732 réponses à ce sujet

[ERJAK2]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

First off, i cannot believe that i am the only Femshep that was holding out for Tali.  It was incredible that our efforts in the forums preceding the release of ME2 led to Tali being a romanceable squadmate, but "only" with Maleshep? is that acceptable? I don't play as Maleshep, I was part of the Tali movement, how have i (we) been forgotten? why have my sisters (and brothers, i thought) abandoned me?

To make matters worse as I'm sure many of you know this is how ME2 plays out for a Femshep wishing to romance Tali:

everything proceeds as though it will be a possiblilty. you help her with her mission, it's emotional, she hugs you. you talk with her later and she tells you that she never met anyone she wanted to share her suit space with until she met you.  there are no two ways about this. she was going for it with you. *oops* must have been a programming glitch to have let the dialogue go that far, cause it goes no further. it was like bioware personally punched me in the face on this one.

I staked my whole Mass Effect experience on the hope that Tali would be romanceable with my Femshep. I stuck with all the other Tali Fans in the old forums and now they've abandoned me and it seems there is no one who feels the same way. How can this be? This so-called "The Gay Warden" is running his thread with occasional comments about how he thinks bisexual women are "yucky" and that is why he doesn't want Tali to be Femshep romanceable even though he is ultra-promoting Tali for ME3 (i loathe his name and approach).

I know this thread will be eaten alive with Tali haters that will love to gloat over my misfortune since all the other Tali fans got their way, but i had to post it just to see if maybe someone felt the same way.  I feel betrayed, discarded and utterly dissapointed.  It would be interesting to see if i am in fact alone or if someone out there eaither feels the same or can empathise.

Now that i think about it all, i wish Bioware would have the nerve to just let players romance whoever they wished regardless of sex or race (assuming they were "romanceable options" to begin with).  Am i wrong for feeling that way?

Was desperately hoping for Talimance for femshep, was very sad panda that it didn't happen. Especially considering all 3 femshep romance options sucked.

[AngryTigerP]

DaeJi wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
So, again, because her sexuality isn't what those players want it to be, that means she's undeveloped?

I repeat: this is no better than saying every character should be bi, or else they are clearly flawed.

It's not related at all to her sexuality. Okay, let's say that Tali stays a straight romance option, would you call her character progession finished?

Are you arguing that it is an inevitable development that she will become (will be revealed to be, at any rate) bisexual? That's the only analog concept I can come up with, because we know that her straight romance has to be developed (or, at least, likely WILL be); and by your supposition, her developing or revealing hidden (from Shep) bisexual feelings will be equivalent to character development increasing intimacy/connection between her and a Maleshep who romanced her. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 03 février 2010 - 11:42 .

[Kolaris8472]

AngryTigerP wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...
Hopefully Bioware doesn't base their DLC decisions on what would be fastest and earn the most money in the process....

IMO, once you have a character, changing it for no good in-game reason is a stupid idea.  I'd be perfectly fine if they added another female quarian to romance, but don't screw with a character once they've been fleshed out.

She hasn't been fleshed out at all. That's the problem. 

Wow. Really?

So, IRL, because I'm heterosexual and have no real homosexual tendencies, my personality 'isn't fleshed out'?

That's basically what I get from this. Because Tali isn't lesbian, she isn't complete. And that returns to the initial point of this being a matter of selfishness (EVERY character should be bisexual!), rather than genuine concern.

I should certainly hope not every character is bisexual. I'd like to have some characters with a strong leaning one way or the other. Tali was not one of them. 

First, its an extra-species relationship. I still don't buy that these terms have any consequence. 

Second, she leads strongly towards a more intimate involvement with Femshep throughout the story. No, Suit-Syncing is not implicitly romantic. I'm not even saying she was hinting at a romantic involvement, but following her data logs around Haelstrom (and then conversation aboard the Normandy) made it sound like she cared deeply enough for Femshep that the early and arbitrary "I really need to work on these Engines" line feels like something is missing. 

[Scire The Warden]

If she was bi, i'm pretty sure that a FemShep romanace would have been an option. At least, there would be more hints that she was too nervous to ask. Bioware creates the character before the game.

EDIT: Kolaris, can you not see that quarians have male/female genders that look just like the human ones?  How can you say gender is of no consequence?

Modifié par Scire The Warden, 03 février 2010 - 11:45 .

[ERJAK2]

Heavensrun wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...
Hopefully Bioware doesn't base their DLC decisions on what would be fastest and earn the most money in the process....

IMO, once you have a character, changing it for no good in-game reason is a stupid idea.  I'd be perfectly fine if they added another female quarian to romance, but don't screw with a character once they've been fleshed out.

She hasn't been fleshed out at all. That's the problem. 

Wow. Really?

