2439 réponses à ce sujet

[Unit-Alpha]

Driveninhifi wrote...

She says "I watched him die. This is my chance for redemption. Helping me can be yours too" (to Feron). Two comics in and she really doesn't like or trust Feron (thus far). So it's unlikely she will hook up with him unless the writing takes a serious nosedive. He probably saves her when they recover the body (as I mentioned before).

I do think Liara is putting up a front - it's the only thing that makes sense for the character. I just think that it would be hard to maintain that much anger once the person you are avenging reappears and isn't angry with you. Now, if Shepard is a jerk it makes total sense, but you can definitely tell her you don't blame her in that conversation.

I still don't get why you can't ask her about the relationship though.....bad choice on Bioware's part. Feels extremely fake - why wouldn't you ask your love interest where you stand before you head out on a suicide mission?

We'll have to see what the Liara DLC brings....

If they make Feron and Liara a couple, I would be stunned. Out of your entire ME1 crew, Liara seems the most devoted to you, even if you aren't her LI.

[Nozybidaj]

juxtaposedjoker wrote...

So the question is: what the hell did Liara do that made her feel that she needed to be redeemed?

I'm guessing it is the whole "leaving Shep to die alone on the ship" thing.  There isn't much time between the Normandy being attacked to the comic for much else to have happened I would think.

[jlb524]

Driveninhifi wrote...

She says "I watched him die. This is my chance for redemption. Helping me can be yours too" (to Feron). Two comics in and she really doesn't like or trust Feron (thus far). So it's unlikely she will hook up with him unless the writing takes a serious nosedive. He probably saves her when they recover the body (as I mentioned before).

It's kind of odd that Liara would blame herself for what happened to Shepard on the Normandy.  I've just watched that scene again recently....there's not much Liara could have done.  Unless she blames herself for not grabbing Shepard and forcing her into an escape pod.

Driveninhifi wrote...

I do think Liara is putting up a front - it's the only thing that makes sense for the character. I just think that it would be hard to maintain that much anger once the person you are avenging reappears and isn't angry with you. Now, if Shepard is a jerk it makes total sense, but you can definitely tell her you don't blame her in that conversation.

Liara does become a little softer when you tell her you're not angry with her, though.  I think she even smiles.

Driveninhifi wrote...

I still don't get why you can't ask her about the relationship though.....bad choice on Bioware's part. Feels extremely fake - why wouldn't you ask your love interest where you stand before you head out on a suicide mission?

Yeah, I don't get this either.  I would have like a little more before or after the suicide mission as well.

[speedy111280]

Barquiel wrote...
TIM thinks that Liara is working FOR the Shadow Broker...I wonder why!

I think that line from TIM is a ploy to try to get Shepard to forget about Liara. TIM does his best to try to keep Shepard seperated from Liara and Ash/Kaidan. He tells Shepard Liara is working for the Shadow Broker and sets it up so Ash/Kaidan find out Shepard is working for Cerberus.

[Driveninhifi]

The comic does go into a bit - she wonders why she's the one that survived while Shepard dies, essentially. Kind of like what Kaidan says, I suppose.



I actually think she has the BEST reason to not come with you - but it was presented poorly. She absolutely has to believe the Shadow Broker must be stopped, and must also think she's the only one that can do it. Just vengeance isn't enough - there was to be more. If it were just vengeance then there's no reason for her not to come with Shepard and stop the Shadow Broker later.

Maybe it's as she says - for Shepard, for Feron and to stop whatever the Shadow Broker is doing. Dunno....Seems she needs to have some idea of the bad stuff the Shadow Broker is doing, something that makes her think the shadow broker can't be allowed to continue.

[DigitalMaster37]

juxtaposedjoker wrote...

Liara could beat Semara in a fight? WHAT?! Now I'm a hard core nut ball Liara fan but no matter how awesome one of her parents was at biotics she is still a young adult and Semara just a weeeeee bit older and experienced. If Liara could be Semara there would have to be a good reason otherwise it sort of goes against cannon if you think about it.

Though it sure as hell would be interesting if Liara's actions in her vendetta against the SB attracted the attention of a certain justicar as unjust....

