2439 réponses à ce sujet

[Sharn01]

One of these happened with Liara in ME2.

The Devs know they messed things up big and are afraid to say anything.

They had to mess things up because they where told not to develope Liara until after the comic, and are afraid to say anything.

They where told to mess things up to make the ME2 LI look good and are currently high fiving each other at how many people are upset with the Liara romance.

They are not only horrible writer's, but are completely oblivious to the fan base and think they did a fine job.

The question is, which one is it?

Modifié par Sharn01, 15 février 2010 - 11:37 .

[Driveninhifi]

I don't know if that's particularly fair. There's probably a combination of wanting to push players towards the new characters and wanting to develop Liara in the comics and DLC.

Being in the trenches during a long project makes it hard to look at it objectively. I think that probably has a lot to do with it - I know I've been guilty of it plenty of time at work. That, coupled with deadline pressure means things have to be cut.

I doubt they are high-fiving each other because people are mad. BioWare has shown time and again that they listen to the players, and they undoubtedly see these threads. Now, they may feel we are being unfair because they know how the story will end (and they have the motivations for the character in their own heads) - but I'd argue that we have presented fair and compelling arguments on the weakness of the presentation in game.

When every review of the comic starts with something along the lines of "Liara doesn't act in character" it's hard to deny something went wrong. It's not particularly fair to make a final judgement before the comics are all released, but it is hard, as a reader, to give them the benefit of the doubt when they appear to start in the wrong place.

They aren't horrible writers - the game in general is very well written. It's just that the low point in the writing and characterization involves a dramatic change to a character from the first game. This leaves the player confused as they aren't given enough information to determine whether Liara's development is believable, and also frustrated at the lack of dialogue options (which are artificially limited).

[Mephilez]

maybe we can see here flay someone...with her mind, dun dun dun!

[Sharn01]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I don't know if that's particularly fair. There's probably a combination of wanting to push players towards the new characters and wanting to develop Liara in the comics and DLC.
Being in the trenches during a long project makes it hard to look at it objectively. I think that probably has a lot to do with it - I know I've been guilty of it plenty of time at work. That, coupled with deadline pressure means things have to be cut.
I doubt they are high-fiving each other because people are mad. BioWare has shown time and again that they listen to the players, and they undoubtedly see these threads. Now, they may feel we are being unfair because they know how the story will end (and they have the motivations for the character in their own heads) - but I'd argue that we have presented fair and compelling arguments on the weakness of the presentation in game.
When every review of the comic starts with something along the lines of "Liara doesn't act in character" it's hard to deny something went wrong. It's not particularly fair to make a final judgement before the comics are all released, but it is hard, as a reader, to give them the benefit of the doubt when they appear to start in the wrong place.
They aren't horrible writers - the game in general is very well written. It's just that the low point in the writing and characterization involves a dramatic change to a character from the first game. This leaves the player confused as they aren't given enough information to determine whether Liara's development is believable, and also frustrated at the lack of dialogue options (which are artificially limited).

I never said this is not a possiblity, its just a much more eloquently put version of my first and second examples.  Both of which I am willing to forgive, the first I would like some input on what their plan's are, I realize they can not really apologize, while it would settle me down and earn my respect, they run the risk of angering other's even more.  The second one they probably can not comment on, as their corporate master's would be reigning in the leash on them if they tried.

Modifié par Sharn01, 16 février 2010 - 04:17 .

[ComTrav]

Dunno if this has been posted here yet:

www.comicbookresources.com/

ME: Redemption is selling out, apparently.

[Sharn01]

That could end up being a bad thing.



Look at the success of the comic, lets continue to hide content from our video games and leave customer's confused about character developement and story continuity unless they also buy the comic book. /high fives all around

[TiaraBlade]

SIGN ME UP!!! I LOVE MY BLUE GIRL!!!

[HomicidialFrog]

Is it just me or does the Tali romance feel like a copy+paste from Liara's ME1 romance?



Before some Talimancers flame me(Assuming they come on this thread, I doubt it but you never know.) hear me out:



There are so many similiaraties between the Romances it's ridiculious:



1. Both Liara and Tali are nervous, shy and geeky. Usually get embrassased easily by Shepard and from the start have an attraction to him.



