2439 réponses à ce sujet

[Marcin K]

as i said maybe in this thread maybe in other i can't remeber....

Liara thread in ME2 may see abandoned but this is a "dark" part of ME

as for ME3

as Liara is the only 100% survive character of all and only she goes after ressurection of Shepard [see comics, dialogue on Ilium] i think there's gona be some big plot action/romance around her in ME3...

[SurfaceBeneath]

justinnstuff wrote...
I guess you're right, after I started working on my sig it's like working on the house. You always find some sort of improvement and it's never done. I guess I got my freetime cut out for me. Anywho, thanks for the support. Bumping the thread is always appreciated.

Agreed, I am never done with a sig when I start one. And if you're unhappy with it you can never just let it go either... it just stares you in the face every time you post, taunting you.

[speedy111280]

WilliamShatner wrote...

I disagree (of course:))  Liara's problems would go away at least temporarily. This is the moment she had dedicated a significant portion of her life since Shepard "died" to get.  Ash and Kaidan might have moved on but Liara hasn't.  That moment should be a big reunion.  Maybe I'm a sucker for romantic cliche but I'll take a cliche that stirs my emotions and makes sense over something that is completely anti-climatic and doesn't.  

To give you a real world example, have you been in a hospital and completely down in the dumps and then had a love one visit you?  You completely forget about your problems.  This isn't weakness or a sign of female character writing cliche, it's human nature.  I'd fully expect the "deep emotional connection" Liara shares with Shepard to take precedent over anything going on in her life at that immediate moment.  And this isn't a gender thing, it's about the characters and their relationship. If Liara's character was male I would expect the same reaction.  

And again I'd much rather see a character evolve on the screen in front of me than off screen.  You go through the emotions with those characters.  The highs and lows and the conflict and constast between them.  That's good drama.  From the outset Liara's scene is just the lows. 

We'll have to disagree because I still think the making her problems go away is terribly cliche and unrealistic. I've never had the appearance of someone I love make my troubles go away, even for a little bit, in fact in the cases where you might expect it to it's only made it worse. Liara isn't down in the dumps and she's not in the hospital she's beating herself up over the things she's done and punishing herself for her guilt. Seeing Shepard under those circumstances would in most cases only make it worse because she's worried Shep is going to hate her. That's why I see it as unrealistic and it would be cliche.

I'm not saying Liara shouldn't have had more to say or do or even more emotional development in ME2, although I still think the fault is because Shepard has no emotional reaction at all, I just don't think your suggestion would be realistic for what she's gone through and would be terribly cliche (though it wouldn't be quite as cliche as the entire Twilight series).

[Nozybidaj]

speedy111280 wrote...

I'm not saying Liara shouldn't have had more to say or do or even more emotional development in ME2, although I still think the fault is because Shepard has no emotional reaction at all, I just don't think your suggestion would be realistic for what she's gone through and would be terribly cliche (though it wouldn't be quite as cliche as the entire Twilight series).

You don't think she would be even a little relieved and excited seeing him again?  You don't think him telling her "it's alright" wouldn't have the slightest impact on her?

While I can agree that it wouldn't "wash away" everything it should have had quite a profound impact on her.  I agree that Shepard having zero feelings about it is the bigger issue, but that should have been a lot of weight of her shoulders.  

Unless of course her reasons for hunting the Shadow Broker are different from what we are currently speculating on, but if that is the case exactly what are her reasons?  That is just as troubling for a Shep that romanced her.

[speedy111280]

Nozybidaj wrote...

speedy111280 wrote...

I'm not saying Liara shouldn't have had more to say or do or even more emotional development in ME2, although I still think the fault is because Shepard has no emotional reaction at all, I just don't think your suggestion would be realistic for what she's gone through and would be terribly cliche (though it wouldn't be quite as cliche as the entire Twilight series).

You don't think she would be even a little relieved and excited seeing him again?  You don't think him telling her "it's alright" wouldn't have the slightest impact on her?

While I can agree that it wouldn't "wash away" everything it should have had quite a profound impact on her.  I agree that Shepard having zero feelings about it is the bigger issue, but that should have been a lot of weight of her shoulders.  

Unless of course her reasons for hunting the Shadow Broker are different from what we are currently speculating on, but if that is the case exactly what are her reasons?  That is just as troubling for a Shep that romanced her.

No I don't think it would have had a larger impact than it did because emotions are irrational and aren't simply overriden by logic and rationality, especially guilt. Shepard can't make Liara's emotions over the whole thing go away. From the outside you would think it would take a great weight off Liara's shoulders because Shepard says it's alright, but emotions don't work like that. It takes time to get over guilty feelings, but there is not immediate relief of those feelings from someone agreeing with you. Guilt in some ways is more powerful than any other emotion associated with the death of a loved one because it can cause you to completely change your life and how you interact with others. I agree that Shepard's response to the situation will affect Liara in some way, I just don't think it would be immediate, but instead would come from repeated assurances or in Liara's case maybe a time or two of "embracing eternity" with Shepard for her to emotionally believe what Shepard says and start forgiving herself because she needs to forgive herself more than anything.

