732 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryTigerP]

N30795 wrote...

Don't pull that "Bioware makes the character"-crap.

Characters are changed because of fans (or because of clothes, if you think of Miranda's ex-blond hair).

Look at Garrus or Tali: what the hell did say in ME1 that they were into interspecies relationship ? Nothing.

Then, a lot of complains for a Tali-mance/Garrus-mance, and bam, this character is changed from a friendly squadmate into a potential love interest.

Female players want to have more straight romances ? Let's design the Drell to look attractive.

Etc.

So Tali is not a romance interest in ME2, I can get over that.

Why not make her one in ME3 ?

Fine. I have no real qualm with that.

But if you are part of the 'gay DLC' crowd, then we have a problem. Tali's character in ME2 is straight. That's the way it is. Otherwise, pending sub-par writing (explaining why Tali comes onto Shepard after all of ME2), Tali swinging both ways in ME3 would be tolerable.

[Naltair]

HAGA NAGA wrote...
you're not a very good listener (reader, whatever). the majority of us are arguing that the orientation is already in-game and the conclusion of that content is missing.  you keep insisting that what we are trying to do is get Bioware to change Tali from straight to bisexual, which is wrong. we are arguing that they should give us the remaining 25% of a romance that is in the game. clear enough for ya?

You are assuming, there is no evidence to support that, other than it seems like it could happen.  But I digress it seems that some will see what they want to see.

[AngryTigerP]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

N30795 wrote...

People can ask for romance with nearly everyone - or everything - and hell, it's okay around here. If you shout enough, you'll even get what you were asking for (Tali, Garrus). But if you start saying you want a F/F or M/M romance, then it seems that you are really really wrong. It begins to be infuriating.

I really missed a Tali-FShep option in the game...

"Hey, I want Bioware to dedicate resources to release downloadable content (that has to apply to a wide swath of the fanbase) featuring a change in established story because I want to bang a straight chick!"

If you changed the thread title to Jack, Jacob, Miranda, Garrus, or Thane, I'd be in here, just as against it.

Bioware chose to have straight squadmates. It is outrageous to think that there should be DLC dedicated to changing their orientations for a relatively small (but very vocal) fanbase that wanted EXISTING characters to be modified in their personalities. Hell, if Bioware HAD gay squaddies, and someone was like, "Wow, that gay Turian guy is pretty hot! I wish my Femshep could do him! BIOWARE APPEASE ME!", I would be just as against it.

you're not a very good listener (reader, whatever). the majority of us are arguing that the orientation is already in-game and the conclusion of that content is missing.  you keep insisting that what we are trying to do is get Bioware to change Tali from straight to bisexual, which is wrong. we are arguing that they should give us the remaining 25% of a romance that is in the game. clear enough for ya?

And as I already 'argued':

AngryTigerP wrote...

Your notion is quite silly, really.
I mean... the part that really bugs me is your conspiracy
theory-generating scheme, where Bioware whitewashed (straightwashed?)
the game where it was ALWAYS MEANT TO contain gay relations. If Bioware
had the ability to release a game with purely gay romantic interests
(and not simply 'more tolerable' bisexual ones) as occurred with DA:O, what would stop them
from going through with making Tali bisexual? Absolutely nothing...
except if her character was always meant to be (that is, was
WRITTEN TO BE) straight.

I would actually like to see ME3
feature a flirtation attempt by femsheps where Tali responds
with, "Uh... Commander... I'm sorry, but that's not exactly the way I
fly." (okay, that's not how she would say it, but you get the idea).
Not to spite you, but so that it is explicitly stated that she isn't
bi, as anything less than that will leave individuals such as yourself
clamoring for an abuse of the creative process to satisfy what
YOU think the game should have been like.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 03 février 2010 - 11:22 .

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
Part of why I've been arguing in this thread is to try to figure out how ANYONE saying that in-game could still be in-character. 

How can anyone argue that physical genders would play a role in an extra-species relationship? The connection would have to be mental and emotional, ergo my confusion over why Tali picks up Male Shep when all communication between Tali and Shephard, whether Male or Female, has been exactly the same up to that point. 

That is a rather high level way of looking at it.

But we apply female traits to tali, we consider her a woman, we being the fans.  Just as we consider Garrus to be male, even if we really have no female turians to compare against.  They could look exactly alike.  So as the fans and general populace it makes sense that we would apply gender roles to other species even if it does not make total sense.  Within the ME universe this idea is reinforced and so is correct to apply gender specific titles to other species and is why Garrus is not available for a male Shepard.  Even if he is not attracted to humans and just Shepard, in some small way this seems more right to him than it would with a male Shepard.