Just look at how close the fight with Morinth was and it becomes clear Liara would wipe the floor with Samara.

[jlb524]

Driveninhifi wrote...

The comic does go into a bit - she wonders why she's the one that survived while Shepard dies, essentially. Kind of like what Kaidan says, I suppose.

I actually think she has the BEST reason to not come with you - but it was presented poorly. She absolutely has to believe the Shadow Broker must be stopped, and must also think she's the only one that can do it. Just vengeance isn't enough - there was to be more. If it were just vengeance then there's no reason for her not to come with Shepard and stop the Shadow Broker later.
Maybe it's as she says - for Shepard, for Feron and to stop whatever the Shadow Broker is doing. Dunno....Seems she needs to have some idea of the bad stuff the Shadow Broker is doing, something that makes her think the shadow broker can't be allowed to continue.

The Shadow Broker could be plotting something against Shepard..  It's possible that while the SB is still around, Shepard is in grave danger.  Liara would then be trying to stop the SB before he/she/it harms Shepard, and this would definitely be a good reason why she can't join you.

[ERJAK2]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

juxtaposedjoker wrote...

Liara could beat Semara in a fight? WHAT?! Now I'm a hard core nut ball Liara fan but no matter how awesome one of her parents was at biotics she is still a young adult and Semara just a weeeeee bit older and experienced. If Liara could be Semara there would have to be a good reason otherwise it sort of goes against cannon if you think about it.

Though it sure as hell would be interesting if Liara's actions in her vendetta against the SB attracted the attention of a certain justicar as unjust....

Just look at how close the fight with Morinth was and it becomes clear Liara would wipe the floor with Samara.

Logical error. We never see Morinth fight Liara. Beyond that Morinth is AT LEAST 400 years old, has her mothers biotic training, and is an Ardat-Yakshi which is implied to make her more powerful. 

Liara is probably close to Samara/Morinth/Jack levels of ability, but to have her be that powerful at 108 with no crazy experimentation or modification, just kinda seems unfair.

[Unit-Alpha]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

juxtaposedjoker wrote...

Liara could beat Semara in a fight? WHAT?! Now I'm a hard core nut ball Liara fan but no matter how awesome one of her parents was at biotics she is still a young adult and Semara just a weeeeee bit older and experienced. If Liara could be Semara there would have to be a good reason otherwise it sort of goes against cannon if you think about it.

Though it sure as hell would be interesting if Liara's actions in her vendetta against the SB attracted the attention of a certain justicar as unjust....

Just look at how close the fight with Morinth was and it becomes clear Liara would wipe the floor with Samara.

Logical error. We never see Morinth fight Liara. Beyond that Morinth is AT LEAST 400 years old, has her mothers biotic training, and is an Ardat-Yakshi which is implied to make her more powerful. 

Liara is probably close to Samara/Morinth/Jack levels of ability, but to have her be that powerful at 108 with no crazy experimentation or modification, just kinda seems unfair.

Logically, Liara and Samara would be balanced if you are looking gameplay-wise. Storywise, it's difficult to tell if Liara is in fact somewhat of a biotic genius, but Samara never seems to be at that level.

[DigitalMaster37]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

juxtaposedjoker wrote...

Liara could beat Semara in a fight? WHAT?! Now I'm a hard core nut ball Liara fan but no matter how awesome one of her parents was at biotics she is still a young adult and Semara just a weeeeee bit older and experienced. If Liara could be Semara there would have to be a good reason otherwise it sort of goes against cannon if you think about it.

Though it sure as hell would be interesting if Liara's actions in her vendetta against the SB attracted the attention of a certain justicar as unjust....

Just look at how close the fight with Morinth was and it becomes clear Liara would wipe the floor with Samara.

Logical error. We never see Morinth fight Liara. Beyond that Morinth is AT LEAST 400 years old, has her mothers biotic training, and is an Ardat-Yakshi which is implied to make her more powerful. 

Liara is probably close to Samara/Morinth/Jack levels of ability, but to have her be that powerful at 108 with no crazy experimentation or modification, just kinda seems unfair.

