732 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryTigerP]

Scire The Warden wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

This is basically the equivalent of asking for a legion romance. After all, legion never defined it's sexuality, did it? Hopefully you see what's wrong with that argument.

I see what's wrong with the comparison, sure. There is enough physical, emotional, mental, and even spiritual similarity between a Shephard and Tali that pursuing a relationship isn't out of the question. The real issue is how much similarity is required. 

classic red herring and slippery slope arguments there. 

I don't know, legion seems to have mad respect for shepard what with the n7 armor repair and everything, and he even goes out of the way to perform the robot for shepard if you wait enough, just to make sure you aren't bored...i think there's something there.  

YOU'RE ON TO SOMETHING!

Clearly, the "No Data" bit that both Maleshep and Femshep get from him means that he want to romance both of them! It's not gender-independent dialogue at all!

[Scire The Warden]

Kolaris, as if the physiology of the aliens didn't make it obvious enough...Does bioware have to explicity state it? really?

[ERJAK2]

Scire The Warden wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

This is basically the equivalent of asking for a legion romance. After all, legion never defined it's sexuality, did it? Hopefully you see what's wrong with that argument.

I see what's wrong with the comparison, sure. There is enough physical, emotional, mental, and even spiritual similarity between a Shephard and Tali that pursuing a relationship isn't out of the question. The real issue is how much similarity is required. 

classic red herring and slippery slope arguments there. 

I don't know, legion seems to have mad respect for shepard what with the n7 armor repair and everything, and he even goes out of the way to perform the robot for shepard if you wait enough, just to make sure you aren't bored...i think there's something there.  

EDIT: Erjak, i meant the MECHANISM.  i never said that inter species should be able to reproduce, i meant the mechanism is the same.

So? The mechanism means nothing if the species are incompatible. That comes down to romantic love overcoming physiological differences. Gender shouldn't even be a foot note.

[HAGA NAGA]

AngryTigerP wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

Sure, just don't answer me at all. You've already done it multiple times.

You are building yourself a conspiracy theory where Bioware is out to get you based on DIALOGUE. And not even sexual or romantic dialogue, general dialogue about how much trust Tali has for you. It is truly sad just how naive you are at this point. You want to keep your flawed beliefs, be my guest. Don't, however, act like you've got some superior evidence on your side. You don't.

look. i'm not answering you because i consistently have no idea what the hell you're talking about! "Conspiracy"?!, "Flawed Beliefs" what the F? dude, i'm sorry but you're very difficult to engage in a discussion.

You clearly did not read anything I had to say beyond those buzzwords. I had a feeling such would be the case. Allow me to simplify.

You want to see your projecting as factual. Much like the person who interpreted Tali's logs with "I miss Shepard" on Planet Whatever to mean that she was longing romantically, you wish to think that a conversation about trust -- exclusive to neither gender Shepard -- means that there would inevitably be a development towards romance.

I argue -- well, state, but you wish to make a debate of it -- that those 'romance lead-in' bits are, in fact, simply parts of the 'get-to-know-you' dialogue that every character has, and that the romance lines start exactly where they do -- with Maleshep asking if Tali's got the hots for her. You just want perceive the fact that her dialogue applies closer to trust then pretty much anyone else's to mean that she is romantically interested.

Note: Garrus has three lead-in convos before the scene. SO DOES TALI. This points to the clear fact that nothing was removed.

yeah ok. And YOU wish to think that all of those romantic cues "aren't" romantic implications. wow. we've had that discussion.

it's all the "Hey HAGA NAGA, you're Conspiracy theories surrounding Bioware!!!!", "Your Conspiracy-Generating Schemes about Bioware White-washing!", "Go ahead and believe your Superior-Evidence is right if you want to!" garbage that i can't wrap my head around. It's confused ranting and a little more than a bit annoying.

i think we were actually done with our discussion several pages back.

