then never go back.

I know she want's to talk to my Shep but the darn SB is spying on her so I keep silent and watch her at work, always better than not seeing her at all imo.

[Eddie-Hawke]

I kind of want to think the poor treatment of Liara in ME2 is proof itself of this DLC. The lack of screen time and conversation she gets makes you hang on everything the comic will give you, because I know I was hoping there would be some further explanation in that. It just doesn't feel right, there's an obvious sense of "No, this is wrong, something must be missing." Hopefully, something must be coming. DLC?

[Console Cowboy]

personally i think Liara was handled best out of the ME1 love interests. Kaiden and Ashley dismiss you immediately without giving you the benefit of the doubt or any real chance to explain your position. Liara's in a different place, sure, but a fair bit of time has passed since you last saw her and she's been through alot (without you and *for* you). that's not even considering the circumstances of your last departure from her; they could be enough to alter someone's disposition in and of themselves.

Modifié par Console Cowboy, 12 février 2010 - 08:14 .

[Sharn01]

Console Cowboy wrote...

personally i think Liara was handled best out of the ME1 love interests. Kaiden and Ashley dismiss you immediately without giving you the benefit of the doubt or any real chance to explain your position. Liara's in a different place, sure, but a fair bit of time has passed since you last saw her and she's been through alot (without you and *for* you). that's not even considering the circumstances of your last departure from her; they could be enough to alter someone's disposition in and of themselves.

Still does not explain why Shepard can not initiate any kind of dialog to feel out the situation her self.  At least with Ash/Kaiden they storm off removing the ability for Shep to try and fix things, with Liara she is available from the time you reach Ilium until the end of the game, and at no time can Shep ever say anything to her about where they stand with each other, its a glaring oversight in writing and story design.

[WilliamShatner]

Console Cowboy wrote...

personally i think Liara was handled best out of the ME1 love interests. Kaiden and Ashley dismiss you immediately without giving you the benefit of the doubt or any real chance to explain your position. Liara's in a different place, sure, but a fair bit of time has passed since you last saw her and she's been through alot (without you and *for* you). that's not even considering the circumstances of your last departure from her; they could be enough to alter someone's disposition in and of themselves.

Although they got less time at least:

1) They express their feelings for you and you can express your feelings for them to Kelly.
2) Their characters weren't massacred in the way Liara's was.

But yes Ashley/Kaidan fans have every right to be outraged as well.

[Sharn01]

Agreed, Ash/Kaiden fans had a continuation promised to them that was left out of the game as well. But they at least got an acknowledgement that the romance exsisted. If my post did not express that before it was meant to.

[Midnight Reyn]

WilliamShatner wrote...

1) They express their feelings for you and you can express your feelings for them to Kelly.

As an Ash fan, I was so happy when my shep was able to tell Kelly how much Ash meant to him.

That all changed, however, when I started up a ME1 Single Import Shep, and the dialogue with Kelly was exactly the same even though my Shep hadn't romanced Ash. You can say the exact same thing to Kelly and admit Ash is a special woman even though you haven't romanced her.

Since I know the option to tell Kelly about Ash is exactly the same whether your romanced Ash or not, it's now lost some of its allure. It's nice to have and I'm glad it was included, but since single sheps who didn't romance Ash can say word for word the same thing, it doesn't mean much.

Modifié par Midnight Reyn, 12 février 2010 - 09:51 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Midnight Reyn wrote...

As an Ash fan, I was so happy when my shep was able to tell Kelly how much Ash meant to him.

That all changed, however, when I started up a ME1 Single Import Shep, and the dialogue with Kelly was exactly the same even though my Shep hadn't romanced Ash. You can say the exact same thing to Kelly and admit Ash is a special woman even though you haven't romanced her.

Since I know the option to tell Kelly about Ash is exactly the same whether your romanced Ash or not, it's now lost some of its allure. It's nice to have and I'm glad it was included, but since single sheps who didn't romance Ash can say word for word the same thing, it doesn't mean much.

Looks like you were gypped just as we Liara fans were then, as in Liara confessing the whole "I couldn't let you go" thing to every Shep, not just if she was his/her lover.

Oh Bioware... Why the constant middle finger?

[Mox Ruuga]

WilliamShatner wrote...

I'm definitely replaying my "canon" Shepard before ME3 to kill off Subject Zero.

Can't believe this game is making me turn renegade!

Tali and Garrus get to feel my ire, poor things. But then, their deaths can serve the "dark" second act quite well. Tali especially is quite easy to get killed, even if you make her loyal. And once loyal, it's easy to make her disloyal again with the Legion incident. Garrus, OTOH, is more difficult. I'm thinking of trying to fizz up the biotic shield thingy, but how can you control which of your two squaddies get taken by the bugs when the non-ideal biotic falters?

