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[Nozybidaj]

Deamon023 wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Speaking of, since we know now that Asari in some way psychicly influence others around them, to alter their perception of what the Asari look like, what do you all think that Liara looks like for real?

I know that one!

Blue? 

I think even prettier (if that's possible)

Yeah.  Though I don't think that conversation was meant to be taken as real or cannon.  It was a joke.  More like an example of galactic beer goggles.  I would assume Asari look exactly as they are depicted.  If you remember outside Chora's Den there is a sign with the image of an Asari on it and her profile is exactly as you seem them in game.

[DigitalMaster37]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...


/end Talimob bashing

Agreed.  Back on topic.  I still think, even if we give that the Liara as presented in ME2 is acceptable, that they need to do something prior to ME3 for all the ME1 LI's.  Otherwise ME1 LI's are being penalized unfairly by not having a continuing romance in the second chapter.

ME2 LI's would get a very natural progression into ME3 while folks who want to keep their ME1 LI's now need to spend time trying to repair and jumpstart their relationships.  A big expansion to include Liara and something for the other LI's as well is really needed to make sure all the relationships are on equal footing before jumping into ME3.

My biggest concern for ME3 at this point is that I'll have to spend the whole damn thing just trying to get back to where I was at the end of ME1.  That would be a terrible injustice to the ME1 fans.

I somewhat disagree with you. After thinking rather long about this, I have come to a personal conclusion:

Liara as DLC would be great, but her presence in ME3 will be more satisfying for me. I don't agree with you that we will have to work harder as far as the transition of our romance with her from ME2. If anything, what we will get will be substantially better than the ME2 romances because we have more of a realistic situation going on. No relationship is worth anything if it hasn;t been tested against hard times IMO. So what we'll get is something better in that we'll have to navigate through what happened in ME2 and build upon that, which beats that so-called smooth transition of the ME2 LIs to ME3.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nozybidaj wrote...

ratzerman wrote...

Is this old news? Sorry if it is. It's nice to have some real-world evidence of Liara's popularity. I just hope the comic's success means a return to the squad for Liara in ME3, not just more comic books.

Was posted in the devs dropped the ball thread I think, or it might have been the dlc thread. But yeah I've seen it.  Just a PR interview really, he even mentions how well her new attitude has been received, lol.  They obviously aren't gauging fan reactions.   But yes, it is good to see that the comic is selling well, hopefully that encourages BW to go all out with a Liara expansion.

I have to say, I've read 2 issues of the comic (is that all that are out?) I'm really not impressed. I mean, obviously I'm not Liara's biggest fan, but her comic book writing seems really... eh... inconsistent? I mean, they're trying to make her grow too fast. I can get her being cold and distant in ME2 two years after ME1, but that comic is supposed to take place -right- after ME1.

Plus that comic's art is bad. Like really bad. It hurts my eyes to look at. And the story is just plain uninteresting for the most part. Too actiony, not enough depth.

Eh, but I guess if it gets more popularity for the character (and more importantly the game/setting in general), then I suppose it's all for good.

[Arcadionn]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Arcadionn wrote...

Liara in ME2 is good imo...

I think what is there of Liara is passable and plausible, though her complete obsession with the SB isn't exactly endearing.  If she had shown how this obsession is hard for her it would be one thing, but she seems to revel in her hate for the SB. 

It is what is not there that ruined the whole thing.  

I'm still dreading what the comic is going to reveal, there is too much hate and angst there for all of it to simply be because of him trying to sell Shepard's body.  If that is what was driving her a lot of that anger and resentment should have washed away seeing Shepard again.  The fact that hunting down the SB and getting revenge for what he did to her "friend" is more important to her than seeing Shep again after two years has terrible implications for how I am going to react to whatever is left to reveal in the comics.

To be frank, I have a calm and cool demeanor, I rarely get angry and react calmly to pressure (which is great when you work in management) but if one of my closests friends and/or loved ones were to be threatened by a person to that level (insert Liara and her Drell friend and Shepard's body being on the way to be sold to the colectors) , I would also put vengeance in my priorities.. .and sometimes I would be blinded by it (I don't kill people, there are other ways to accomplish that haha)

I understand how she acts, and what she wants to accomplish.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Yeah.  Though I don't think that conversation was meant to be taken as real or cannon.  It was a joke.  More like an example of galactic beer goggles.  I would assume Asari look exactly as they are depicted.  If you remember outside Chora's Den there is a sign with the image of an Asari on it and her profile is exactly as you seem them in game.

