2439 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

As you say, this is your interpretation. And I think you're interpreting too much into it, no offense. If the developers thought anything more than "Wait, we still need to put Liara in the game, you know, that one character from ME 1? Hey, why don't we use her to throw in a few more instances of our amazing hacking game! I bet people will love that much more than that romance dialogue we've been talking about!", then they have to communicate their intentions. This is not a guessing game.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 15 février 2010 - 12:45 .

[KumoriOokami]

Nozybidaj wrote...

FdL_Ananas wrote...
This is my interpretation, thanks for reading, now /discuss

I think we all get the fact that it is supposed to be an act and that the real Liara is still underneath all that.  I think most of us just don't by it. 

Of course when she is talking about the Shadow Broker it is supposed to be anything but an act.  She isn't joking about "wanting to slam him with biotic barriers" and the such.  I don't buy it.  It's too big of a jump in character.  I could totally buy her having gone through something traumatic, getting Feron killed to save Shepard, and wanting to hunt down the SB, but her psycho crazy killer girl dialogue is too much.  Should she be mad, absolutely, should she be distraught and a little paranoid before Shepard returns, sure.  Trying to act like a blue skinned version of Jack though just doesn't work.

There is no reason for her to act that way with Shepard either.  And there is certainly no reason for Shepard to act the way he does.

I did feel like Shepard sounded rather sad/wistful while talking to Liara.  Especially with the "I'll talk to you later" bit. 

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

As you say, this is your interpretation. And I think you're interpreting too much into it, no offense. If the developers thought anything more than "Wait, we still need to put Liara in the game, you know, that one character from ME 1? Hey, why don't we use her to throw in a few more instances of our amazing hacking game! I bet people will love that much more than that romance dialogue we've been talking about!", then they have to communicate their intentions. This is not a guessing game.

This.  If I have to come to the forum to gather a consensus on what we "think" the scene meant it was a failure.  Show me in the game what you mean. don't tell me about on the forum.

[speedy111280]

FdL_Ananas wrote...

Beeing a Liara fan myself, I don't get the discussion about her "bad written total change into an icecold business woman / killer" at all. (No offense meant to anybody here)

In my eyes there are so many glimpses of her "real" self in every interaction with her ...

The tone of her voice constantly changes between cool distance, rabid hate and even despair, at least on a subtle level. (Kudos for her voice actress btw). She dosen't sit still on her chair, but stands up times and times again just to sit down two sentences later. She is talking about trust and can't look Shepard in the eyes but stares out of the window.

In that first (Kiss) scene, she shows her "real" self for a moment, beeing overjoyed with Shepards arrival. And when she stops that kiss and shakes her head it's basically because there are so much emotions welling up and confusing her.

She wants to protect her own life and "business" from all those curious, ill-natured eyes that undoubtedly are observing her. She wants to protect Shepards life from them. (This beeing the more obvious reason that Shepard can see and understand, as maikanix wrote)
But there is also this terrible fear in her that Shepard might reject and hate her because of her role in his/her resurrection by Cerberus. She doesn't want the relationship to go too deep again at the moment because in her deep love for Shepard * she simply can't bear that thought of loosing it (again).

And in the background there's allways all the unprocessed grief for her previous losses and hate for her current situation and she projects all that (not entirely wrongly) on the Shadow Broker...

All this isn't the behaviour of a cold, calculating woman. This is the girl Liara we know from ME1, still not entirely able to deal with all those strong emotions in her young mind. This is the "real" Liara trying to shield her inner self with a cold fassade from a brutal, dark side of the universe she didn't know at all until Shepard, Geth and Reapers burst suddenly in her life, roughly 2 1/2 years ago.

Yes, one can undoubtedly discuss if there should be more options for us in Shepard's role to interact with her. **

But that "change" in Liara's personality makes perfect sense to me and I consider it not bad but - on the contrary - excellent writing!

This is my interpretation, thanks for reading, now /discuss



*(And in my eyes this love is pretty much independent from the actual romance subplot in ME1 or she wouldn't have been so obsessed with finding Shepard's body in the first place. We only decide if Shepard returns that love or not.)

**(Allthough I think it can make sence the way it is, if you think about Shepard - just awoken from the dead - trying to safe life from an imminent threat once again, with all the galaxy looking up to him/her and time, Collectors, Cerberus, the Illusive Man and whatnot at his/her back.)

I agree with you. I've never seen it as bad writing, in fact I've always thought Liara had the capability of being the person she's pretending to be, at least if she wanted to.