Same goes for Tali, as written in game.

Traits. Ok. But no matter the..."traits", things are not going to..."fit". Which would force the relationship beyond the normal scope regardless of the physical traits. 

It just puzzles me that while a character is open to physical intimacy with another species, the fact that other members of their interest's species regard them in a certain way (other humans look at a male as male) would be paramount to their decision to pursue the relationship. 

[Heavensrun]

At the very least, I wish the conversation trees truncated more clearly. When squaddies don't have anything left to say, you get the same "ask me later" comments that you get when they're between conversation options. It makes a -lot- of the relationships (romantic or otherwise) feel like they're still in flux.



And yeah, if Tali's meant to be straight, it'd be nice to have a chance for her to tell you that, instead of the conversations just -stopping- earlier for femsheps.

[DaeJi]

AngryTigerP wrote...
But if you are part of the 'gay DLC' crowd, then we have a problem.

A same sex romance DLC could be something they do while working on another, bigger DLC. All they need to do is record something like ten minutes worth of dialog, which they could do while they have Hale and Meer in the studio recording lines for another DLC. Almost no time is needed to make it, all of the animation is already in the game, and they could charge players six dollars for content that would that them less than two hours to make and probably cost them less than fifty dollars. That's a good business decision if there ever was one, and it would not get in the way of other, hopefully Mars related DLCs.

[Naltair]

Well I am not going to get into the biology of it, I can only presume that for what it's worth Tali and Shepard have similar enough parts that it works.

[HAGA NAGA]

AngryTigerP wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

N30795 wrote...

People can ask for romance with nearly everyone - or everything - and hell, it's okay around here. If you shout enough, you'll even get what you were asking for (Tali, Garrus). But if you start saying you want a F/F or M/M romance, then it seems that you are really really wrong. It begins to be infuriating.

I really missed a Tali-FShep option in the game...

"Hey, I want Bioware to dedicate resources to release downloadable content (that has to apply to a wide swath of the fanbase) featuring a change in established story because I want to bang a straight chick!"

If you changed the thread title to Jack, Jacob, Miranda, Garrus, or Thane, I'd be in here, just as against it.

Bioware chose to have straight squadmates. It is outrageous to think that there should be DLC dedicated to changing their orientations for a relatively small (but very vocal) fanbase that wanted EXISTING characters to be modified in their personalities. Hell, if Bioware HAD gay squaddies, and someone was like, "Wow, that gay Turian guy is pretty hot! I wish my Femshep could do him! BIOWARE APPEASE ME!", I would be just as against it.

you're not a very good listener (reader, whatever). the majority of us are arguing that the orientation is already in-game and the conclusion of that content is missing.  you keep insisting that what we are trying to do is get Bioware to change Tali from straight to bisexual, which is wrong. we are arguing that they should give us the remaining 25% of a romance that is in the game. clear enough for ya?

And as I already 'argued':

AngryTigerP wrote...

Your notion is quite silly, really.
I mean... the part that really bugs me is your conspiracy
theory-generating scheme, where Bioware whitewashed (straightwashed?)
the game where it was ALWAYS MEANT TO contain gay relations. If Bioware
had the ability to release a game with purely gay romantic interests
(and not simply 'more tolerable' bisexual ones) as occurred with DA:O, what would stop them
from going through with making Tali bisexual? Absolutely nothing...
except if her character was always meant to be (that is, was
WRITTEN TO BE) straight.

I would actually like to see ME3
feature a flirtation attempt by femsheps where Tali responds
with, "Uh... Commander... I'm sorry, but that's not exactly the way I
fly." (okay, that's not how she would say it, but you get the idea).
Not to spite you, but so that it is explicitly stated that she isn't
bi, as anything less than that will leave individuals such as yourself
clamoring for an abuse of the creative process to satisfy what
YOU think the game should have been like.

i don't even know how to address you at this point.  it's like you're arguing a case with yourself over and over again, because you sure as hell aren't listening to anything i'm saying. so.....good luck with that i guess.

[AngryTigerP]

Heavensrun wrote...

At the very least, I wish the conversation trees truncated more clearly. When squaddies don't have anything left to say, you get the same "ask me later" comments that you get when they're between conversation options. It makes a -lot- of the relationships (romantic or otherwise) feel like they're still in flux.