While I do agree that the Asari bartender thing was an easter egg of sorts, I actually do think the Asari are psychic manipulators. It's probably not even conscious, like a pheremone that they just give off unconsciously like our sweat glands do that alters the perception of races to find them more attractive (and physically analogous). Quite frankly, that was one of my favorite developments of the Asari in ME2.

[Nozybidaj]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...


/end Talimob bashing

Agreed.  Back on topic.  I still think, even if we give that the Liara as presented in ME2 is acceptable, that they need to do something prior to ME3 for all the ME1 LI's.  Otherwise ME1 LI's are being penalized unfairly by not having a continuing romance in the second chapter.

ME2 LI's would get a very natural progression into ME3 while folks who want to keep their ME1 LI's now need to spend time trying to repair and jumpstart their relationships.  A big expansion to include Liara and something for the other LI's as well is really needed to make sure all the relationships are on equal footing before jumping into ME3.

My biggest concern for ME3 at this point is that I'll have to spend the whole damn thing just trying to get back to where I was at the end of ME1.  That would be a terrible injustice to the ME1 fans.

I somewhat disagree with you. After thinking rather long about this, I have come to a personal conclusion:

Liara as DLC would be great, but her presence in ME3 will be more satisfying for me. I don't agree with you that we will have to work harder as far as the transition of our romance with her from ME2. If anything, what we will get will be substantially better than the ME2 romances because we have more of a realistic situation going on. No relationship is worth anything if it hasn;t been tested against hard times IMO. So what we'll get is something better in that we'll have to navigate through what happened in ME2 and build upon that, which beats that so-called smooth transition of the ME2 LIs to ME3.

Sorry, I just disagree.  Think of how all the romances are formatted and think of how that is going to effect ME3.  They aren't going to have separate formats for the characters based on which game they are coming from and tons of extra content just because the LI is from ME1.  I really think that if the romances aren't evened out prior to ME3 the ME1 LI's are going to get fairly well shafted.  No we won't work "harder"  we'll just be starting at a point farther back the line.

The ME2 LI's will be able to come into the game already all "lovey" while the ME1 LI's are going to come into the game as basically strangers after having seen nothing of each other for over 2 years not to mention all the baggage they will have to get through before even starting a romance again.

If we are going to get 4-6 converstations with them that are meant to build up the romance, I don't want 3-5 of them to be about how bad we feel about the last two years and if we should try again.  I would feel exceptionally short changed.  That should all be handled prior to ME3.

[WilliamShatner]

speedy111280 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...


Casey Hudson also said that despite not being crew members they LI would still have big roles in ME2. 

Liara and my Shepard would be delighted to see each other after two years.  Heck the minute she hears Liara is working on Illium that would be her first stop.

The lack of any joy in their reunion is a huge, colossal mistake that goes against what we know about these characters and their relationship and is also dramatically dead in the water.

The scene could have played out that the moment Liara sees Shepard all her problems would disappear and she would be happy again, and then when we start asking her what she has been doing for the past two year then her "darker" side would surface.  We see the Liara we know and love from the original game and then we see her develop into something different in front of our faces.  More realistic, more dramatic and overall better.

I saw joy from Liara when Shep walked into her office, though it was short lived. And I would have to heartily disagree about your version of how the reunion could have played out because it would be doing Liara a great disservice.  Her problems aren't going to disappear just because Shep walks back in her door. She's had a life of her own for the last two years with its problems. They won't go away, even temporarily, because she is seeing Shep again. That's a huge cliche for female LI's that I'm actually rather tired of seeing in sci-fi/fantasy. It cheapens the characters and the romance and I'm very glad Bioware didn't do that. Liara is capable of handling herself, she isn't a damsel in distress in need of a big, strong hero to make her troubles go away. The reunions with the ME1 LI's make Liara and Ash/Kaidan their own people outside of their connection to Shepard, that their life doesn't revolve around Shepard. It makes them much better characters in the long run and makes the romance more meaningful.

I disagree (of course:))  Liara's problems would go away at least temporarily. This is the moment she had dedicated a significant portion of her life since Shepard "died" to get.  Ash and Kaidan might have moved on but Liara hasn't.  That moment should be a big reunion.  Maybe I'm a sucker for romantic cliche but I'll take a cliche that stirs my emotions and makes sense over something that is completely anti-climatic and doesn't.  

