2439 réponses à ce sujet

[speedy111280]

bjdbwea wrote...

This is not the thread to pick apart the rest of the game, but let me say this: "Writing" primarily means to me the main story. That really wasn't very well in ME 2. It wasn't well thought out from the beginning, and the presentation was also lacking. Good as a few characters were indeed written, there was almost no integration into the main story, which is one major flaw amongst several. The "middle part of a trilogy" is really no excuse for everything. To me it tastes rather like the well-known phenomenon of hastily produced sequels to successful "first parts" that we also see in the movie industry all too often. But, and now back on topic, usually well-liked characters aren't trashed in the process. On the contrary, you'd think continuing with established characters would even save the creators more time.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the writing because to me the story of the second part of a trilogy is always about the characters (that's why Luke spent most of ESB navel gazing on Dagobah and learning the Force instead of going after Vader/the Emperor) with very little going toward the resolution of the over-arcing plot of the trilogy; which is why I applaud the writers for ME2 because they brought the characters to life.

I think Bioware is in the exact same position George Lucas found himself in when doing the prequels. Nothing they did was going to make all the fans happy, especially because they are telling their story, you only have limited control over how that plays out. I don't think the ME1 characters were trashed, especially not Liara. Yes, I agree that they could have explored her, and Ash/Kaidan, a bit more (because there is never enough Liara for me) but I don't consider it trashing her character. No one who goes through what she goes through in ME, the opening scene of ME2  and the comic is going to be the same. Losing someone you love changes you, losing 2 people you love in a short time knocks you completely off balance. Liara is no exception and as much as I miss the sweet, innocent Liara she's still in there hiding under all that bravado and intimidation so I am not upset with her attitude in ME2. To me she seemed lost and more than a bit broken. I would have loved the opportunity to explore that but knowing that she's that way because of what happens in Redemption I wasn't surprised that we didn't get to. They couldn't go too far with Liara's character in ME2 without giving away a whole lot of the comic. I fully expect that if the whole Shadow Broker plotline doesn't play directly into ME3 in some way that there will be some DLC to tie-up that storyline and that it will heavily feature Liara. Honestly, I think being the focus of the comic hurt Liara's appearance in ME2 more than anything because that storyline won't be finished for a few more months and that really limited what Liara could do in the game itself. Bioware isn't going to ruin one of their poster characters, it would be stupid of them to do that as they've made Liara one of the more recognizable characters in the franchise, especially if they intend to continue in the ME after concluding the trilogy. I think we'll see Liara back and better than ever in ME3 with the events of ME2 being a minor blip on her radar, one of those phases of growing up we all have. Remember Liara is barely an adult among the Asari so her reactions aren't going to be like those of say a matron or a matriarch.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

I've seen several people state by now, that the devs seem to like Liara.

Where are you getting this impression?

I remember seeing some dev comment that Jack was his or her favorite, and someone else I recall liking Grunt the best, but Liara?

Why would Bioware wreck her like they did, and give her such a nothing role if they liked her specifically, above the average squaddie? More likely to me, they are in the process of sweeping the ME1 LIs under the rug, or at least moving them away from the important squaddie roles. Oh, I don't doubt we'll see them in ME3. Hell, we may end up getting a "Liara" DLC too. But I'm willing to bet her new role as a "Barla Von" and aspiring Shadow Broker replacment to be is here to stay.

I don't know Mox. Liara's Matriarch Benezia impression was cheesy. Just like her sudden dark and edgy image. That's for sure. How that ever passed QA beats me.

[bjdbwea]

I don't object to your assumptions in general. It's the execution where BioWare failed, strange enough for a company of their quality, but that's how I see it. I've played every single one of their games throughout the years, but none has left me so puzzled and unsatisfied as this. Not even JE, which many like to bash.

EDIT: But yes, let's keep this topic primarily about Liara.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 12 février 2010 - 04:24 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

BTW: Odd. Threads like these are rather safe. You can actually say something without 100 dedicated BW fans jumping on your neck. /me knocks on wood.

[Nastrod]

We need Liara dlc fast.

[DigitalMaster37]

Yeah let's keep this topic on Liara.

Also, Liara fans try not to be baited into pointless flamewars in "certain" threads on the forum. Let them make themselves look like idiots, and so far they are doing a wonderful job at that.

Number one troll-control rule, never feed the trolls, just ignore them and they will do one of two things,

Die, and/or make a very big fool of themselves...

I prefer the latter, as it's more hilarious...

Modifié par Deltaboy37-1, 12 février 2010 - 04:21 .

[KumoriOokami]

I can't wait to see what happens in Redemption. I really hope that they do have a Liara DLC. I was kindof floored with finding out that Liara was a main reason why Shepard was still alive, very much surprised me.