2. Shepard rescues Liara from a mining facility that's abandoned from the Geth. Shepard also rescues Tali from a old Quarian colony that's abandoned from the Geth. There also both doing research on something.



3. Liara's mother dies in ME1.(Only Shepard had no option to comfort her...) Tali's father dies in ME2.



4. Both of them are pretty young. (Tali's only 24, Liara's only 106.)



5. And of course both of them are the only female LI's that are Aliens.



I have a suspicion that the Writers just ripped off Liara's romance from the first game. Talimancers have been screwed over without even realizing it. I wonder if Tali will become a criminal overlord too in the next game. I mean, Liara used to be the most popular love interest and now Tali is...

[ComTrav]

HomicidialFrog wrote...

Is it just me or does the Tali romance feel like a copy+paste from Liara's ME1 romance?

Before some Talimancers flame me(Assuming they come on this thread, I doubt it but you never know.) hear me out:

There are so many similiaraties between the Romances it's ridiculious:

1. Both Liara and Tali are nervous, shy and geeky. Usually get embrassased easily by Shepard and from the start have an attraction to him.

2. Shepard rescues Liara from a mining facility that's abandoned from the Geth. Shepard also rescues Tali from a old Quarian colony that's abandoned from the Geth. There also both doing research on something.

3. Liara's mother dies in ME1.(Only Shepard had no option to comfort her...) Tali's father dies in ME2.

4. Both of them are pretty young. (Tali's only 24, Liara's only 106.)

5. And of course both of them are the only female LI's that are Aliens.

I have a suspicion that the Writers just ripped off Liara's romance from the first game. Talimancers have been screwed over without even realizing it. I wonder if Tali will become a criminal overlord too in the next game. I mean, Liara used to be the most popular love interest and now Tali is...

As someone who like Tali, but a non-Talimancer, who did not romance Liara....

You're not wrong. I always felt like Liara and Tali both fit into the "cute, awkward, dorky girl" niche. (And Shepard is the first serious relationship for both of them.)

Though I'm actually a little surprised at how closely their arcs mirror each other. (Good catch on the parental death thing.)

Ashley and Miranda are comparatively more experienced in relationships, but they don't have the same niche (Miranda's the more experienced career woman, Ashley's more of the girl-next-door tomboy.)

[Nozybidaj]

HomicidialFrog wrote...

Is it just me or does the Tali romance feel like a copy+paste from Liara's ME1 romance?

Before some Talimancers flame me(Assuming they come on this thread, I doubt it but you never know.) hear me out:

There are so many similiaraties between the Romances it's ridiculious:

1. Both Liara and Tali are nervous, shy and geeky. Usually get embrassased easily by Shepard and from the start have an attraction to him.

2. Shepard rescues Liara from a mining facility that's abandoned from the Geth. Shepard also rescues Tali from a old Quarian colony that's abandoned from the Geth. There also both doing research on something.

3. Liara's mother dies in ME1.(Only Shepard had no option to comfort her...) Tali's father dies in ME2.

4. Both of them are pretty young. (Tali's only 24, Liara's only 106.)

5. And of course both of them are the only female LI's that are Aliens.

I have a suspicion that the Writers just ripped off Liara's romance from the first game. Talimancers have been screwed over without even realizing it. I wonder if Tali will become a criminal overlord too in the next game. I mean, Liara used to be the most popular love interest and now Tali is...

Tali is just trying to copy Liara.  She'll always be a pale comparison to Shep's true love.

[HomicidialFrog]

ComTrav wrote...

HomicidialFrog wrote...

Is it just me or does the Tali romance feel like a copy+paste from Liara's ME1 romance?

Before some Talimancers flame me(Assuming they come on this thread, I doubt it but you never know.) hear me out:

There are so many similiaraties between the Romances it's ridiculious:

1. Both Liara and Tali are nervous, shy and geeky. Usually get embrassased easily by Shepard and from the start have an attraction to him.

2. Shepard rescues Liara from a mining facility that's abandoned from the Geth. Shepard also rescues Tali from a old Quarian colony that's abandoned from the Geth. There also both doing research on something.