[AngryTigerP]

ERJAK2 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

Was desperately hoping for Talimance for femshep, was very sad panda that it didn't happen. Especially considering all 3 femshep romance options sucked.

you and me both......ugh. i'm thinkin it might not be over yet though.  possibilities:

1) patch to fix Femshep/Tali romance glitch

There is no glitch.

You know how many romantic pre-love scene convos Femshep has with Garrus? 3 (including the one that repeats whenever you talk to him, even after the endgame).

You know how many romantic pre-love scene convos Maleshep has with Tali? 3.

This is a logical fallacy, the two are unrelated concepts. Not disagreeing about it being a glitch, it isn't, but the logic here is wrong. 

I see no failure in logic. Please look at my post earlier on that page.

The primary argument OP is that Tali was meant to have a femshep romance, and that Bioware tried to cut it out while leaving it partially intact. I am pointing out that the GENDER-EXCLUSIVE, PRE-LOVE SCENE romantic dialogue for each LI consists of 3 conversations about the romance, no more, no less, including the "I'm committed" final dialogue. If the OP is correct, Tali's inexplicably breaks the formula.

[DaeJi]

AngryTigerP wrote...
YOU'RE ON TO SOMETHING!

Clearly, the "No Data" bit that both Maleshep and Femshep get from him means that he want to romance both of them! It's not gender-independent dialogue at all!

Logical fallacy, we're discussion team mates who are already love interest and whose dialog is designed to lead to a relationship regardless of which gender your Shepard is. The difference is that depending on gender the dialog either stops or continues.

[Scire The Warden]

I'm getting tired of the logical fallacy BS, it's a logical fallacy to declare logical fallacy to avoid an argument.  You have to support why.

It's not a fallacy at all.  I"m using the legion example to show what's wrong with your logic.  You're basing the entire romance on everything being ambiguous, so i'm using the exact same logic to show why a romance with legion would be a good idea.

Modifié par Scire The Warden, 04 février 2010 - 12:08 .

[AngryTigerP]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

Sure, just don't answer me at all. You've already done it multiple times.

You are building yourself a conspiracy theory where Bioware is out to get you based on DIALOGUE. And not even sexual or romantic dialogue, general dialogue about how much trust Tali has for you. It is truly sad just how naive you are at this point. You want to keep your flawed beliefs, be my guest. Don't, however, act like you've got some superior evidence on your side. You don't.

look. i'm not answering you because i consistently have no idea what the hell you're talking about! "Conspiracy"?!, "Flawed Beliefs" what the F? dude, i'm sorry but you're very difficult to engage in a discussion.

You clearly did not read anything I had to say beyond those buzzwords. I had a feeling such would be the case. Allow me to simplify.

You want to see your projecting as factual. Much like the person who interpreted Tali's logs with "I miss Shepard" on Planet Whatever to mean that she was longing romantically, you wish to think that a conversation about trust -- exclusive to neither gender Shepard -- means that there would inevitably be a development towards romance.

I argue -- well, state, but you wish to make a debate of it -- that those 'romance lead-in' bits are, in fact, simply parts of the 'get-to-know-you' dialogue that every character has, and that the romance lines start exactly where they do -- with Maleshep asking if Tali's got the hots for her. You just want perceive the fact that her dialogue applies closer to trust then pretty much anyone else's to mean that she is romantically interested.

Note: Garrus has three lead-in convos before the scene. SO DOES TALI. This points to the clear fact that nothing was removed.

i think we were actually done with our discussion several pages back.

"I was done acknowledging the validity of my claims in favor of my own flawed logic several pages back" is how it should read.

Well, you're going to remain blind to the truth. I really have no more point to be here. Time to get back to ME2.

[ERJAK2]

AngryTigerP wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

This is basically the equivalent of asking for a legion romance. After all, legion never defined it's sexuality, did it? Hopefully you see what's wrong with that argument.

I see what's wrong with the comparison, sure. There is enough physical, emotional, mental, and even spiritual similarity between a Shephard and Tali that pursuing a relationship isn't out of the question. The real issue is how much similarity is required. 

classic red herring and slippery slope arguments there. 