Not really. For one I meant that Samara's fight with Morinth was too close for comfort, so that nullifies her "uber experience" although she is no slouch either. My point now shifts to the fact that Liara also has a mother who was argueably more powerful than Samara is. I'd put my money on Liara, although it would be a great fight.

I admit though, part of my logic is actual logic, and the rest is blind Liara fanboysim.    

[Malanek]

Driveninhifi wrote...

The comic does go into a bit - she wonders why she's the one that survived while Shepard dies, essentially. Kind of like what Kaidan says, I suppose.

I actually think she has the BEST reason to not come with you - but it was presented poorly. She absolutely has to believe the Shadow Broker must be stopped, and must also think she's the only one that can do it. Just vengeance isn't enough - there was to be more. If it were just vengeance then there's no reason for her not to come with Shepard and stop the Shadow Broker later.
Maybe it's as she says - for Shepard, for Feron and to stop whatever the Shadow Broker is doing. Dunno....Seems she needs to have some idea of the bad stuff the Shadow Broker is doing, something that makes her think the shadow broker can't be allowed to continue.

Interesting idea. Perhaps the shadow broker has been feeding information to the reapers. Maybe it was even the reason they knew of the Normandys location when it was destroyed.

What is this comic? Is it online?

[Unit-Alpha]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

juxtaposedjoker wrote...

Liara could beat Semara in a fight? WHAT?! Now I'm a hard core nut ball Liara fan but no matter how awesome one of her parents was at biotics she is still a young adult and Semara just a weeeeee bit older and experienced. If Liara could be Semara there would have to be a good reason otherwise it sort of goes against cannon if you think about it.

Though it sure as hell would be interesting if Liara's actions in her vendetta against the SB attracted the attention of a certain justicar as unjust....

Just look at how close the fight with Morinth was and it becomes clear Liara would wipe the floor with Samara.

Logical error. We never see Morinth fight Liara. Beyond that Morinth is AT LEAST 400 years old, has her mothers biotic training, and is an Ardat-Yakshi which is implied to make her more powerful. 

Liara is probably close to Samara/Morinth/Jack levels of ability, but to have her be that powerful at 108 with no crazy experimentation or modification, just kinda seems unfair.

Not really. For one I meant that Samara's fight with Morinth was too close for comfort, so that nullifies her "uber experience" although she is no slouch either. My point now shifts to the fact that Liara also has a mother who was argueably more powerful than Samara is. I'd put my money on Liara, although it would be a great fight.

I admit though, part of my logic is actual logic, and the rest is blind Liara fanboysim.    

Yeah, I wondered why they made the Morith-Samara fight so close. I would say that they are about at the same level as Shepard has to interfere and determine the winner. Besides, I never got the sense that Morith was particularly skilled in biotics, as it was mainly her being an Ardat-Yakshi that gave her any real power.

[Unit-Alpha]

Malanek999 wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

The comic does go into a bit - she wonders why she's the one that survived while Shepard dies, essentially. Kind of like what Kaidan says, I suppose.

I actually think she has the BEST reason to not come with you - but it was presented poorly. She absolutely has to believe the Shadow Broker must be stopped, and must also think she's the only one that can do it. Just vengeance isn't enough - there was to be more. If it were just vengeance then there's no reason for her not to come with Shepard and stop the Shadow Broker later.
Maybe it's as she says - for Shepard, for Feron and to stop whatever the Shadow Broker is doing. Dunno....Seems she needs to have some idea of the bad stuff the Shadow Broker is doing, something that makes her think the shadow broker can't be allowed to continue.

Interesting idea. Perhaps the shadow broker has been feeding information to the reapers. Maybe it was even the reason they knew of the Normandys location when it was destroyed.

What is this comic? Is it online?

Look on the Mass Effect homepage, you can download the first issue free on iTunes.

[ratzerman]

I posted the following in the ME1 Love Interest group last week, but since there are so many awesome Liara fans in this thread, I thought I'd share it here too. It's my overly long explanation of how the Liara missions aren't really about hacking at all. They're about Shepard breaking down the emotional barriers Liara has put up around herself. I'd love feedback, positive or negative.....

Liara is a broken woman, consumed with guilt and regret. But she's insecure, and still lacks the skills to deal with her feelings effectively. Factor in the added stress of being under constant surveillance, and it becomes clear that she has hidden herself behind emotional walls.