[DigitalMaster37]

speedy111280 wrote...

FdL_Ananas wrote...

Beeing a Liara fan myself, I don't get the discussion about her "bad written total change into an icecold business woman / killer" at all. (No offense meant to anybody here)

In my eyes there are so many glimpses of her "real" self in every interaction with her ...

The tone of her voice constantly changes between cool distance, rabid hate and even despair, at least on a subtle level. (Kudos for her voice actress btw). She dosen't sit still on her chair, but stands up times and times again just to sit down two sentences later. She is talking about trust and can't look Shepard in the eyes but stares out of the window.

In that first (Kiss) scene, she shows her "real" self for a moment, beeing overjoyed with Shepards arrival. And when she stops that kiss and shakes her head it's basically because there are so much emotions welling up and confusing her.

She wants to protect her own life and "business" from all those curious, ill-natured eyes that undoubtedly are observing her. She wants to protect Shepards life from them. (This beeing the more obvious reason that Shepard can see and understand, as maikanix wrote)
But there is also this terrible fear in her that Shepard might reject and hate her because of her role in his/her resurrection by Cerberus. She doesn't want the relationship to go too deep again at the moment because in her deep love for Shepard * she simply can't bear that thought of loosing it (again).

And in the background there's allways all the unprocessed grief for her previous losses and hate for her current situation and she projects all that (not entirely wrongly) on the Shadow Broker...

All this isn't the behaviour of a cold, calculating woman. This is the girl Liara we know from ME1, still not entirely able to deal with all those strong emotions in her young mind. This is the "real" Liara trying to shield her inner self with a cold fassade from a brutal, dark side of the universe she didn't know at all until Shepard, Geth and Reapers burst suddenly in her life, roughly 2 1/2 years ago.

Yes, one can undoubtedly discuss if there should be more options for us in Shepard's role to interact with her. **

But that "change" in Liara's personality makes perfect sense to me and I consider it not bad but - on the contrary - excellent writing!

This is my interpretation, thanks for reading, now /discuss



*(And in my eyes this love is pretty much independent from the actual romance subplot in ME1 or she wouldn't have been so obsessed with finding Shepard's body in the first place. We only decide if Shepard returns that love or not.)

**(Allthough I think it can make sence the way it is, if you think about Shepard - just awoken from the dead - trying to safe life from an imminent threat once again, with all the galaxy looking up to him/her and time, Collectors, Cerberus, the Illusive Man and whatnot at his/her back.)

I agree with you. I've never seen it as bad writing, in fact I've always thought Liara had the capability of being the person she's pretending to be, at least if she wanted to.

Seconded.

@FdL_Ananas, Awesome statement and I agree 110%. BioWare did an excellent job writing her in this game. If ot were not so, we wouldn't even be discussing it the way we are. So in essence, good writing keeps you coming back for more, it gives you mixed emotions (like in this case, where Liara has gained lots of love and lots of hate).

[KumoriOokami]

speedy111280 wrote...

FdL_Ananas wrote...

Being a Liara fan myself, I don't get the discussion about her "bad written total change into an icecold business woman / killer" at all. (No offense meant to anybody here)

In my eyes there are so many glimpses of her "real" self in every interaction with her ...

I agree with you. I've never seen it as bad writing, in fact I've always thought Liara had the capability of being the person she's pretending to be, at least if she wanted to.

I also feel this way about how she's portrayed in ME2.  I don't think she's out of character.  I'm still sad that I can't kick the SB's butt and recruit Liara for my 'yay let's save the galaxy' team though.  :innocent:

[Urazz]

If Liara isn't a squadmate in ME3, I hope she'll be on the Normandy as Shepard's source of information at least.

[maikanix]

Urazz wrote...

If Liara isn't a squadmate in ME3, I hope she'll be on the Normandy as Shepard's source of information at least.

And she'd stay in my cabin, of course.

[speedy111280]

bjdbwea wrote...

As you say, this is your interpretation. And I think you're interpreting too much into it, no offense. If the developers thought anything more than "Wait, we still need to put Liara in the game, you know, that one character from ME 1? Hey, why don't we use her to throw in a few more instances of our amazing hacking game! I bet people will love that much more than that romance dialogue we've been talking about!", then they have to communicate their intentions. This is not a guessing game.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree because I couldn't disagree with you more. I certainly don't think Liara's role in ME2 was an almost afterthought since they made her the whole reason Shepard is even alive for ME2 to occur.