To give you a real world example, have you been in a hospital and completely down in the dumps and then had a love one visit you?  You completely forget about your problems.  This isn't weakness or a sign of female character writing cliche, it's human nature.  I'd fully expect the "deep emotional connection" Liara shares with Shepard to take precedent over anything going on in her life at that immediate moment.  And this isn't a gender thing, it's about the characters and their relationship. If Liara's character was male I would expect the same reaction.  

And again I'd much rather see a character evolve on the screen in front of me than off screen.  You go through the emotions with those characters.  The highs and lows and the conflict and constast between them.  That's good drama.  From the outset Liara's scene is just the lows. 

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 16 février 2010 - 04:11 .

[jlb524]

I heard there's some trolling going on...do I have to get my club out and smash it over the head?

[Nozybidaj]

WilliamShatner wrote...

I disagree (of course:))  Liara's problems would go away at least temporarily. This is the moment she had dedicated a significant portion of her life since Shepard "died" to get.  Ash and Kaidan might have moved on but Liara hasn't.  That moment should be a big reunion.  Maybe I'm a sucker for romantic cliche but I'll take a cliche that stirs my emotions and makes sense over something that is completely anti-climatic and doesn't.  

To give you a real world example, have you been in a hospital and completely down in the dumps and then had a love one visit you?  You completely forget about your problems.  This isn't weakness or a sign of female character writing cliche, it's human nature.  I'd fully expect the "deep emotional connection" Liara shares with Shepard to take precedent over anything going on in her life at that immediate moment.  And this isn't a gender thing, it's about the characters and their relationship. If Liara's character was male I would expect the same reaction.  

And again I'd much rather see a character evolve on the screen in front of me than off screen.  You go through the emotions with those characters.  The highs and lows and the conflict and constast between them.  That's good drama.  From the outset Liara's scene is just the lows. 

This.  All of it.  Thank you.

[WilliamShatner]

Littledoom wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I have to say, I've read 2 issues of the comic (is that all that are out?) I'm really not impressed. I mean, obviously I'm not Liara's biggest fan, but her comic book writing seems really... eh... inconsistent? I mean, they're trying to make her grow too fast. I can get her being cold and distant in ME2 two years after ME1, but that comic is supposed to take place -right- after ME1.

Plus that comic's art is bad. Like really bad. It hurts my eyes to look at. And the story is just plain uninteresting for the most part. Too actiony, not enough depth.

Eh, but I guess if it gets more popularity for the character (and more importantly the game/setting in general), then I suppose it's all for good.

I have to agree with you on this and I have only read the first issue so far. May become painful reading 3 more issues especially with that dam lizard drooling on my blue goddess

You could replace Liara with Arnold Schwarzenegger in the comic and it wouldn't make a damn difference (apart from the sleazy chat-up lines Liara has to endure <_<).

[SurfaceBeneath]

jlb524 wrote...

I heard there's some trolling going on...do I have to get my club out and smash it over the head?

No sir! Just talking about how Liara should come back as a squadmate in ME3

[DigitalMaster37]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...


/end Talimob bashing

Agreed.  Back on topic.  I still think, even if we give that the Liara as presented in ME2 is acceptable, that they need to do something prior to ME3 for all the ME1 LI's.  Otherwise ME1 LI's are being penalized unfairly by not having a continuing romance in the second chapter.

ME2 LI's would get a very natural progression into ME3 while folks who want to keep their ME1 LI's now need to spend time trying to repair and jumpstart their relationships.  A big expansion to include Liara and something for the other LI's as well is really needed to make sure all the relationships are on equal footing before jumping into ME3.

My biggest concern for ME3 at this point is that I'll have to spend the whole damn thing just trying to get back to where I was at the end of ME1.  That would be a terrible injustice to the ME1 fans.

I somewhat disagree with you. After thinking rather long about this, I have come to a personal conclusion:

Liara as DLC would be great, but her presence in ME3 will be more satisfying for me. I don't agree with you that we will have to work harder as far as the transition of our romance with her from ME2. If anything, what we will get will be substantially better than the ME2 romances because we have more of a realistic situation going on. No relationship is worth anything if it hasn;t been tested against hard times IMO. So what we'll get is something better in that we'll have to navigate through what happened in ME2 and build upon that, which beats that so-called smooth transition of the ME2 LIs to ME3.

Sorry, I just disagree.  Think of how all the romances are formatted and think of how that is going to effect ME3.  They aren't going to have separate formats for the characters based on which game they are coming from and tons of extra content just because the LI is from ME1.  I really think that if the romances aren't evened out prior to ME3 the ME1 LI's are going to get fairly well shafted.  No we won't work "harder"  we'll just be starting at a point farther back the line.