And it becomes Shepard's job to knock down those walls.

As you find out later, she doesn't want Shepard to know the truth. She doesn't want Shepard to "hate" her. So she tries to put on a brave face, talks about having too much work to do, and all that. But she can't pull it off. She comes off all wrong, and Shepard knows it. That's why you can respond with an annoyed "what's this all about? Can't you just talk to me?" Liara doesn't even crack a smile until you offer to help her. First wall down.

After the first tasks are done, she relaxes a tiny bit. She says that she "wishes" she could do her work on the Normandy, but she can't. She also tells you about the Observer. Taking on that assignment knocks down a second wall. She's still somewhat aloof and business like, but she's also nervous and agitated; constantly sitting and standing, and pounding her hand on the desk.

It's not until the Observer has been dealt with that we get to talk to the real Liara, and even then, you have to pick the right dialog options. Your chance comes when Liara makes the "coffee cup" comment. In that moment, she is raw and angry, and Shepard knows that her defenses are down. So she asks where her anger is coming from.

And then the floodgates open, and you see the real Liara, the woman Shepard fell in love with, for the first time. Everything about her in that moment changes. Her walls collapse, and she tells you everything. Ali Hillis and the facial animation team deserve some praise for what they are able to accomplish in this last scene. When you're finally able to knock down the walls Liara has built up around herself, and she breaks down and confesses, it's truly the best piece of NPC acting I've ever seen.

"I gave it to them Shepard, I gave YOU to them...."

Even then, you have to encourage her to continue by asking why she didn't tell you this earlier....

"Because.... I screwed it up, Shepard."

Typing that out, I can hear it in my head. I can see her face. And it is heartbreaking. Liara has led a charmed life, being the daughter of a powerful Matriarch. She spent 50 years excelling in a field of study she enjoyed, wanting for nothing. She then saved the friggin galaxy and fell in love along the way. Liara has never known failure. Until now.

And when she fails..... Whoo Boy, does she ever. Not only did she get Feron captured, and likely killed, but she also condemned the only person she's ever loved to a tortured existence, working for an organization Liara knows she despises. And she didn't even do it for the right reasons. She did it because she "couldn't let you go."

Why did she keep this bottled up inside? Because she didn't want Shepard to "hate" her.

This is other side of the Liara coin. The same social awkwardness that we all thought was so adorable in the first game is still at work here. But here, it manifests itself as guilt, some warranted, some not, and a naive fear of being hated for what she's done. It also shows up as selfishness, an unwillingness to part with something (Shepard) that she treasured.

But Shepard is able to set her straight somewhat, convincing her that she did the right thing. Liara then smiles warmly, leans forward, and thanks Shepard for saying that. If there ever was a right moment for a "hug interrupt" it would've been right then. But no, we don't get that kind of warm and fuzzy ending. Maybe next time.

Modifié par ratzerman, 03 février 2010 - 08:51 .

[Unit-Alpha]

ratzerman wrote...

I posted the following in the ME1 Love Interest group last week, but since there are so many awesome Liara fans in this thread, I thought I'd share it here too. It's my overly long explanation of how the Liara missions aren't really about hacking at all. They're about Shepard breaking down the emotional barriers Liara has put up around herself. I'd love feedback, positive or negative.....

Liara is a broken woman, consumed with guilt and regret. But she's insecure, and still lacks the skills to deal with her feelings effectively. Factor in the added stress of being under constant surveillance, and it becomes clear that she has hidden herself behind emotional walls.

And it becomes Shepard's job to knock down those walls.

As you find out later, she doesn't want Shepard to know the truth. She doesn't want Shepard to "hate" her. So she tries to put on a brave face, talks about having too much work to do, and all that. But she can't pull it off. She comes off all wrong, and Shepard knows it. That's why you can respond with an annoyed "what's this all about? Can't you just talk to me?" Liara doesn't even crack a smile until you offer to help her. First wall down.