So, IRL, because I'm heterosexual and have no real homosexual tendencies, my personality 'isn't fleshed out'?

That's basically what I get from this. Because Tali isn't lesbian, she isn't complete. And that returns to the initial point of this being a matter of selfishness (EVERY character should be bisexual!), rather than genuine concern.

I think you're simplifying the guy's point.

She's been fleshed out as a -character-, yes.

But her sexuality hasn't even been touched on, except in that if your shep is male, you have dialogue options that femshep doesn't have.  She's never really said "I'm straight", or "I'm bi", or "I'm gay", and as much as people like to pretend otherwise, you don't -really- know what someone's sexual prefferences are until they tell you.

Hell, some people don't even really know their -own- until something throws it into question.

So the point is less that Tali should be bi, or shouldn't be bi, and more that she -could- be, people would like her to be, and they have a right to express that desire.

Once, not too long ago, a lot of straight maleshep playing folk where talking about how they wished Tali was romancable for male shepards.  Were you giving them a hard time about trying to "change" a character because of "selfishness"?

This is the same thing.  Fans are trying to express their desire to open up deeper relationship options with a favorite character.  The only difference here is that these particular fans happen to be interested in a gay relationship.

Whether Bioware says yay or nay in the long run, there's nothing wrong with -asking-.

This, a thousand times this^

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

I think for me this issue is larger than just Tali, it has to deal with any potential LI and that is what ultimately concerns me.

Looking at your posts, you and I are flipping the same coin and getting different sides. I am also looking beyond just Tali; I want each gender to have at least one option for a same sex romance, regardless of who they choose.

[AngryTigerP]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...
Hopefully Bioware doesn't base their DLC decisions on what would be fastest and earn the most money in the process....

IMO, once you have a character, changing it for no good in-game reason is a stupid idea.  I'd be perfectly fine if they added another female quarian to romance, but don't screw with a character once they've been fleshed out.

She hasn't been fleshed out at all. That's the problem. 

Wow. Really?

So, IRL, because I'm heterosexual and have no real homosexual tendencies, my personality 'isn't fleshed out'?

That's basically what I get from this. Because Tali isn't lesbian, she isn't complete. And that returns to the initial point of this being a matter of selfishness (EVERY character should be bisexual!), rather than genuine concern.

I should certainly hope not every character is bisexual. I'd like to have some characters with a strong leaning one way or the other. Tali was not one of them. 

First, its an extra-species relationship. I still don't buy that these terms have any consequence. 

Second, she leads strongly towards a more intimate involvement with Femshep throughout the story. No, Suit-Syncing is not implicitly romantic. I'm not even saying she was hinting at a romantic involvement, but following her data logs around Haelstrom (and then conversation aboard the Normandy) made it sound like she cared deeply enough for Femshep that the early and arbitrary "I really need to work on these Engines" line feels like something is missing. 

That's all projecting. One could argue -- as has been done previously in this thread, many times -- that all of those things are indicative of platonic romance. Myself, I don't really see much ambiguity in the "I miss Shepard" (unless you think Joker was hitting on Maleshep when he was reminiscing about old times, in a similar manner to Tali's logs) bit -- Tali remembered all the fires you pulled the squad out of or led through.

[HAGA NAGA]

AngryTigerP wrote...

Sure, just don't answer me at all. You've already done it multiple times.

You are building yourself a conspiracy theory where Bioware is out to get you based on DIALOGUE. And not even sexual or romantic dialogue, general dialogue about how much trust Tali has for you. It is truly sad just how naive you are at this point. You want to keep your flawed beliefs, be my guest. Don't, however, act like you've got some superior evidence on your side. You don't.

look. i'm not answering you because i consistently have no idea what the hell you're talking about! "Conspiracy"?!, "Flawed Beliefs" what the F? dude, i'm sorry but you're very difficult to engage in a discussion.

[AngryTigerP]

Heavensrun wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...
Hopefully Bioware doesn't base their DLC decisions on what would be fastest and earn the most money in the process....

IMO, once you have a character, changing it for no good in-game reason is a stupid idea.  I'd be perfectly fine if they added another female quarian to romance, but don't screw with a character once they've been fleshed out.

She hasn't been fleshed out at all. That's the problem. 

Wow. Really?

So, IRL, because I'm heterosexual and have no real homosexual tendencies, my personality 'isn't fleshed out'?

That's basically what I get from this. Because Tali isn't lesbian, she isn't complete. And that returns to the initial point of this being a matter of selfishness (EVERY character should be bisexual!), rather than genuine concern.

I think you're simplifying the guy's point.

She's been fleshed out as a -character-, yes.

But her sexuality hasn't even been touched on, except in that if your shep is male, you have dialogue options that femshep doesn't have.  She's never really said "I'm straight", or "I'm bi", or "I'm gay", and as much as people like to pretend otherwise, you don't -really- know what someone's sexual prefferences are until they tell you.