And yeah, if Tali's meant to be straight, it'd be nice to have a chance for her to tell you that, instead of the conversations just -stopping- earlier for femsheps.

I guess Bioware assumed they would figure it out. They assumed wrong. Without explicitly having Tali say "Shepard, I am not bisexual", that seems to cause everyone to assume that she must be bi.

Except, you know, people who don't really care one way or another about such a minor plot element. Like the majority of players, I would think.

[Scire The Warden]

DaeJi wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
But if you are part of the 'gay DLC' crowd, then we have a problem.

A same sex romance DLC could be something they do while working on another, bigger DLC. All they need to do is record something like ten minutes worth of dialog, which they could do while they have Hale and Meer in the studio recording lines for another DLC. Almost no time is needed to make it, all of the animation is already in the game, and they could charge players six dollars for content that would that them less than two hours to make and probably cost them less than fifty dollars. That's a good business decision if there ever was one, and it would not get in the way of other, hopefully Mars related DLCs.

Hopefully Bioware doesn't base their DLC decisions on what would be fastest and earn the most money in the process....

IMO, once you have a character, changing it for no good in-game reason is a stupid idea.  I'd be perfectly fine if they added another female quarian to romance, but don't screw with a character once they've been fleshed out.

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

Well I am not going to get into the biology of it, I can only presume that for what it's worth Tali and Shepard have similar enough parts that it works.

When it comes to Tali, and Garrus, biology is the last place you want to go. If Shepard were to kiss either and get some of their saliva in her or his mouth, he or she could die.

[Kolaris8472]

Scire The Warden wrote...
Hopefully Bioware doesn't base their DLC decisions on what would be fastest and earn the most money in the process....

IMO, once you have a character, changing it for no good in-game reason is a stupid idea.  I'd be perfectly fine if they added another female quarian to romance, but don't screw with a character once they've been fleshed out.

She hasn't been fleshed out at all. That's the problem. 

[Scire The Warden]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Well I am not going to get into the biology of it, I can only presume that for what it's worth Tali and Shepard have similar enough parts that it works.

When it comes to Tali, and Garrus, biology is the last place you want to go. If Shepard were to kiss either and get some of their saliva in her or his mouth, he or she could die.

which is why tali didn't kiss shephard in the romance scene...

EDIT: and Kolaris, can you explain how Tali hasn't been fleshed out over the course of 2 games?

Modifié par Scire The Warden, 03 février 2010 - 11:29 .

[N30795]

AngryTigerP wrote...

N30795 wrote...

Don't pull that "Bioware makes the character"-crap.

Characters are changed because of fans (or because of clothes, if you think of Miranda's ex-blond hair).

Look at Garrus or Tali: what the hell did say in ME1 that they were into interspecies relationship ? Nothing.

Then, a lot of complains for a Tali-mance/Garrus-mance, and bam, this character is changed from a friendly squadmate into a potential love interest.

Female players want to have more straight romances ? Let's design the Drell to look attractive.

Etc.

So Tali is not a romance interest in ME2, I can get over that.

Why not make her one in ME3 ?

Fine. I have no real qualm with that.

But if you are part of the 'gay DLC' crowd, then we have a problem. Tali's character in ME2 is straight. That's the way it is. Otherwise, pending sub-par writing (explaining why Tali comes onto Shepard after all of ME2), Tali swinging both ways in ME3 would be tolerable.

I'm not asking to turn Tali a bisexual into ME2, even if I'd really like that, as I'm not asking to turn Miranda blond like she is in the artbook.

I actually think that BW won't make changes on characters from a game already released, it's just too late.

I agree with that point: you don't change something in a book after it has been printed and sold all over the world.

The only already-in-game squadmate that could be bisexual without hurting everything is Jack, I won't mind a DLC for that.

I would have liked to romance Tali as a FShep in the game, I can't, I'm disappointed. I plan on shouting a lot till ME3 for BioWare to hear us.

I hope I'll be able to do so in ME3.

Making the new-DLC-(talking)-squadmate bi : that would be good (yet unfair (no M/M))

Modifié par N30795, 03 février 2010 - 11:30 .

[Lord Atlia]

This thread moves too fast, my thoughts on the topic is that if the writers (they have the final say because this is their world) wanted to they could make Tali bi in ME3 and still not go out of character. Tali is very shy and not confident when it comes to relationships. ME2 makes it clear that she has had a crush/infatuation with Shepard during the events of ME1, (speculation) she might have even paced outside of Shepard's door (in the event he wasn't involved with someone else) prior to Ilos but did not have the courage to knock. She is also very young and inexperienced with cultures outside the Flotilla, thus she would not know what are the future human views on homosexuality. Tali was near petrified of approaching M Shep because she didn't want to be let down because of possible negative views on cross-species relationships, thus with F Shep she not only has to worry about the same things as M Shep but what if F Shep was straight?