[AngryFrozenWater]

bjdbwea wrote...

I don't object to your assumptions in general. It's the execution where BioWare failed, strange enough for a company of their quality, but that's how I see it. I've played every single one of their games throughout the years, but none has left me so puzzled and unsatisfied as this. Not even JE, which many like to bash.

I recently bought JE. Just to see how it is. Didn't get around to play it much, though.

Edit: Sorry. I won't get off topic again. At least I'll try.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 février 2010 - 04:24 .

[Wynne]

I was annoyed that my Ryla didn't get the chance to make sweet, sweet love to her blue bunny in this game. There is really NO GOOD REASON AT ALL for them to NOT make sweet, sweet love. I was like, "Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that she's going on a SUICIDE MISSION and they don't even get a last chance to embrace eternity before impending DEATH? NOW, IF EVER, IS THE TIME TO CARPE KITTY!" I wanted there to be at least ONE bittersweet continuation of a romance from ME3! That was not what I'd call a continuation.

I mean, I even understood why my mainShep couldn't jump Kaidan's surprisingly hot and appealing bones (I found him far more interesting in the second game than the first, seeing him be his own person rather than a tagalong of sorts... actually, Liara too in ways) because he was pissed at me; same with Ash and my MaleShep Torran, I understood very well why, and I only saw them once by accident. But Liara... just sitting there on that planet, able to be visited... *shakes her head* That was just plain depressing. "Sorry, my dear Ryla, even though I haven't moved on and I'm still in love with you I can't give you one last shag before you DIE HEROICALLY, AGAIN because I'm all awkward and guilty. But here, let us share a weird, passionless kiss." Man, what a downer. It's hard to feel like the incredible story opener and ending have any real bearing when your love interest doesn't seem to care that you're staring down what may be certain death.

She is SO doing Kelly instead. And maybe Shiala in ME3, if that little interlude was any indication, but that depends on what Liara is like in the finale. I'd really want them to capitalize on Shepard's history with Liara.
On the upside, the asari dating that krogan... that entire thing was ridiculously adorable. And I loved that bartender so much. Every time she said, "Sorry, no sex, I just cleaned the bar..." I giggled at her delightful casual raunchiness. And her stories about her mom and dad! Krogan/asari relationships are a scream. Same with the salarian shopping with his asari daughter; that was so incredibly sweet and adorable.

Seriously, this whole game made me love the asari. In the first game I was sorta "meh" about them, except for Shiala who I thought was a cool character. But ME2 really made them feel more fleshed-out to me. This time I devoured their codex entries. Samara turned out to be more like a comic-book heroine than what I'd feared she'd be like from the video intro; her outfit is still kinda silly and her flying too IMO, but her values and dialogue and voice actress were all insanely awesome and there's this air of elegant dignity and sublime maturity about her that I couldn't get enough of. I freaking LOVED Illium. It was gorgeous and really awesome and I loved seeing Parasini again. All the lore was just fascinating in regards to asari.

I want them to keep evolving Liara's character, and I would love to see her a changed woman in ME3. She's had to grow up a little faster than most asari her age, and she was sorta on her own during the events of ME2, so they can really take her character in whatever direction works best. I want her back and AWESOME in the last game.

I WANT to want Ryla
and Liara together again. I want to feel the interspecies relationship thing happening. I want to feel like it's very emotional, like the romance is building to a glorious crescendo
rather than just sort of, "Okay, I'm back, now we can go on." Same with Kaidan and Ashley. I want Mass Effect 3 to make me care about the ME1 characters, to make me feel the emotional impact of seeing them again, to make me feel what the relationship between them and Shepard is. I want the game to make me ship Shepard with them. I want Ryla to get her happy ending at last, or at least a chance to seize that happiness through sheer determination.

Modifié par Wynne, 12 février 2010 - 04:38 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Wynne wrote...

I was annoyed that my Ryla didn't get the chance to make sweet, sweet love to her blue bunny in this game. There is really NO GOOD REASON AT ALL for them to NOT make sweet, sweet love. I was like, "Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that she's going on a SUICIDE MISSION and they don't even get a last chance to embrace eternity before impending DEATH? NOW, IF EVER, IS THE TIME TO CARPE KITTY!" I wanted there to be at least ONE bittersweet continuation of a romance from ME3! That was not what I'd call a continuation.

I've never heard (the in-game DA:O) Wynne make sense. Just kidding. But you are absolutely right. That's why some of my characters need to jump through hoops to make sense of the situation.

[DigitalMaster37]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Yeah let's keep this topic on Liara.