Well we'll agree to disagree because this shows that you have a lack of confidence in BioWare to write an excellent story and IMO, with the ME1 LIs there is so much more potential than all of the ME2 romances combined. IMO we do have much more opportunity to build on top of what we started in ME1, gone through in ME2 right into ME3 with much more potential than any romance in ME2.

The ME2 LI's will be able to come into the game already all "lovey" while the ME1 LI's are going to come into the game as basically strangers after having seen nothing of each other for over 2 years not to mention all the baggage they will have to get through before even starting a romance again.

You lost me with the "lovely" and IMO it will just be stale compared to any ME1 "event" and "angst" filled romances. You have to admit there is something to be said about making up or getting back together or to a point in a relationship that brings about a fresh appreciation for each person involved. No ME2 relationship will have this, but the ME1 LIs have plenty potential for this.

If we are going to get 4-6 converstations with them that are meant to build up the romance, I don't want 3-5 of them to be about how bad we feel about the last two years and if we should try again.  I would feel exceptionally short changed.  That should all be handled prior to ME3.

You are assuming how many conversations we'll be getting and I can almost gaurantee if BioWare will include the ME1 LIs in ME3 back to full squad status, and if they decide to go all out on the romance, then I'm sure there will be substantial interaction. This is the last game in this trilogy, BioWare has to go out with a bang on this one, don't forget that. we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[SurfaceBeneath]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Littledoom wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I have to say, I've read 2 issues of the comic (is that all that are out?) I'm really not impressed. I mean, obviously I'm not Liara's biggest fan, but her comic book writing seems really... eh... inconsistent? I mean, they're trying to make her grow too fast. I can get her being cold and distant in ME2 two years after ME1, but that comic is supposed to take place -right- after ME1.

Plus that comic's art is bad. Like really bad. It hurts my eyes to look at. And the story is just plain uninteresting for the most part. Too actiony, not enough depth.

Eh, but I guess if it gets more popularity for the character (and more importantly the game/setting in general), then I suppose it's all for good.

I have to agree with you on this and I have only read the first issue so far. May become painful reading 3 more issues especially with that dam lizard drooling on my blue goddess

You could replace Liara with Arnold Schwarzenegger in the comic and it wouldn't make a damn difference (apart from the sleazy chat-up lines Liara has to endure <_<).

That's being unfair.

At least Arnold had some good One Liners

[jlb524]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I heard there's some trolling going on...do I have to get my club out and smash it over the head?

No sir! Just talking about how Liara should come back as a squadmate in ME3

You need the Liara sig bar then... if you want to really show support.  I'll give you the link if you'd like.

[Nozybidaj]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...
You lost me with the "lovely" and IMO it will just be stale compared to any ME1 "event" and "angst" filled romances. You have to admit there is something to be said about making up or getting back together or to a point in a relationship that brings about a fresh appreciation for each person involved. No ME2 relationship will have this, but the ME1 LIs have plenty potential for this.

If there had been an angst filled relationship in ME2 I would completely agree with you.  Instead there was complete separation.  Getting back together is always a very emotional moment, that is why I was so disappointed to see it glossed over in ME2.

You are assuming how many conversations we'll be getting and I can almost gaurantee if BioWare will include the ME1 LIs in ME3 back to full squad status, and if they decide to go all out on the romance, then I'm sure there will be substantial interaction. This is the last game in this trilogy, BioWare has to go out with a bang on this one, don't forget that. we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't think there will be much more than that.  BW has a pretty set format at this point for how ME dialogue and character interactions and relationships work, I don't see them changing that.  To expect we will get the kind of depth and quantity of interaction we saw in DA:O or better at this point is being overly optimistic to the point of not seeing what the last two games have done.  Unless Hudson comes out here and says "expect twice the amount of character interaction and content that you saw in ME2" I see no reason to think otherwise.

If we come back in ME3 and everything is just "right with the world" again after a brief couple of line reunion it will feel like the events that led us to ME3 had no impact on them. 

Liara: Hey Shep
Shep: Hey Liara
Liara: Sorry 'bout dumping you
Shep; It's okay I was dead and all
Liara: All good?
Shep: All good.

If I have to spend ME3 trying to repair all that happened in ME2 and end up at the same place I was in ME1 it will also be disappointing.  There wil have been no progression of the story for them.