I have to point out that almost all fictional works require us to interpret characters actions, what motivates a character is very rarely laid out for us. They cannot simply have Liara spell out her motivations, there would never be any action if everyone sat around and explained their motivations. We are supposed to interpret them based on what they do say and what we know of them so I don't think anyone is interpreting too much into it because it's their interpretation. That's the joy of western RPG's, the story is what you make of it.

[Nozybidaj]

KumoriOokami wrote...

I also feel this way about how she's portrayed in ME2.  I don't think she's out of character.  I'm still sad that I can't kick the SB's butt and recruit Liara for my 'yay let's save the galaxy' team though.  :innocent:

I think there are times she was in character. 

Being all ackward trying to intimidate someone, in character.  Being all sad telling Shep about what happened, in character.  Offing Nyxerus after learning she was the observer, ehhh, kinda in character, she seemed to enjoy it way too much. 

Being a homicidal nutcase at the mere mention of the Shadow Broker, not in character.  Liara was never some fragile little flower, I don't buy that what happened could have changed her that much.  I do think it would be appropriate to show anger and a bit of obsession in going after the Shadow Broker but they made it too grimdark for it to be Liara.  Even her anger should have been a little ackward for her.

Making no mention of her feelings for Shepard after everything she went through for him, especially if they are LI's, not in character.  I don't buy this one at all.  If the person you had risked everything for came back to you after two years of being dead there would be no way you should have let them leave that office without telling them how you feel, especially when those feelings were reciprocated.  It was a glaring omission in my eyes.

Shepard is basically just a statue through the whole thing.  Not even worth mentioning how out of place this is.

[Sharn01]

Mox Ruuga wrote...


Now we just need a flock of sheep and we too can have this maxim repeated for 725+ pages on our own Liara spam thread.

Not really, I have taken a peek at the other fan threads and its mostly lacking in substance, just non stop posts of pics,( a few are good but way to much), and inane ramblings, usually by  the same people over and over, such and such is so hot, such and such it hot in this pic, such and such is hot in every pic, etc.

Most of the posts in the multiple Liara threads contain substance, and I like it that way.

[Larask]

Nozybidaj wrote...

I think there are times she was in character. 

Being all ackward trying to intimidate someone, in character.  Being all sad telling Shep about what happened, in character.  Offing Nyxerus after learning she was the observer, ehhh, kinda in character, she seemed to enjoy it way too much. 

Being a homicidal nutcase at the mere mention of the Shadow Broker, not in character.  Liara was never some fragile little flower, I don't buy that what happened could have changed her that much.  I do think it would be appropriate to show anger and a bit of obsession in going after the Shadow Broker but they made it too grimdark for it to be Liara.  Even her anger should have been a little ackward for her.

Making no mention of her feelings for Shepard after everything she went through for him, especially if they are LI's, not in character.  I don't buy this one at all.  If the person you had risked everything for came back to you after two years of being dead there would be no way you should have let them leave that office without telling them how you feel, especially when those feelings were reciprocated.  It was a glaring omission in my eyes.

Shepard is basically just a statue through the whole thing.  Not even worth mentioning how out of place this is.

I totally agree with you. This whole thing was caused b/c of Shepard, and now that Shepard is standing right in front of Liara, she just lets her/him walk away. It doesn't add up...

[HomicidialFrog]

Nozybidaj wrote...

HomicidialFrog wrote...

I just thought of something interesting: ....

No.

Well I thought it was a good idea anyway...<_<

[stormrain]

Sharn01 wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...


Now we just need a flock of sheep and we too can have this maxim repeated for 725+ pages on our own Liara spam thread.

Not really, I have taken a peek at the other fan threads and its mostly lacking in substance, just non stop posts of pics,( a few are good but way to much), and inane ramblings, usually by  the same people over and over, such and such is so hot, such and such it hot in this pic, such and such is hot in every pic, etc.

Most of the posts in the multiple Liara threads contain substance, and I like it that way.

I agree. We have quality over quantity.

[HomicidialFrog]

[quote]Nozybidaj wrote...

[quote]KumoriOokami wrote...

Liara was never some fragile little flower, I don't buy that what happened could have changed her that much.
[/quote]

I have to disagree with you there, I think from a few signs in Mass Effect 1 and of course the beginning of Mass Effect 2 it's fair to say she's a little...unstable. Although I doubt she would turn into some kind of physcopathe like she has now, although I think it's more of an Anti-Social disorder rather than turning Physcopathic. Or are those the same thing? Not an expert, so I could be wrong. Hell, I just did a quick 10 minute research about different Mental disorders for the hell of it. You never know when that knowledge would be useful.