Also, Liara fans try not to be baited into pointless flamewars in "certain" threads on the forum. Let them make themselves look like idiots, and so far they are doing a wonderful job at that.

Number one troll-control rule, never feed the trolls, just ignore them and they will do one of two things,

Die, and/or make a very big fool of themselves...

I prefer the latter, as it's more hilarious...

That's the reason why I almost exclusively limit my activity on these forums to this thread, the Liara DLC thread and the Liara fan group. I never even look at the forum home page, I just access these threads through my profile.

Has some spastic started a Liara hate thread or something? <_<

Yeah, but it's actually very tasteless, so I suspect a dev lock coming soon.

[Mox Ruuga]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Mox, I say wait until Redemption has finished and we've got the Liara DLC before you say they've trashed her character. Until then, we can only speculate, but try to remain a little optimistic. ;-)

And I don't agree with BioWare "sweeping her aside" or anything. She's got her own comic book series, and she's pivotal in what happens in ME2 precisely because she recovered Shepard's body, because she couldn't let Shepard go. If anything, I'd say that's elevating her importance in the trilogy, not decreasing it. Add to the fact that she's the only squadmate guaranteed to be alive at the start of ME3, and I say that BioWare have big plans for her. We just have to be patient.

Eh, I've just paid good money to purchase the sequel to one of my favorite games of all time. Surely its not unreasonable for me to comment on what's actually in the released game, as opposed to waiting patiently for something that may or may not materialize?

Even if we get proper Liara content in the DLC, that's still us paying extra for something the Talimancers and Garrus fans were given for no extra charge. Will that same thing then happen in ME3? Will we always be the suckers, paying extra for something that should have been in the core game? That is of course, if the possible Liara DLC ends up being a "Liara DLC", and not merely her sending us to rescue the filthy desert reptile she cares so much for...

We have been patient for two years already. What did that get us? An awkward kiss and a longing look at a picture. And now it's expected of us to patiently wait another two years until ME3? Not for me, I'm afraid.

[speedy111280]

bjdbwea wrote...

I don't object to your assumptions in general. It's the execution where BioWare failed, strange enough for a company of their quality, but that's how I see it. I've played every single one of their games throughout the years, but none has left me so puzzled and unsatisfied as this. Not even JE, which many like to bash.

I've never been puzzled or unsatisfied with a Bioware game, ever. At least where enjoyment is concerned. I think Bioware was shooting for a vaguely unsatisfied feeling with ME2 for those of us who played ME1 since new players aren't going to care a bit about the non-party ME2 characters. There are still a lot of plots dangling out there, so much so that it makes me wonder if the writers are fans of Battlestar Galactica because after completing ME2 I felt much like I did after every episode of BSG. I got a few answers but added more questions on top of the billion others I already had, which is why I love that show so much and why ME is still my favorite video game franchise.

I will admit that my take on Liara and to an extent Ash/Kaidan is largely based on my preference for throwing a lot of obstacles in the way of characters happiness and ME2 is a big obstacle to Shepard getting the happily ever after with the ME1 LI. I also like to be left to ponder what makes a character act that way because I get far more enjoyment out of that than anything else, which might also explain my huge stack of pop culture and philosophy books. ME2 gave me a lot of fodder for thought and many opportunities to put myself in a characters position to see if I could understand them. I will say that if Bioware leaves Liara as she is or turns her even more into Benezia Jr. in ME3 then I will have a serious problem with how they handled her.

[Deamon023]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Mox, I say wait until Redemption has finished and we've got the Liara DLC before you say they've trashed her character. Until then, we can only speculate, but try to remain a little optimistic. ;-)

And I don't agree with BioWare "sweeping her aside" or anything. She's got her own comic book series, and she's pivotal in what happens in ME2 precisely because she recovered Shepard's body, because she couldn't let Shepard go. If anything, I'd say that's elevating her importance in the trilogy, not decreasing it. Add to the fact that she's the only squadmate guaranteed to be alive at the start of ME3, and I say that BioWare have big plans for her. We just have to be patient.

Eh, I've just paid good money to purchase the sequel to one of my favorite games of all time. Surely its not unreasonable for me to comment on what's actually in the released game, as opposed to waiting patiently for something that may or may not materialize?

Even if we get proper Liara content in the DLC, that's still us paying extra for something the Talimancers and Garrus fans were given for no extra charge. Will that same thing then happen in ME3? Will we always be the suckers, paying extra for something that should have been in the core game? That is of course, if the possible Liara DLC ends up being a "Liara DLC", and not merely her sending us to rescue the filthy desert reptile she cares so much for...