Hell, some people don't even really know their -own- until something throws it into question.

So the point is less that Tali should be bi, or shouldn't be bi, and more that she -could- be, people would like her to be, and they have a right to express that desire.

Once, not too long ago, a lot of straight maleshep playing folk where talking about how they wished Tali was romancable for male shepards.  Were you giving them a hard time about trying to "change" a character because of "selfishness"?

This is the same thing.  Fans are trying to express their desire to open up deeper relationship options with a favorite character.  The only difference here is that these particular fans happen to be interested in a gay relationship.

Whether Bioware says yay or nay in the long run, there's nothing wrong with -asking-.

So basically, you want an option for every character on the dialogue wheel --

"What is your sexuality"?

Because the perceived ambiguity is enough to REQUIRE clarification?

[N30795]

That could actually be very funny.

[Scire The Warden]

This is basically the equivalent of asking for a legion romance. After all, legion never defined it's sexuality, did it? Hopefully you see what's wrong with that argument.

[ERJAK2]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I think for me this issue is larger than just Tali, it has to deal with any potential LI and that is what ultimately concerns me.

Looking at your posts, you and I are flipping the same coin and getting different sides. I am also looking beyond just Tali; I want each gender to have at least one option for a same sex romance, regardless of who they choose.

I wonder if Bioware did this on purpose so they could throw a big ole curveball in ME3(which apparently is coming out a lot sooner then I thought). They've had a real option for at least F/F in every game they've come out with since KOTOR, and dragon age let you run wild(except morrigan and alistair, but not every character can be Bi), then they took this huge step backwards for no apparent reason in ME2. If they had just included another good gay romance option, even if it was only a female one, these threads probably wouldn't exist.

Which makes me think I smell a rat. Bioware has to know they'd stir up more controversey with exclusion than inclusion(don't even argue this, it's true) so why did they purposefully leave it out, even going so far as to mock us with Kelly.

Modifié par ERJAK2, 03 février 2010 - 11:53 .

[Kolaris8472]

Scire The Warden wrote...

If she was bi, i'm pretty sure that a FemShep romanace would have been an option. At least, there would be more hints that she was too nervous to ask. Bioware creates the character before the game.

EDIT: Kolaris, can you not see that quarians have male/female genders that look just like the human ones?  How can you say gender is of no consequence?

Right now they have a few traits that resemble human gender traits - shoulder breadth, voice pitch, breast size, reproductive roles in a general sense - but either way a human/quarian relationship would have to go beyond what either considers "normal" physical intimacy. 

[Scire The Warden]

Maybe because we should leave the character-building to bioware and not the fanbase, and bioware knows it.

EDIT: Kolaris, I think bioware makes it pretty clear that quarian/drell/whatever humanoid alien speces reproduction works the same way as human reproduction...

Modifié par Scire The Warden, 03 février 2010 - 11:55 .

[AngryTigerP]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

Sure, just don't answer me at all. You've already done it multiple times.

You are building yourself a conspiracy theory where Bioware is out to get you based on DIALOGUE. And not even sexual or romantic dialogue, general dialogue about how much trust Tali has for you. It is truly sad just how naive you are at this point. You want to keep your flawed beliefs, be my guest. Don't, however, act like you've got some superior evidence on your side. You don't.

look. i'm not answering you because i consistently have no idea what the hell you're talking about! "Conspiracy"?!, "Flawed Beliefs" what the F? dude, i'm sorry but you're very difficult to engage in a discussion.

You clearly did not read anything I had to say beyond those buzzwords. I had a feeling such would be the case. Allow me to simplify.

You want to see your projecting as factual. Much like the person who interpreted Tali's logs with "I miss Shepard" on Planet Whatever to mean that she was longing romantically, you wish to think that a conversation about trust -- exclusive to neither gender Shepard -- means that there would inevitably be a development towards romance.

I argue -- well, state, but you wish to make a debate of it -- that those 'romance lead-in' bits are, in fact, simply parts of the 'get-to-know-you' dialogue that every character has, and that the romance lines start exactly where they do -- with Maleshep asking if Tali's got the hots for her. You just want perceive the fact that her dialogue applies closer to trust then pretty much anyone else's to mean that she is romantically interested.

Note: Garrus has three lead-in convos before the scene. SO DOES TALI. This points to the clear fact that nothing was removed.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 03 février 2010 - 11:56 .

[HAGA NAGA]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Was desperately hoping for Talimance for femshep, was very sad panda that it didn't happen. Especially considering all 3 femshep romance options sucked.

you and me both......ugh. i'm thinkin it might not be over yet though.  possibilities:

1) patch to fix Femshep/Tali romance glitch

2) deal with it through DLC

3) wait until ME3 to fix it

all we can do is hope

[ERJAK2]

AngryTigerP wrote...