BW sent us down this road, right or wrong, and I would like them to make something of it.  Not have it glossed over or have it actually end up making the romance less satisfying overall.  To do that I think is too tall an order to cover all of it in ME3.

[SurfaceBeneath]

justinnstuff wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I heard there's some trolling going on...do I have to get my club out and smash it over the head?

No sir! Just talking about how Liara should come back as a squadmate in ME3

You need the Liara sig bar then... if you want to really show support.  I'll give you the link if you'd like.

Exactly. There are plenty to choose from. The one I have right now is self created but far from complete. I will tend to getting it more fleshed out when I get some spare time. Right now work has me by the balls. Make sure your sig bar also links to the fanclub. 

Haha, no that's ok. As much as I want to support you guys, Liara will not be breaking my signiture virginity . I'm in this thread to support Liara's inclusion in to ME3 and to try and make this a more positive place for discussion.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Deamon023 wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Speaking of, since we know now that Asari in some way psychicly influence others around them, to alter their perception of what the Asari look like, what do you all think that Liara looks like for real?

I know that one!

Blue? 

I think even prettier (if that's possible)

Yeah.  Though I don't think that conversation was meant to be taken as real or cannon.  It was a joke.  More like an example of galactic beer goggles.  I would assume Asari look exactly as they are depicted.  If you remember outside Chora's Den there is a sign with the image of an Asari on it and her profile is exactly as you seem them in game.

I think it has to be beer goggles.  If it was actual mental manipulation and the Asari look completely different from the way we see them (and the way other aliens see them) then there would be way too many plot holes.

But for the sake of argument, let's say they do look completely different from the way we see them, and they do have a mental manipulation that makes them look like a blue and slightly different version of the race that is looking at them.  Let's even say that the effect is permanent once you see an Asari in person, so even if you see a digital picture/holo of an Asari in the future, you don't see what the imager literally captured, you see what your altered brain tells you it should look like.

How then, is it possible that people who have never been in the same room with an Asari, but have seen pictures/holos of them, see them as looking like their race, and not what they truly appear to be?  There's no way that it could be an extranet-wide 'virus' that alters any image of an Asari.  It's impossible to hit the non-networked systems. 

How is it that AIs never point it out?  Their synthetic construction would make them immune.  Maybe the literal-minded dumb VIs wouldn't, but there are actual AIs or at least very very sophisticated VIs running around (the Geth, VIGIL, EDI, Legion, etc.).

So I think it has to be a case of galactic beer goggles* or if the mental manipulation is true, then BioWare made a very serious oversight.

*(Speaking of which, the background chatter from random people in Afterlife is hilarous.  "Hey, is it just me or are you getting more attractive?")

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

While I do agree that the Asari
bartender thing was an easter egg of sorts, I actually do think the
Asari are psychic manipulators. It's probably not even conscious, like
a pheremone that they just give off unconsciously like our sweat glands
do that alters the perception of races to find them more attractive
(and physically analogous). Quite frankly, that was one of my favorite
developments of the Asari in ME2.

Bingo.  I was actually thinking it would be a passive thing if they did it (I even specifically thought pheromones before reading your post ), but I don't think it could be as all-inclusive as making them appear entirely different from what they look like for the reasons I mentioned above.

I think that they could still have a passive ability that makes other species view them more favorably though, and might make them appear more attractive (especially when combined with booze ), but I don't think it could be as strong as making them look Human to Humans, Salarian to Salarians, Turian to Turians, etc..  That would be the booze talking.   Not to mention that the Krogan still say they're squishy and they don't say they look like Krogans.

[bjdbwea]

Nozybidaj wrote...

But yeah I've seen it.  Just a PR interview really, he even mentions how well her new attitude has been received, lol.  They obviously aren't gauging fan reactions.

See, that's exactly it. The comics sold well = we did everything right. The game sold well = we did everything right. If you look at it objectively, the reasoning is sound. Now, some developers just like some movie directors do want more, strive to do better, to create art on top of creating a product. BioWare used to be one of the few, and one of the few who survived. It's yet too early to say this has totally changed, but the recent signs aren't exactly encouraging. But no lamenting on the forums will change a thing.

[Nozybidaj]

justinnstuff wrote...

I guess you're right, after I started working on my sig it's like working on the house. You always find some sort of improvement and it's never done. I guess I got my freetime cut out for me. Anywho, thanks for the support. Bumping the thread is always appreciated.

I always liked yours too.  I totally stole it.