We have been patient for two years already. What did that get us? An awkward kiss and a longing look at a picture. And now it's expected of us to patiently wait another two years until ME3? Not for me, I'm afraid.

Better a filthy desert reptile than a Vorcha
But you are right Mox, I will only pay for the DLC if it really is a Liara DLC (if there is a DLC coming) but only time can tell and hopefully not 2 more years.

[AngryFrozenWater]

General Stubbs wrote...

BioWare should have realized that it is not completely necessary "darker" halfway point in the trilogy.
I agree, why the hell would BioWare take a character a sweet as Liara and turn her into an information broker of all things. Another thing about this that is unexplainable, how is being an information broker even remotely close to being an archaeologist? That makes no sense whatsoever.
The good thing is that BioWare is setting up premise for an actual Liara expansion (20+ hours I hope), the whole Liara reunion may seem silly now but it will definitely pay off for us Liara fans.
Even if BioWare had somehow completely and utterly forgot about Liara, at least in that interview yesterday (I think it was yesterday) Casey actually talked about her, so we know she is definitely on someone's mind over at BioWare. With that, I can only assume that there will be an emotional romantic continuation in the DLC.

You got a link to that? I can't find it anymore.

[Mox Ruuga]

Deamon023 wrote...

Better a filthy desert reptile than a Vorcha
But you are right Mox, I will only pay for the DLC if it really is a Liara DLC (if there is a DLC coming) but only time can tell and hopefully not 2 more years.

I will probably shell out for a proper Liara DLC... but the trap there is, that we might end up getting the Liara content as DLC for ME3 as well. Whereas the Talimancers and other dev pets get their material with the core game, once again. And we are the suckers they milk extra money from.

And DLC is almost never all that well integrated with the core game. It is non-essential optional content, after all. Unless its something like Shale for DA:O.

Oh and humanoid worms with evil clown voices > emo desert reptiles with cheesy arsty fartsy flashbacks.

[AngryFrozenWater]

General Stubbs wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

General Stubbs wrote...

BioWare should have realized that it is not completely necessary "darker" halfway point in the trilogy.
I agree, why the hell would BioWare take a character a sweet as Liara and turn her into an information broker of all things. Another thing about this that is unexplainable, how is being an information broker even remotely close to being an archaeologist? That makes no sense whatsoever.
The good thing is that BioWare is setting up premise for an actual Liara expansion (20+ hours I hope), the whole Liara reunion may seem silly now but it will definitely pay off for us Liara fans.
Even if BioWare had somehow completely and utterly forgot about Liara, at least in that interview yesterday (I think it was yesterday) Casey actually talked about her, so we know she is definitely on someone's mind over at BioWare. With that, I can only assume that there will be an emotional romantic continuation in the DLC.

You got a link to that? I can't find it anymore.

I believe this is it: http://www.destructo...ns-163035.phtml

Thank you!

[Deamon023]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Deamon023 wrote...

Better a filthy desert reptile than a Vorcha
But you are right Mox, I will only pay for the DLC if it really is a Liara DLC (if there is a DLC coming) but only time can tell and hopefully not 2 more years.

I will probably shell out for a proper Liara DLC... but the trap there is, that we might end up getting the Liara content as DLC for ME3 as well. Whereas the Talimancers and other dev pets get their material with the core game, once again. And we are the suckers they milk extra money from.

And DLC is almost never all that well integrated with the core game. It is non-essential optional content, after all. Unless its something like Shale for DA:O.

Oh and humanoid worms with evil clown voices > emo desert reptiles with cheesy arsty fartsy flashbacks.

I was thinking back to previous BW DLC, besides the free ones for ME1 I got one for DA:O the keep one, not bad but to short some interesting new items and skills, but it kept me from buying any more DLC's for DA:O 
I really hope the planned DLC for ME2 is at least 3x longer and having more interesting story plots.

 @ your last line.

[Nozybidaj]

speedy111280 wrote...

I think Bioware was shooting for a vaguely unsatisfied feeling with ME2 for those of us who played ME1

I'm not saying you are wrong, in fact I agree with your assumption, but that is about the dumbest thing ever.  Why intentionally shoot for upsetting the current fanbase?  It does nothing to draw me into the game or make me more emotionally engaged.  In fact the only thing my disappointment with ME2 has done is make me delay getting the lastest DLC for DA:O and put pre-ordering the expansion for it on hold until I know for certain their plans for one of my favorite video game characters.  I thought DA:O was a great game but I will not show support for BW until I know damn well and sure that they are going to fix this situation.

I may be just one fan in a big ocean, but believe me, money will talk louder to BW than any number of posts I could ever make here on the forum.  If BW's intent with ME2 was to loose a fan, they are pretty damn close to it atm.