[Nynaeve]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Another thing that I think points to Liara DLC is the fact that after you have completed her quests, you still have the ability to initiate conversation with her. However, the only available question to ask her is "How is your own work going?". Just that. Now, normally in Mass Effect when Shepard can only ask a character one question, it automatically goes into that dialogue tree and the conversation proceeds. But seeing as you have to manually select that single question, I get the feeling that after the DLC has been acquired, Shepard will be able to converse with her more. Perhaps after you've completed the DLC you will have the ability to ask her about the relationship?

I REALLY hope so

[speedy111280]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

good bumpage. Dumb question pending (for bumpage sake) ---> Given how the ME1 LIs have been viewed by the new (and some old) fans, do you all think BioWare intended this, or are they just a casualty of the story in the ME trilogy?

I'm thinking more of a casualty of the trilogy, because I don;t think it was BioWares intention to push them out (ME1 LIs), but rather to tell a different part of the story that ties into ME3, but just happens to omit the ME1 LIs.

But the other logic is that BioWare got bored with the ME1 characters and now we have "new and improved" characters to take their place. I highly doubt this to be true, but what does everyone think?

Personally I think it's a casualty of Drew Karpyshyn leaving as lead writer.  I mean it's can't just be a co-incidence that when he left it sort of went down the drain.  And I think Karpyshyn was Liara's writer as well?

I can't see for the life of me why he would leave something as ambitious and possibly industry defining as the Mass Effect trilogy for an MMO.  Might be a case that nothing really changed when he left, might also be a case of what could have been.

I can see why Drew K. would leave the Mass Effect trilogy for the KOTOR MMO. Drew K. does happen to make some of his money outside of his Bioware job writing actual novels for the Star Wars universe and I don't see anyone at Bioware, EA or Lucasarts forgetting that and going with someone who has no experience writing for Star Wars on such an ambitious MMO. Not everyone can write for Star Wars. I don't think the handling of the ME LI's had much at all do with the writing team for ME2 because almost all of them worked on ME1 as well. I'd say the LI's were a casualty of two things: the story they wanted tell and a victim of their own importance to the overall trilogy. If this game wasn't a suicide mission we'd have seen a lot more of the LI's. Since it was a suicide mission and since they wanted to ensure the LI's from ME were going to be alive for ME3 their parts in ME2 are barely more than cameos and as much as that disappoints me I can understand it.

I don't disagree that there are things they could have changed about how they were handled. I don't fault the responses of the LI's, because Shepard was dead for 2 years. That's a big shock to see someone you've assumed was dead for 2 years standing in front of you alive and well, especially if you love that person. People tend to overreact (which is why Ash/Kaidan send those emails) it was more disappointing not to be able to acknowledge the relationship, especially once random crew members start having feelings for Shepard. They should have  at least had a nice turn down  (you pretty much have to be a jerk with most of them to spurn their advances) where Shepard would say "sorry, I'm in love with ..." and fill in that Shepard's LI.

[MoSa09]

There are two things that really bug me about that Liara reunion:



1. She tells you she can't speek freely, as everything might be recorded on Illium. But she speaks quite open about her job as an Information Broker, that she threatens and kills people, that she hunts she Shadow Broker, about Feron, and later, that she killed her assistant. Not to mention the kiss with Shepard, so she didn't hide the personal relationship either.Now if that's not talking openly?

So there is either a huge secret she still hides and we know nothing about, or this is just a really lame excuse for them to not engage in a relationship dialogue.



2. The second question is somewhat related to the first. Why can't you ask Liara "What about us"/ "Do you still love me"/ I want to be together with you" or something like that. Now i understand that they wanted to keep the old LI out of ME 2 and the player somwhat in the dark about the status of that relationship. But that alone does not explain why they ignored the most natural question of all.

So, was it simply forgotten to incorporate that question or was ist just lazy writing as they simply didn't want to think about a response from Liara that made sense and still kept the players in the dark about the status of the relationship and so just left it out completely.



I hope, for both questions, it's the former, but from playing, i always get the feeling that it's the latter, and that is a real shame from a gaming company that takes pride in telling the best stories in the video gaming industrie. For what i know now, it feels like they just took a very bad shortcut because they were to lazy to really write a satisfying response that would be believable and fit with how they wanted their story to go on. Maybe futher dlc/ME 3 will prove me wrong, but that is how it feels now.



@Mox Ruuga: generally, it's your second squadmate that dies if your biotic falters. Not always, but most of the time. So pick the one you want to die as the last one, and it should work. It might also depend on the skills of the two. The one who dies secures the team, so if you choose Tali as second and Grunt as the first choice, it might still be Grunt simply because he has the better fighting abilities and it won't make sense for a tec like Tali to go front line and defend the team.