I don't know, legion seems to have mad respect for shepard what with the n7 armor repair and everything, and he even goes out of the way to perform the robot for shepard if you wait enough, just to make sure you aren't bored...i think there's something there.  

YOU'RE ON TO SOMETHING!

Clearly, the "No Data" bit that both Maleshep and Femshep get from him means that he want to romance both of them! It's not gender-independent dialogue at all!

You guys are tip-toeing acoss the line into a whole different can of worms. We're talking about romantic love between sapient organic species. Your talking about the whole "is a machine, however intelligent, capable of love" issue.

[AngryTigerP]

DaeJi wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
YOU'RE ON TO SOMETHING!

Clearly, the "No Data" bit that both Maleshep and Femshep get from him means that he want to romance both of them! It's not gender-independent dialogue at all!

Logical fallacy, we're discussion team mates who are already love interest and whose dialog is designed to lead to a relationship regardless of which gender your Shepard is. The difference is that depending on gender the dialog either stops or continues.

Really? So you're claiming that Tali doesn't have the same number of "I love you" Shepard convos as the other characters? That she somehow has more?

You strain the limits of credulity in your counterargumentation.

[AngryTigerP]

Oh, and I was making a satirical point that you are interpreting romance- AND gender-inspecific general friendship/companion-building dialogue to be, well, ROMANTIC. But, of course, it was lost on the current party.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 04 février 2010 - 12:10 .

[ItalyIshida]

You're not the only one OP! I was so disappointed that my FemShep couldn't hook it up with Tali I waited so long and was so hopeful. We were going to hook suits! Hook SUITS! The only reason I'm even playing a male Shepard is for Tali.

[Radahldo]

She's (currently) exclusive for maleShep because funding for an exclusive F/F pairing is unlikely; it is not that the devs explored her characters sexuality, considering F/F and M/M equally. You guys are just being unfair acting as if it were so.
The physical barrier of her suit, one of the anchoring points of her design.. after overcoming that, gender is what she discriminates against? Thats just asinine.

Modifié par Radahldo, 04 février 2010 - 12:11 .

[MagicianCamille]

Uhh, maybe Tali isn't into chicks?



Why does every character have to be a bisexual or gay?

[Kolaris8472]

Scire The Warden wrote...

Kolaris, as if the physiology of the aliens didn't make it obvious enough...Does bioware have to explicity state it? really?

You think just because they have two legs, two arms, two eyes (whoops! Batarians excluded), they also "get in on" in the same way? 

Volus have two eyes two arms and two legs, but you don't see any of their suits "bulging" to be on the crass side. 

[Scire The Warden]

ERJAK2 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

This is basically the equivalent of asking for a legion romance. After all, legion never defined it's sexuality, did it? Hopefully you see what's wrong with that argument.

I see what's wrong with the comparison, sure. There is enough physical, emotional, mental, and even spiritual similarity between a Shephard and Tali that pursuing a relationship isn't out of the question. The real issue is how much similarity is required. 

classic red herring and slippery slope arguments there. 

I don't know, legion seems to have mad respect for shepard what with the n7 armor repair and everything, and he even goes out of the way to perform the robot for shepard if you wait enough, just to make sure you aren't bored...i think there's something there.  

YOU'RE ON TO SOMETHING!

Clearly, the "No Data" bit that both Maleshep and Femshep get from him means that he want to romance both of them! It's not gender-independent dialogue at all!

You guys are tip-toeing acoss the line into a whole different can of worms. We're talking about romantic love between sapient organic species. Your talking about the whole "is a machine, however intelligent, capable of love" issue.

It's not actually a whole different can of worms at all.  If anything, it's the exact same thing. 