After the first tasks are done, she relaxes a tiny bit. She says that she "wishes" she could do her work on the Normandy, but she can't. She also tells you about the Observer. Taking on that assignment knocks down a second wall. She's still somewhat aloof and business like, but she's also nervous and agitated; constantly sitting and standing, and pounding her hand on the desk.

It's not until the Observer has been dealt with that we get to talk to the real Liara, and even then, you have to pick the right dialog options. Your chance comes when Liara makes the "coffee cup" comment. In that moment, she is raw and angry, and Shepard knows that her defenses are down. So she asks where her anger is coming from.

And then the floodgates open, and you see the real Liara, the woman Shepard fell in love with, for the first time. Everything about her in that moment changes. Her walls collapse, and she tells you everything. Ali Hillis and the facial animation team deserve some praise for what they are able to accomplish in this last scene. When you're finally able to knock down the walls Liara has built up around herself, and she breaks down and confesses, it's truly the best piece of NPC acting I've ever seen.

"I gave it to them Shepard, I gave YOU to them...."

Even then, you have to encourage her to continue by asking why she didn't tell you this earlier....

"Because.... I screwed it up, Shepard."

Typing that out, I can hear it in my head. I can see her face. And it is heartbreaking. Liara has led a charmed life, being the daughter of a powerful Matriarch. She spent 50 years excelling in a field of study she enjoyed, wanting for nothing. She then saved the friggin galaxy and fell in love along the way. Liara has never known failure. Until now.

And when she fails..... Whoo Boy, does she ever. Not only did she get Feron captured, and likely killed, but she also condemned the only person she's ever loved to a tortured existence, working for an organization Liara knows she despises. And she didn't even do it for the right reasons. She did it because she "couldn't let you go."

Why did she keep this bottled up inside? Because she didn't want Shepard to "hate" her.

This is other side of the Liara coin. The same social awkwardness that we all thought was so adorable in the first game is still at work here. But here, it manifests itself as guilt, some warranted, some not, and a naive fear of being hated for what she's done. It also shows up as selfishness, an unwillingness to part with something (Shepard) that she treasured.

But Shepard is able to set her straight somewhat, convincing her that she did the right thing. Liara then smiles warmly, leans forward, and thanks Shepard for saying that. If there ever was a right moment for a "hug interrupt" it would've been right then. But no, we don't get that kind of warm and fuzzy ending. Maybe next time.

Yes, I'd say you got everything there. Damn, do you have a private line in on the Bioware guys? I'd say that's by far the best analysis of the Liara situation. Great job!

[jlb524]

It's a perfect analysis. Made even more heart-wrenching now that we know Liara blames herself for Shepard's death and wishes she had died in place of Shepard.

Liara carries a great deal of guilt with her.  And as Ratz mentioned, her social awkwardness leads her to bottle it up and throw up a wall to those she cares about.

Modifié par jlb524, 03 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[Nozybidaj]

ratzerman wrote...

I posted the following in the ME1 Love Interest group last week, but since there are so many awesome Liara fans in this thread, I thought I'd share it here too. It's my overly long explanation of how the Liara missions aren't really about hacking at all. They're about Shepard breaking down the emotional barriers Liara has put up around herself. I'd love feedback, positive or negative.....

While I can appreciate your interpretation of the events, and may even agree with them, the presentation of it in game was horrible.  There still needed to be more to it as well, some sort of "i'll be back for you" from Shepard to show he wasn't completely apathetic about the whole thing.

I still feel that BW dropped the ball on the entire Liara conversation.

[Mox Ruuga]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Well, from what I've seen the negativity hasn't actually been directed AT Liara, just in the direction the character was taken.  That is a fairly important distinction to make.

This deserves to be repeated, as I'm fairly certain it's the truth behind many gamers' anger and disappointment.

Most people aren't pissed at Liara. Rather, they are wondering what the hell the writers were thinking.

When they blast the character, the anger is directed at the transformed UnLiara barking her mother's lines and sending Shepard on errands.

Her scenes called for repeated Paragon interrupts, each resulting in a "Shut Up Kiss".

[ratzerman]

Nozybidaj wrote...

While I can appreciate your interpretation of the events, and may even agree with them, the presentation of it in game was horrible.  There still needed to be more to it as well, some sort of "i'll be back for you" from Shepard to show he wasn't completely apathetic about the whole thing..