[Eddie-Hawke]

The difficulty now though is that people are really relying on the DLC and/or ME3. If they don't deliver, well...

[bjdbwea]

I think the importance of the writer(s) can't be overestimated. For ages, the gaming industry as a whole was much more interested in technic, story lines were more like tacked on in an afterthought. Ridiculous plots, trivial plots, nonexistant plots, huge plot holes - it all was the norm rather than the exception. In many games of all genres. BioWare really was one big exception. Their games were never the most visually stunning, but they had a story and character development that made everything else fade. ME 1 for me was the peak in this development, but ME 2 is a major step back. Not only, this needs to be repeated, because of the ridiculously bad job they did with the ME 1 LIs.

[Console Cowboy]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Console Cowboy wrote...

personally i think Liara was handled best out of the ME1 love interests. Kaiden and Ashley dismiss you immediately without giving you the benefit of the doubt or any real chance to explain your position. Liara's in a different place, sure, but a fair bit of time has passed since you last saw her and she's been through alot (without you and *for* you). that's not even considering the circumstances of your last departure from her; they could be enough to alter someone's disposition in and of themselves.

Although they got less time at least:

1) They express their feelings for you and you can express your feelings for them to Kelly.
2) Their characters weren't massacred in the way Liara's was.

But yes Ashley/Kaidan fans have every right to be outraged as well.

1. fair point. in retrospect Liara was lacking in that respect.
2. i still disagree. if it seems like she's acting out of character it's because she's changed and grown as a person in the past two years, for better or worse.

Modifié par Console Cowboy, 12 février 2010 - 12:00 .

[Sharn01]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

I'm definitely replaying my "canon" Shepard before ME3 to kill off Subject Zero.

Can't believe this game is making me turn renegade!

Tali and Garrus get to feel my ire, poor things. But then, their deaths can serve the "dark" second act quite well. Tali especially is quite easy to get killed, even if you make her loyal. And once loyal, it's easy to make her disloyal again with the Legion incident. Garrus, OTOH, is more difficult. I'm thinking of trying to fizz up the biotic shield thingy, but how can you control which of your two squaddies get taken by the bugs when the non-ideal biotic falters?

Ah Mox, dont take it out on Tali and Garrus, throw Jacob and Miranda to the sharks to appease your anger.

At the very least save Garrus, who else besides Liara if she is a squaddie can you trust to have your back in ME3?

[speedy111280]

bjdbwea wrote...

I think the importance of the writer(s) can't be overestimated. For ages, the gaming industry as a whole was much more interested in technic, story lines were more like tacked on in an afterthought. Ridiculous plots, trivial plots, nonexistant plots, huge plot holes - it all was the norm rather than the exception. In many games of all genres. BioWare really was one big exception. Their games were never the most visually stunning, but they had a story and character development that made everything else fade. ME 1 for me was the peak in this development, but ME 2 is a major step back. Not only, this needs to be repeated, because of the ridiculously bad job they did with the ME 1 LIs.

I don't think it was major step back story wise. Yes the LI's were handled badly but the story itself was not a step back. It was what the second part of a trilogy should be. It told a story that was resolved by the end but left the important things unfinished until the third part. The Reapers are still out there but the immediate threat has been taken care of. I will agree that there wasn't a very long story line in ME2 because it was so focused on the characters, much like Empire Strikes Back was. There is not supposed to be a lot of development of the story that arcs between the 3 parts of the trilogy. The only difference IMO between ESB and ME2 is that due to the story they were trying to tell important characters (i.e. the ME LI's) were pushed to the background to keep them alive. Knowing how trilogies are generally handled and with the importance to the story they've given Liara, I'm fairly convinced that the ME trilogy will end up being just as much about Liara as it is Shepard, similar to how the original trilogy ended up being just as much about Vader as it was about Luke.

The writing in my opinion was fantastic and at times superior to that of ME. The dialogue was generally better, the characters were far more developed. They all actually got backgrounds this time and a compelling side mission that I'm glad they brought back because I missed those character developing side missions like they had in KOTOR. The only place the writing fell flat was the ME LI's but with the story they were telling in ME2 I can see how they would have trouble working the LI's into ME2 in a way that their fans from ME1 would be satisfied with. Outside of Liara all of the characters in ME were rather flat because their stories didn't directly tie into the plot or into their character development in a direct way. Yes we got a bit of background in talking to them but compare those few conversation with Garrus to his loyalty quest, or Tali's conversations to her loyalty quest and don't get me started on just how amazing I thought Jack's story was. Only Liara got that kind of treatment in ME1 (and that carried over to ME2 as the comic) and that's why I'm not worried about her not showing up in ME3 because she's become too important to the plot arcing over the entire trilogy.