Modifié par speedy111280, 16 février 2010 - 07:01 .

[Malastrail]

/signed



4 playthroughs and never once strayed from Liara. My Shep wants her back, dammit!

[Marcin K]

Malastrail wrote...

/signed

4 playthroughs and never once strayed from Liara. My Shep wants her back, dammit!

i totally sign under this statement

[Driveninhifi]

speedy111280 wrote...
No I don't think it would have had a larger impact than it did because emotions are irrational and aren't simply overriden by logic and rationality, especially guilt. Shepard can't make Liara's emotions over the whole thing go away. From the outside you would think it would take a great weight off Liara's shoulders because Shepard says it's alright, but emotions don't work like that. It takes time to get over guilty feelings, but there is not immediate relief of those feelings from someone agreeing with you. Guilt in some ways is more powerful than any other emotion associated with the death of a loved one because it can cause you to completely change your life and how you interact with others. I agree that Shepard's response to the situation will affect Liara in some way, I just don't think it would be immediate, but instead would come from repeated assurances or in Liara's case maybe a time or two of "embracing eternity" with Shepard for her to emotionally believe what Shepard says and start forgiving herself because she needs to forgive herself more than anything.

I agree that guilt doesn't immediately go away - and that she probably wouldn't be able to let go of her guilt over Shep and Feron and jump into Shep's arms and join the Normandy.
But I would think that Shepard telling Liara she did the right thing would be incredibly cathartic. She has to have been thinking about their reunion, building it up in her head, being terrified (even expecting) Shepard to hate her and just turn around and leave forever.
To have that conversation go well needs to be an huge moment for her; it shouldn't immediately "snap her out of it," but it needs to create an incredible amount of emotion. Hope (that she can recover her life), doubt (over her chosen path), love all need to be there and the game really suffers since you can't ask her or talk to her about it. The potential here is vast and the game doesn't go into it. To make matters worse, the game doesn't let Shepard reaffirm his/her feelings or comfort his/her love interest.
The internal conflict is really interesting. Here she has the person she loves come back from the dead. She's afraid Shepard will hate her, but it turns out she's been afraid for no reason. All this guilt, and it really was that easy? Does she dare hope they can be together again? Can she live with leaving her pursuit and have Feron's death on her conscience? The last time she was selfish (recovering the body), she got people killed. Is returning to Shepard selfish? Is she hunting the Shadow Broker for a good reason, or for selfish ones? 
It seems like, as a writer, you would WANT to write that conflict. It's compelling stuff and I have no idea why they didn't include it.

[speedy111280]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I agree that guilt doesn't immediately go away - and that she probably wouldn't be able to let go of her guilt over Shep and Feron and jump into Shep's arms and join the Normandy.
But I would think that Shepard telling Liara she did the right thing would be incredibly cathartic. She has to have been thinking about their reunion, building it up in her head, being terrified (even expecting) Shepard to hate her and just turn around and leave forever.
To have that conversation go well needs to be an huge moment for her; it shouldn't immediately "snap her out of it," but it needs to create an incredible amount of emotion. Hope (that she can recover her life), doubt (over her chosen path), love all need to be there and the game really suffers since you can't ask her or talk to her about it. The potential here is vast and the game doesn't go into it. To make matters worse, the game doesn't let Shepard reaffirm his/her feelings or comfort his/her love interest.
The internal conflict is really interesting. Here she has the person she loves come back from the dead. She's afraid Shepard will hate her, but it turns out she's been afraid for no reason. All this guilt, and it really was that easy? Does she dare hope they can be together again? Can she live with leaving her pursuit and have Feron's death on her conscience? The last time she was selfish (recovering the body), she got people killed. Is returning to Shepard selfish? Is she hunting the Shadow Broker for a good reason, or for selfish ones? 
It seems like, as a writer, you would WANT to write that conflict. It's compelling stuff and I have no idea why they didn't include it.

I agree that it would have been a cathartic experience for Liara to have Shep to say it was okay. She'd be able to start forgiving herself and working through some of her guilt.

I think the largest problem with all the LI's is how unemotional Shep is. They didn't even have to give Liara much more to say but Shepard needed to be able to say a lot more. I'm hoping that they will give us this once the comic is finished, because like you said the internal conflict is very interesting in the Liara/Shepard dynamic, romance or no romance. In fact I think it's probably the most compelling connection between two characters in the entire game and they went nowhere with it. That's where I think they dropped the ball. Not with the actual writing of Liara as a character but that they completely dropped such a compelling storyline and made Shepard so unemotional. I don't think they will leave us hanging on this because I think its very tied into the completion of the comic, but that's my optimistic outlook on things shining through. I just don't want to it be cheesy or cliche when they do handle it because there is so much potential there.