And she showed obvious signs of having an Avoidant disorder, I would assume it's possible that it evolved in to an Anti-Social disorder, if that's even possible.

[Nozybidaj]

HomicidialFrog wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

HomicidialFrog wrote...

I just thought of something interesting: ....

No.

Well I thought it was a good idea anyway...<_<

Sorry I was rude.  I apologize, forcing a renegade path as the only recourse for keeping Liara alive is not a good idea.  Plan out a path where both paragon and renegade can succeed.

[Zegla]

FdL_Ananas wrote...

Beeing a Liara fan myself, I don't get the discussion about her "bad written total change into an icecold business woman / killer" at all. (No offense meant to anybody here)

In my eyes there are so many glimpses of her "real" self in every interaction with her ...

The tone of her voice constantly changes between cool distance, rabid hate and even despair, at least on a subtle level. (Kudos for her voice actress btw). She dosen't sit still on her chair, but stands up times and times again just to sit down two sentences later. She is talking about trust and can't look Shepard in the eyes but stares out of the window.

In that first (Kiss) scene, she shows her "real" self for a moment, beeing overjoyed with Shepards arrival. And when she stops that kiss and shakes her head it's basically because there are so much emotions welling up and confusing her.

She wants to protect her own life and "business" from all those curious, ill-natured eyes that undoubtedly are observing her. She wants to protect Shepards life from them. (This beeing the more obvious reason that Shepard can see and understand, as maikanix wrote)
But there is also this terrible fear in her that Shepard might reject and hate her because of her role in his/her resurrection by Cerberus. She doesn't want the relationship to go too deep again at the moment because in her deep love for Shepard * she simply can't bear that thought of loosing it (again).

And in the background there's allways all the unprocessed grief for her previous losses and hate for her current situation and she projects all that (not entirely wrongly) on the Shadow Broker...

All this isn't the behaviour of a cold, calculating woman. This is the girl Liara we know from ME1, still not entirely able to deal with all those strong emotions in her young mind. This is the "real" Liara trying to shield her inner self with a cold fassade from a brutal, dark side of the universe she didn't know at all until Shepard, Geth and Reapers burst suddenly in her life, roughly 2 1/2 years ago.

Yes, one can undoubtedly discuss if there should be more options for us in Shepard's role to interact with her. **

But that "change" in Liara's personality makes perfect sense to me and I consider it not bad but - on the contrary - excellent writing!

This is my interpretation, thanks for reading, now /discuss

I agree that the old Me1 Liara is still there to some extent, and there are times were you can see that  (like when she burst out "Shepard" the first time you enter her office), but then, at other times, it feels like you're talking to a completely different Asari. It's not bad writing at all, it's just that I would've never guessed that the writers would steer her personality in that direction.

And I do hope that they (again, the writers) put as much thought in her change as you (and others) do, and it's not just her new "dark,edgy and cool" personality.

As I said in my previous post I still don't know what I think of all this, and after spending two weeks replaying and analysing Liara's cameo in my head, I'm still confused

But all we can do is wait and see (and speculate).

Anyway, great analysis .


Oh, and I also want to say that it hurts, seeing Liara like that. The entire encounter is just so sad . Where is that hug-interrupt when you need it!?!

Modifié par Zegla, 15 février 2010 - 02:18 .

[HomicidialFrog]

Nozybidaj wrote...

HomicidialFrog wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

HomicidialFrog wrote...

I just thought of something interesting: ....

No.

Well I thought it was a good idea anyway...<_<

Sorry I was rude.  I apologize, forcing a renegade path as the only recourse for keeping Liara alive is not a good idea.  Plan out a path where both paragon and renegade can succeed.

It's okay. But then there's no drama so what's the point? If your incredibly heroic Shepard that will do anything to help people and do nothing to help himself will go against his morals like that it's shows how much he cares.

Because these days a simple "I love you" with some flowers just isn't enough.

[Nozybidaj]

HomicidialFrog wrote...


It's okay. But then there's no drama so what's the point? If your incredibly heroic Shepard that will do anything to help people and do nothing to help himself will go against his morals like that it's shows how much he cares.

Because these days a simple "I love you" with some flowers just isn't enough.

I think my Paragon Shep would find a better way to do it and still save the day.  That's half the point of playing Paragon.