So basically, you want an option for every character on the dialogue wheel --

"What is your sexuality"?

Because the perceived ambiguity is enough to REQUIRE clarification?

No, the perceived ambiguity means that "he's/she's straight" is not a valid argument against him/her having a romantic interest in a Shepard of the same gender. As long as it's not specifically stated, it is open to interpretation.

[Scire The Warden]

I hardly think that the femshep/tali romance was a *glitch*. As was just mentioned, the romance with Tali starts exactly where it starts with maleshep, not before, not after. Projecting trust to mean romance isn't logical at all. It's like saying Thane has the hots for maleshep because he told him he was the first friend he's had in years.

While we're at it with ambiguity argument, here are some other ambiguities that should get cleaned up:

Romance with Legion (has hero worship of shepard, evidenced by the n7 armor repair)
Romance with Joker (talks to shepard a lot, reminiscies about the past, etc)
Romance with the biotic volus (seemed to be trying really hard to impress shepard)
Romance with the Galaxy Map (used by shepard all the time, has to have some sort of connection)

Modifié par Scire The Warden, 04 février 2010 - 12:00 .

[Kolaris8472]

Scire The Warden wrote...

This is basically the equivalent of asking for a legion romance. After all, legion never defined it's sexuality, did it? Hopefully you see what's wrong with that argument.

I see what's wrong with the comparison, sure. There is enough physical, emotional, mental, and even spiritual similarity between a Shephard and Tali that pursuing a relationship isn't out of the question. The real issue is how much similarity is required. 

classic red herring and slippery slope arguments there. 

[AngryTigerP]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

Was desperately hoping for Talimance for femshep, was very sad panda that it didn't happen. Especially considering all 3 femshep romance options sucked.

you and me both......ugh. i'm thinkin it might not be over yet though.  possibilities:

1) patch to fix Femshep/Tali romance glitch

There is no glitch.

You know how many romantic pre-love scene convos Femshep has with Garrus? 3 (including the one that repeats whenever you talk to him, even after the endgame).

You know how many romantic pre-love scene convos Maleshep has with Tali? 3.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 03 février 2010 - 11:59 .

[AngryTigerP]

Last line was meant to be "Maleshep with Tali".

[ERJAK2]

Scire The Warden wrote...

Maybe because we should leave the character-building to bioware and not the fanbase, and bioware knows it.

EDIT: Kolaris, I think bioware makes it pretty clear that quarian/drell/whatever humanoid alien speces reproduction works the same way as human reproduction...

Try reproducing with a quarian or a drell, either nothing happens or you get one F'ed up kid.

Beyond that, Bioware's utter failure with the female romance options, beyond the fact that they're all male, means that some polite suggestions are in order.

[Scire The Warden]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

This is basically the equivalent of asking for a legion romance. After all, legion never defined it's sexuality, did it? Hopefully you see what's wrong with that argument.

I see what's wrong with the comparison, sure. There is enough physical, emotional, mental, and even spiritual similarity between a Shephard and Tali that pursuing a relationship isn't out of the question. The real issue is how much similarity is required. 

classic red herring and slippery slope arguments there. 

I don't know, legion seems to have mad respect for shepard what with the n7 armor repair and everything, and he even goes out of the way to perform the robot for shepard if you wait enough, just to make sure you aren't bored...i think there's something there.  

EDIT: Erjak, i meant the MECHANISM.  i never said that inter species should be able to reproduce, i meant the mechanism is the same.

Modifié par Scire The Warden, 04 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[Kolaris8472]

Scire The Warden wrote...
EDIT: Kolaris, I think bioware makes it pretty clear that quarian/drell/whatever humanoid alien speces reproduction works the same way as human reproduction...

They made a point to specifically state, multiple times, that humans and asari were physiologically "compatible". They have made no such statement in other cases, and the notion that it would work across a broad spectrum of multiple species is biologically speaking, rather preposterous. 

Drell and I believe Turians are said to be Repitllian which would imply external eggs, for one. 

[ERJAK2]

AngryTigerP wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

Was desperately hoping for Talimance for femshep, was very sad panda that it didn't happen. Especially considering all 3 femshep romance options sucked.

you and me both......ugh. i'm thinkin it might not be over yet though.  possibilities:

1) patch to fix Femshep/Tali romance glitch

There is no glitch.

You know how many romantic pre-love scene convos Femshep has with Garrus? 3 (including the one that repeats whenever you talk to him, even after the endgame).

You know how many romantic pre-love scene convos Maleshep has with Tali? 3.

This is a logical fallacy, the two are unrelated concepts. Not disagreeing about it being a glitch, it isn't, but the logic here is wrong.