3. Liara's mother dies in ME1.(Only Shepard had no option to comfort her...) Tali's father dies in ME2.

4. Both of them are pretty young. (Tali's only 24, Liara's only 106.)

5. And of course both of them are the only female LI's that are Aliens.

I have a suspicion that the Writers just ripped off Liara's romance from the first game. Talimancers have been screwed over without even realizing it. I wonder if Tali will become a criminal overlord too in the next game. I mean, Liara used to be the most popular love interest and now Tali is...

As someone who like Tali, but a non-Talimancer, who did not romance Liara....

You're not wrong. I always felt like Liara and Tali both fit into the "cute, awkward, dorky girl" niche. (And Shepard is the first serious relationship for both of them.)

Though I'm actually a little surprised at how closely their arcs mirror each other. (Good catch on the parental death thing.)

Ashley and Miranda are comparatively more experienced in relationships, but they don't have the same niche (Miranda's the more experienced career woman, Ashley's more of the girl-next-door tomboy.)

Oh and another thing, Shepard totally bandits both of their virginities.

[ComTrav]

I don't think Bioware anticipated how massively successful a 'faceless' LI could be. Making a universally attractive body is much easier then making a universally attractive face, especially in CGI.



(I think about this a lot every time I hear Miranda being called a potato-face, which is an insult Ashley/Liara should totally use in ME3's Love Triangle confrontation.)

[Driveninhifi]

Comics selling out isn't uncommon - usually you basically subscribe at stores. Their print runs aren't very big because not a lot of people read comics (in comparison to other media, I mean).
The comic itself is very uneven, in both the art and the story. For everything it does right, it does something else very wrong. It really suffers because it can't make any assumptions about Shepard; Liara would likely be a fairly different character based on Shep being highly renegade or paragon, not to mention the effect of being Shep's lover would have on her search. I do wonder how they will end it - two issues are done and really not much has happened at all. I haven't been that impressed thus far, but I'll reserve final judgement until the series ends.

Also, Tali's romance is totally fulfilling the same sort of wish/desire/whatever that Liara did in ME1. It's the shy, awkward nerdbait romance. Except now you can potentially kill your love interest by consummating your relationship!

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 16 février 2010 - 05:22 .

[Kileyan]

No thanks, she's been an info broker for the last many years. We should recruit her for information contacts, not as a squad member. She has spent this many years being good at something, let her do it, and gather info for us, not jump on the Normandy and just be another biotic among many.

[KumoriOokami]

Kileyan wrote...

No thanks, she's been an info broker for the last many years. We should recruit her for information contacts, not as a squad member. She has spent this many years being good at something, let her do it, and gather info for us, not jump on the Normandy and just be another biotic among many.

Blasphemy!  Liara is a biotic goddess!

[ComTrav]

I'm a bit of a comic fan so I've been thinking of picking it up...but I'm usually a wait-for-the-trade guy. And the creative team's not ringing any huge bells for me. (I admit to being tempted by the WoW comic because its Walt Simonson.)

[Sharn01]

HomicidialFrog wrote...
Oh and another thing, Shepard totally bandits both of their virginities.

My femShep was a virgin when she met Liara.  Cereer minded Lesbian never got a chance to fall in love.

[HomicidialFrog]

Sharn01 wrote...

HomicidialFrog wrote...
Oh and another thing, Shepard totally bandits both of their virginities.

My femShep was a virgin when she met Liara.  Cereer minded Lesbian never got a chance to fall in love.

My Earthborn Shepard definatly wasn't...Where he grew up there was plenty of "social workers" :innocent:

[Driveninhifi]

Kileyan wrote...

No thanks, she's been an info broker for the last many years. We should recruit her for information contacts, not as a squad member. She has spent this many years being good at something, let her do it, and gather info for us, not jump on the Normandy and just be another biotic among many.

Yeah, but it makes more sense for her to want to rejoin Shepard. She clearly wants to in ME2, and once the Shadow Broker is gone, she has no reason to be an info broker anymore. They outright tell you the only reason she's doing the whole broker thing is to find the SB - she'd clearly rather be with Shepard (especially in the love case).