[Sharn01]

The option to buy Liara some flowers at one of the Illium shops and bring them to her actually would have been very much appreciated by me, and probably by Liara as well.

I have been married for some time now, and trust me, there is never a time when flowers are a bad idea.

Modifié par Sharn01, 15 février 2010 - 02:09 .

[HomicidialFrog]

Nozybidaj wrote...

HomicidialFrog wrote...


It's okay. But then there's no drama so what's the point? If your incredibly heroic Shepard that will do anything to help people and do nothing to help himself will go against his morals like that it's shows how much he cares.

Because these days a simple "I love you" with some flowers just isn't enough.

I think my Paragon Shep would find a better way to do it and still save the day.  That's half the point of playing Paragon.

Alright, there can be a Paragon option without having Liara killed...<_ I just figured with the "darker" tone there having usually in a story about a hero that has dark aspects, usually the Hero can't save everyone. (Like the Dark Knight for example.)
 

[Pineappletree]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

[...]

. BioWare did an excellent job writing her in this game. If ot were not so, we wouldn't even be discussing it the way we are. So in essence, good writing keeps you coming back for more, it gives you mixed emotions (like in this case, where Liara has gained lots of love and lots of hate).

speedy111280 wrote...

[...]

I certainly don't think
Liara's role in ME2 was an almost afterthought since they made her the
whole reason Shepard is even alive for ME2 to occur.

I have to
point out that almost all fictional works require us to interpret
characters actions, what motivates a character is very rarely laid out
for us. They cannot simply have Liara spell out her motivations, there
would never be any action if everyone sat around and explained their
motivations. We are supposed to interpret them based on what they do say
and what we know of them so I don't think anyone is interpreting too
much into it because it's their interpretation. That's the joy of
western RPG's, the story is what you make of it.

Was about to write something like that so thank you both for saving me time.

And back on topic:

I think Liara's single biggest fear is loss. We learnt in ME1 that she had problems bonding with other people, and when she finaly did, all those people where violentely taken from her (her mother, Shepard, Feron).

That's why she wraps herself with this cold fassade now, that's why she has so much trouble to allow herself to feel love for Shepard or maybe even anything other than hate and lust for revenge. She simply doesn't want to get hurt again.

I 'm only halfway through Liara's story in my second more thorough playthrough, so I can't really comment on her being over the top in her further mentions of the SB. Up 'till now I didn't feel that .

And hey, I just heard my Shepard yelling "Damnit Liara, I came here to talk to you, not to help with your petty vendettas!". I wouldn't call that being a statue exactely


€

KumoriOokami wrote...

[...]

I'm still sad that I
can't kick the SB's butt and recruit Liara for my 'yay let's save the
galaxy' team though.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

Hehe, I'm with you on that. But we still got one game and one DLC (?) left to hope for

Modifié par FdL_Ananas, 15 février 2010 - 02:27 .

[Nozybidaj]

FdL_Ananas wrote...



And hey, I just heard my Shepard yelling "Damnit Liara, I came here to talk to you, not to help with your petty vendettas!". I wouldn't call that being a statue exactely

So our options are to be a statue or a jerk?  Sorry, still not satisfied.

No matter how people rationalize it the fact that there is no "Liara: I don't want to loose you again!  Shepard:  I'll be back for you when my mission is done.  *cue big goodbye smooch*" option completely made the scene fall flat for anyone who had her as an LI.  That is really all it would have taken.

Bah.  I'm tired of rehashing all this over and over again.  I don't think the devs care and all we are doing is irritating each other.

[Pineappletree]

In that situation I wouldn't call that being a jerk. I would call it Shepard being frustrated because Liara doesn't really respond to his/ her feelings. Pretty much exactely what many people here are so upset about

But ok, we got different views on this - let's leave it at that and see what the future brings...

Modifié par FdL_Ananas, 15 février 2010 - 03:07 .

[Driveninhifi]

To respond to FdL_Ananas:

I do like where they took the character, I just think it needed more development. The problem, to me, is they needed to show her development in game, instead of just tell you about it. Or at least give you more dialogue. Even a line where she confides in Shepard that she hates what she's had to do, been lonely, etc, would have gone a long way.

Also the fact that the was no way for their relationship to come up in conversation is pretty unbelievable - I'd say that's just poor writing. They clearly want to keep the player in the dark, but it's hard to justify taking logical conversation options away from the player in this type of game. When you do, it feels very artificial. Not every Shepard would bring it up, but I think many certainly would, especially after their lover tells them she's doing all this stuff mainly because she couldn't let them go.