Let me list some arguments used by your side and apply them to a legion relationship argument:

1.  Tali is ambiguous as to whether or not she wants a romance.  Well, so is legion.
2.  Tali's is support by evidence.  Legion has evidence too, i already brought up the n7 armor and robot entertainment.   I'm pushing for legion to become a viable romance for both species.
3.  Alien reproduction is differnt from human reproduction, gender cannot be taken into account as mental/emotional stuff matters more.  Well, Legion is sapient, and would also not care whether it was dating a male or female.  And we obviously know it has feelings for shep.

[AngryTigerP]

MagicianCamille wrote...

Uhh, maybe Tali isn't into chicks?

Why does every character have to be a bisexual or gay?

Clearly, their character isn't fully developed.

Now, if she had EXPLICITLY STATED "Commander, I'm straight", they supposedly wouldn't have a problem with it (I call EPIC BS)

[ERJAK2]

Scire The Warden wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

Was desperately hoping for Talimance for femshep, was very sad panda that it didn't happen. Especially considering all 3 femshep romance options sucked.

you and me both......ugh. i'm thinkin it might not be over yet though.  possibilities:

1) patch to fix Femshep/Tali romance glitch

There is no glitch.

You know how many romantic pre-love scene convos Femshep has with Garrus? 3 (including the one that repeats whenever you talk to him, even after the endgame).

You know how many romantic pre-love scene convos Maleshep has with Tali? 3.

This is a logical fallacy, the two are unrelated concepts. Not disagreeing about it being a glitch, it isn't, but the logic here is wrong. 

Maybe you would like to point out why it's wrong.  I can say that your statement just there is a logical fallacy too.

Simple, Garrus has three lead in conversations. Tali has three lead in conversations. These two events are unconnected, neither has any effect on the other. If Garrus was not a romance optin, Tali would still have 3 lead in conversations to the romance, and vice versa. The arbitrary(as of now, Bioware could confirm it) similarity does not truly mean anything.

Example: A garbage truck and a boat both have engines, they must both be able to float.

[Scire The Warden]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

Kolaris, as if the physiology of the aliens didn't make it obvious enough...Does bioware have to explicity state it? really?

You think just because they have two legs, two arms, two eyes (whoops! Batarians excluded), they also "get in on" in the same way? 

Volus have two eyes two arms and two legs, but you don't see any of their suits "bulging" to be on the crass side. 

If you cannot realize that Bioware intended to make them as similar to humans as possible, and if you further cannot see the similarty from the Tali romance scene, I have nothing further to say to you as nothing i say will get through.

[cptlee]

I would totally destroy that Quarian in the sack. Femshep too.

[ERJAK2]

AngryTigerP wrote...

MagicianCamille wrote...

Uhh, maybe Tali isn't into chicks?

Why does every character have to be a bisexual or gay?

Clearly, their character isn't fully developed.

Now, if she had EXPLICITLY STATED "Commander, I'm straight", they supposedly wouldn't have a problem with it (I call EPIC BS)

She's already a xenophile,  why not jump ship completely?

[DaeJi]

People are really dead set on not altering a character to appeal to a set of fans that the developers altered to appeal to a set of fans.

[Scire The Warden]

Hmm, because she's straight with quarians, and because humans are so much like quarians that for her it's almost the same thing.

That's like saying-shephard is already bi, why not jump ship completly and romance EDI/Legion/The Galaxy map?

Modifié par Scire The Warden, 04 février 2010 - 12:16 .

[ERJAK2]

DaeJi wrote...

People are really dead set on not altering a character to appeal to a set of fans that the developers altered to appeal to a set of fans.

Win wordplay is win.

[Kolaris8472]

Radahldo wrote...

She's (currently) exclusive for maleShep because funding for an exclusive F/F pairing is unlikely; it is not that the devs explored her characters sexuality, considering F/F and M/M equally. You guys are just being unfair acting as if it were so.
The physical barrier of her suit, one of the anchoring points of her design.. after overcoming that, gender is what she discriminates against? Thats just asinine.

This is what I'm concerned about. Whether its Tali romancing Male Sheps or Tali not romancing Femsheps, either way it doesn't feel like character development and either fanservice or cold feet for getting into another media scandal.