[Sharn01]

In regards to what Asari look like, they look like what you see in the game, there is no way for them to cover that up in a world with photo's, VI's that imitate their appearance, medicine and surgery that needs to be performed on them by non-asari, etc, a lot of this was already pointed out so I will no rehash all of it, the point's mentioned are enough.

However, I do think that asari, even subconsciously perhaps, do manipulate other races to find them attractive, and the drunk bachelor party at the bar show's how people who find something attractive will look for similarities between themselves and the object of their desire.

When you talk to Aria for instance, she hints that she used trait's that her people like to downplay in order to secure her role as the leader of Omega, tearing down Patriarch's follower's and getting them to join her. If I guessed, asari probably consider it a taboo to use these abilities, but Aria does not seem like the type to care.

Modifié par Sharn01, 16 février 2010 - 08:32 .

[Driveninhifi]

Yeah, I agree completely. I really do feel the Liara/Shepard relationship is the most interesting one in the game. The problem with tying it to the completion of the comic is that doesn't make sense from a storytelling perspective. Whatever happens in the comic is irrelevant to what Shepard does in that situation - all Shepard really needs to know is that this friend/love has put herself through hell, primarily out of grief and guilt for him/her. That's a very powerful thing, even if they were not lovers. To walk away without a word after being told that is incredibly unnatural (especially if these are two people that ostensibly love each other). Sure, there should be an option for Shepard to be a total jerk (thanks for the resurrection, see ya!). But there also needs to be an option to comfort/console Liara and talk to her about what she said and what she feels.



I understand they wanted to create the "cheating!" drama - but it hits a real false note to do so by limiting what the player can say/do.

[Nozybidaj]

speedy111280 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

speedy111280 wrote...

I'm not saying Liara shouldn't have had more to say or do or even more emotional development in ME2, although I still think the fault is because Shepard has no emotional reaction at all, I just don't think your suggestion would be realistic for what she's gone through and would be terribly cliche (though it wouldn't be quite as cliche as the entire Twilight series).

You don't think she would be even a little relieved and excited seeing him again?  You don't think him telling her "it's alright" wouldn't have the slightest impact on her?

While I can agree that it wouldn't "wash away" everything it should have had quite a profound impact on her.  I agree that Shepard having zero feelings about it is the bigger issue, but that should have been a lot of weight of her shoulders.  

Unless of course her reasons for hunting the Shadow Broker are different from what we are currently speculating on, but if that is the case exactly what are her reasons?  That is just as troubling for a Shep that romanced her.

No I don't think it would have had a larger impact than it did because emotions are irrational and aren't simply overriden by logic and rationality, especially guilt. Shepard can't make Liara's emotions over the whole thing go away. From the outside you would think it would take a great weight off Liara's shoulders because Shepard says it's alright, but emotions don't work like that. It takes time to get over guilty feelings, but there is not immediate relief of those feelings from someone agreeing with you. Guilt in some ways is more powerful than any other emotion associated with the death of a loved one because it can cause you to completely change your life and how you interact with others. I agree that Shepard's response to the situation will affect Liara in some way, I just don't think it would be immediate, but instead would come from repeated assurances or in Liara's case maybe a time or two of "embracing eternity" with Shepard for her to emotionally believe what Shepard says and start forgiving herself because she needs to forgive herself more than anything.

Well fine then.  I can't see how she would be completely unmoved by seeing Shepard again.  I was under the assumption she cared about him, but if we are working under the assumption that he meant so little to her that her grief and revenge completely overpower her feeling for him then I can see why we are disagreeing.  I am ready to agree to disagree.

[speedy111280]

Nozybidaj wrote...


Well fine then.  I can't see how she would be completely unmoved by seeing Shepard again.  I was under the assumption she cared about him, but if we are working under the assumption that he meant so little to her that her grief and revenge completely overpower her feeling for him then I can see why we are disagreeing.  I am ready to agree to disagree.

I in no way said she would be completely unmoved, I said that emotions aren't rational and seeing Shepard is not going to immediately allieviate all of her guilt or grief because it doesn't just involve Shepard. Her problem is that she hasn't forgiven herself. Liara feels responsible for Shepard being dead in the first place, she feels guilty for being selfish and turning Shepard's body over to Cerberus and she feels guilty because she got Feron killed/captured. She's obviously not unmoved because the happiness in her voice at seeing Shepard overpowered her cold facade for a moment. The hug/kiss is proof of that, but it doesn't override her guilt for the duration of Shepard's visit. Liara is getting outwardly emotional for what is probably the first time in a long time since she turned Shep's body over to Cerberus, she's just not going to work through those feelings in that short time. That's not to say that I don't think it could have played out differently if they had given Shepard more to say. But they made Shep an emotional cripple where the ME1 LI's were concerned and failed to even let us try to comfort Liara. I think it could have helped Liara a lot if Shep could comfort her and talk to her more but they literally gave us nothing more to say to her after you finish the anger at the SB conversation, even just a few more minutes of dialogue would have made a huge difference.