[AngryTigerP]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

N30795 wrote...

People can ask for romance with nearly everyone - or everything - and hell, it's okay around here. If you shout enough, you'll even get what you were asking for (Tali, Garrus). But if you start saying you want a F/F or M/M romance, then it seems that you are really really wrong. It begins to be infuriating.

I really missed a Tali-FShep option in the game...

"Hey, I want Bioware to dedicate resources to release downloadable content (that has to apply to a wide swath of the fanbase) featuring a change in established story because I want to bang a straight chick!"

If you changed the thread title to Jack, Jacob, Miranda, Garrus, or Thane, I'd be in here, just as against it.

Bioware chose to have straight squadmates. It is outrageous to think that there should be DLC dedicated to changing their orientations for a relatively small (but very vocal) fanbase that wanted EXISTING characters to be modified in their personalities. Hell, if Bioware HAD gay squaddies, and someone was like, "Wow, that gay Turian guy is pretty hot! I wish my Femshep could do him! BIOWARE APPEASE ME!", I would be just as against it.

you're not a very good listener (reader, whatever). the majority of us are arguing that the orientation is already in-game and the conclusion of that content is missing.  you keep insisting that what we are trying to do is get Bioware to change Tali from straight to bisexual, which is wrong. we are arguing that they should give us the remaining 25% of a romance that is in the game. clear enough for ya?

And as I already 'argued':

AngryTigerP wrote...

Your notion is quite silly, really.
I mean... the part that really bugs me is your conspiracy
theory-generating scheme, where Bioware whitewashed (straightwashed?)
the game where it was ALWAYS MEANT TO contain gay relations. If Bioware
had the ability to release a game with purely gay romantic interests
(and not simply 'more tolerable' bisexual ones) as occurred with DA:O, what would stop them
from going through with making Tali bisexual? Absolutely nothing...
except if her character was always meant to be (that is, was
WRITTEN TO BE) straight.

I would actually like to see ME3
feature a flirtation attempt by femsheps where Tali responds
with, "Uh... Commander... I'm sorry, but that's not exactly the way I
fly." (okay, that's not how she would say it, but you get the idea).
Not to spite you, but so that it is explicitly stated that she isn't
bi, as anything less than that will leave individuals such as yourself
clamoring for an abuse of the creative process to satisfy what
YOU think the game should have been like.

i don't even know how to address you at this point.  it's like you're arguing a case with yourself over and over again, because you sure as hell aren't listening to anything i'm saying. so.....good luck with that i guess.

Sure, just don't answer me at all. You've already done it multiple times.

You are building yourself a conspiracy theory where Bioware is out to get you based on DIALOGUE. And not even sexual or romantic dialogue, general dialogue about how much trust Tali has for you. It is truly sad just how naive you are at this point. You want to keep your flawed beliefs, be my guest. Don't, however, act like you've got some superior evidence on your side. You don't.

[AngryTigerP]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...
Hopefully Bioware doesn't base their DLC decisions on what would be fastest and earn the most money in the process....

IMO, once you have a character, changing it for no good in-game reason is a stupid idea.  I'd be perfectly fine if they added another female quarian to romance, but don't screw with a character once they've been fleshed out.

She hasn't been fleshed out at all. That's the problem. 

Wow. Really?

So, IRL, because I'm heterosexual and have no real homosexual tendencies, my personality 'isn't fleshed out'?

That's basically what I get from this. Because Tali isn't lesbian, she isn't complete. And that returns to the initial point of this being a matter of selfishness (EVERY character should be bisexual!), rather than genuine concern.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 03 février 2010 - 11:34 .

[Heavensrun]

Naltair wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...
you're not a very good listener (reader, whatever). the majority of us are arguing that the orientation is already in-game and the conclusion of that content is missing.  you keep insisting that what we are trying to do is get Bioware to change Tali from straight to bisexual, which is wrong. we are arguing that they should give us the remaining 25% of a romance that is in the game. clear enough for ya?

You are assuming, there is no evidence to support that, other than it seems like it could happen.  But I digress it seems that some will see what they want to see.