I won't call the presentation "horrible," but I agree that there needed to be more.  The lack of any romantic dialogue from Shepard really shocked me.  Not giving us the oppurtunity to express how our Sheps felt about Liara was wrong, and hung over the whole scene.  I kept waiting for "I still love you" to show up on the dialogue wheel.  

I get that Bioware wanted to insert conflict into the romance storylines.  I understand that Casey Hudson intended ME2 to be a "troubled" time for the love interests.  But it just seems cruel not to let us, at the very least, re-affirm Shepard's love for Liara. 

[Driveninhifi]

Oh yeah, I totally agree on your analysis. That's how I interpreted her character as well. That has to be the core of it - she's consumed by guilt. I actually really like that development of the character and think it works well for the character. I don't think it's presented perfectly (it needs a bit more exposition, I think. Or at least more options to talk to her about it). She's not angry at the Shadow Broker - she's actually angry at herself. It makes her a sort of tragic character, which is interesting. I think it would be even MORE interesting if she is in love with Shepard and was not the ME1 LI - the unrequited thing makes it more powerful.

But with that catharsis, wouldn't she want to again be with Shepard? That's why there needs to be more reason for her to keep fighting. She DOES really, really want to be with Shepard. For her to not join up there needs to be a large "duty" element of her fight, and I'm not sure that guilt is enough. I totally think guilt would carry her most of those two years, but it falls apart once Shepard is in front of her again.

There's a lot of potential there, actually. She's really torn between this duty she feels she must accomplish and her desire to be with Shepard. There's a whole lot that could be done with that, but the game really doesn't delve into it, which is very unfortunate.
It seems odd to leave the conversation where it ends. "No, I don't hate you. Ok, gotta go." There's a lot of interesting emotional ground to cover there, and it's a shame they didn't do so.

It's a huge misstep - the games writing is so great except for where the ME1 LIs are concerned. I really wonder how they messed that part up so badly when everything else works so well.

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 03 février 2010 - 09:09 .

[Wakara Pezi]

Yes, I want Liara as a squadmate in M3!

[Nozybidaj]

ratzerman wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

While I can appreciate your interpretation of the events, and may even agree with them, the presentation of it in game was horrible.  There still needed to be more to it as well, some sort of "i'll be back for you" from Shepard to show he wasn't completely apathetic about the whole thing..

I won't call the presentation "horrible," but I agree that there needed to be more.  The lack of any romantic dialogue from Shepard really shocked me.  Not giving us the oppurtunity to express how our Sheps felt about Liara was wrong, and hung over the whole scene.  I kept waiting for "I still love you" to show up on the dialogue wheel.  

I get that Bioware wanted to insert conflict into the romance storylines.  I understand that Casey Hudson intended ME2 to be a "troubled" time for the love interests.  But it just seems cruel not to let us, at the very least, re-affirm Shepard's love for Liara. 

That's the whole thing, how can it be a troubled time for the LI's when you can't even acknowledge they actually ARE LI's.  The whole scene just feels like an after thought that got tacked on.

[Driveninhifi]

If you are on PC, take a look in the 'CookedPC' folder. Do a little search for Liara's name.....

If this doesn't involve taking down the Shadow Broker together, I'll be very disappointed. And I don't see how the relationship doesn't come up if you continue working with her.....

[ratzerman]

Driveninhifi wrote...

It's a huge misstep - the games writing is so great except for where the ME1 LIs are concerned. I really wonder how they messed that part up so badly when everything else works so well.

I wonder about that too.  In my weaker moments, I see it as a Bioware conspiracy to drive us away from the original love interests so that they don't have to worry about them in ME3.  They can write them out of the story, and use "We listened to the fans" as an excuse.

But then I realize that Bioware probably isn't that evil.  Then I'm back to wondering again.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Well, yeah, gotta add my support, since its the primary decider in whether or not I actually buy the game.

I see no reason to purchase it if its not. My main ME2 playthrough was missing something with the character relegated to a piddling side role. Another like that in ME3 just means the game doesnt interest me in the slightest.

No squadmate, no buy.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 03 février 2010 - 09:27 .