[Nozybidaj]

General Stubbs wrote...
...  A big reason for me buying ME2 was to see what happened to the galaxy (mostly what happened to Liara). ...

In my opinion, the only way BioWare can redeem themselves for lying to us about Liara is to put out the Liara DLC that should include everything and more that they missed in the ME2 reunion.

I agree, the Liara reunion scene had amazing potential to be one of the best emotional reunions I have ever seen and the writers let it slip through their grasp.

...

BioWare has either been too focused on appealing to people who did not play ME1 or they were to concerned with creating their entirely new crew for the suicide mission that they obsessed about so much.
...

I am hoping that someone at BioWare seriously cares about Liara as much as we do and will make sure we get the appropriate continuation of the romance that should have been in ME2 via DLC. Also, I hope that someone makes sure she has a major part in ME3, (hopefully as a squadmate) and we can have the conclusion of the Liara romance that greatly surpasses our expectations.

To actually achieve the Liara romance that we all want, there is no other way but for BioWare to make it up through DLC. As the DLC would fill in all of the holes in the reunion and easily allow BioWare themselves to have Liara as a squadmate and a very important character in ME3.

If they do not put out Liara DLC, I would have an extremely bad feeling about ME3 having an emotional continuation of the Liara romance. (Unless it ME3 is going to be 80+ hours, they just left too much information out of ME2 to even think about doing a good job continuing the romance into ME3).
The only option I can see for BioWare is Liara DLC.

Sorry for the snips but I wanted to highlight these parts as I feel the same way.  I do hope someone at BW still cares about Liara and her fans enough to do things right, but I have my doubts.  It is up to BW to prove me wrong, which I would gladly like to be.

If we don't get a big Liara expansion around the time the comic is finished though I think what is left of my hope for ME will erode completely.  That is assuming the comic leaves enough of her intact to be excited about.

[Nozybidaj]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

BioWare cares about Liara, otherwise they wouldn't have left her alive for ME3 or given her such a pivotal role in the trilogy, as shown in Redemption.

Leaving her alive for ME3 didn't mean cutting her out of the 1/3 of the story.  I am pretty sure Shepard, Joker, Dr. Chakwas and all the rest of the crew are gonna be there.  There would have been a hundred different ways to ensure the ME1 LI's made it through to ME3 without forgetting about them.

[Solitas777]

I liked Liara as the socially awkward intellectually curious archeologist. ME2....its like that character disappeared in the span of 2 years.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Nozybidaj wrote...

If we don't get a big Liara expansion around the time the comic is finished though I think what is left of my hope for ME will erode completely.  That is assuming the comic leaves enough of her intact to be excited about.

Well, I would add a qualifying statement to this that if the DLC isn't ready in April, then they need to at least announce it within 2-3 weeks after Redemption #4 is out (if they don't announce before then).

[jlb524]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Leaving her alive for ME3 didn't mean cutting her out of the 1/3 of the story.  I am pretty sure Shepard, Joker, Dr. Chakwas and all the rest of the crew are gonna be there.  There would have been a hundred different ways to ensure the ME1 LI's made it through to ME3 without forgetting about them.

This is true.  I really enjoyed Dr. Chakwas' role in ME2.  Heck, you could hang out with her and get drunk, which was more than you could do with the ME1 LI's.

Prior to ME2, I had hoped that Liara plus Ashley or Kaidan would have had major non-squad mate roles, similar to Anderson in ME1.  I hoped that maybe they could help Shepard with the suicide mission somehow.  I know Liara kind of does this by pointing Shepard towards Thane and Samara, but that's not much involvement. 

I would have liked if the ME1 LI's would have had more contact with Shepard over the course of the entire game, instead of one brief encounter, or multiple small encounters that are limited to one location (Liara's office).  

[Nizzemancer]

/sign



Liara for president...uhm, I mean ME3 companion-lover!

[bjdbwea]

You know, that scene with Chakwas would've been another perfect opportunity to let Shepard express some feelings for his/her ME 1 LIs. Little effort involved for the developers, but a significant increase in atmosphere for those who care about it.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 16 février 2010 - 11:18 .

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

You know, that scene with Chakwas would've been another perfect opportunity to let Shepard express some feelings for his/her ME 1 LIs. Little effort involved for the developers, but a significant increase in atmosphere for those who care about it.

That very last comment there is the key I think.