Well, there isn't evidence to support it, really, but I got a distinct impression that the dialogue from Tali was recorded with a shep romance in mind.  It felt to me like there was tension between Tali and femshep in my game, but the development of the relationship just stops without comment.

I'm not saying this shows that Tali is bi (and it's just my opinion) but I -do- think that the actress was performing with the love interest plot in mind, which makes the performance not quite -fit- with femshep if she's meant to be straight.

I just wish, if they wanted her to be straight, they'd give you the chance to get shot down by her.  ;p  Or if they don't care, if it's not a pivotal element of the character, (and plotwise, I see no reason it should be) then why not let people have the option?

[DaeJi]

AngryTigerP wrote...

Wow. Really?

So, IRL, because I'm heterosexual and have no real homosexual tendencies, my personality 'isn't fleshed out'?

That's basically what I get from this. Because Tali isn't lesbian, she isn't complete. And that returns to the initial point of this being a matter of selfishness (EVERY character should be bisexual!), rather than genuine concern.

I believe what he meant was that Tali is a dynamic character that has not reached the end of her character growth. Especially if you play as a female Shepard.

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Well I am not going to get into the biology of it, I can only presume that for what it's worth Tali and Shepard have similar enough parts that it works.

When it comes to Tali, and Garrus, biology is the last place you want to go. If Shepard were to kiss either and get some of their saliva in her or his mouth, he or she could die.

It's pretty obvious that Tali and Shepard are kissing in that scene.

[AngryTigerP]

DaeJi wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

Wow. Really?

So, IRL, because I'm heterosexual and have no real homosexual tendencies, my personality 'isn't fleshed out'?

That's basically what I get from this. Because Tali isn't lesbian, she isn't complete. And that returns to the initial point of this being a matter of selfishness (EVERY character should be bisexual!), rather than genuine concern.

I believe what he meant was that Tali is a dynamic character that has not reached the end of her character growth. Especially if you play as a female Shepard.

So, again, because her sexuality isn't what those players want it to be, that means she's undeveloped?

I repeat: this is no better than saying every character should be bi, or else they are clearly flawed.

[DaeJi]

AngryTigerP wrote...
So, again, because her sexuality isn't what those players want it to be, that means she's undeveloped?

I repeat: this is no better than saying every character should be bi, or else they are clearly flawed.

It's not related at all to her sexuality. Okay, let's say that Tali stays a straight romance option, would you call her character progession finished?

[Naltair]

I think for me this issue is larger than just Tali, it has to deal with any potential LI and that is what ultimately concerns me.

[Heavensrun]

AngryTigerP wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...
Hopefully Bioware doesn't base their DLC decisions on what would be fastest and earn the most money in the process....

IMO, once you have a character, changing it for no good in-game reason is a stupid idea.  I'd be perfectly fine if they added another female quarian to romance, but don't screw with a character once they've been fleshed out.

She hasn't been fleshed out at all. That's the problem. 

Wow. Really?

So, IRL, because I'm heterosexual and have no real homosexual tendencies, my personality 'isn't fleshed out'?

That's basically what I get from this. Because Tali isn't lesbian, she isn't complete. And that returns to the initial point of this being a matter of selfishness (EVERY character should be bisexual!), rather than genuine concern.

I think you're simplifying the guy's point.

She's been fleshed out as a -character-, yes.

But her sexuality hasn't even been touched on, except in that if your shep is male, you have dialogue options that femshep doesn't have.  She's never really said "I'm straight", or "I'm bi", or "I'm gay", and as much as people like to pretend otherwise, you don't -really- know what someone's sexual prefferences are until they tell you.

Hell, some people don't even really know their -own- until something throws it into question.

So the point is less that Tali should be bi, or shouldn't be bi, and more that she -could- be, people would like her to be, and they have a right to express that desire.

Once, not too long ago, a lot of straight maleshep playing folk where talking about how they wished Tali was romancable for male shepards.  Were you giving them a hard time about trying to "change" a character because of "selfishness"?

This is the same thing.  Fans are trying to express their desire to open up deeper relationship options with a favorite character.  The only difference here is that these particular fans happen to be interested in a gay relationship.

Whether Bioware says yay or nay in the long run, there's nothing wrong with -asking-.

[N30795]

Let's try to pretend that Tali did not have enough self-confidence to talk to a female Shepard of her "romantic feelings". And female Shepard was, well oblivious or unsure.  Tali shows no sign of being a straight-only girl, she just does not take thing further in ME2... better stop that attitude in ME3.

Modifié par N30795, 03 février 2010 - 11:42 .