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[Lord Atlia]

MagicianCamille wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

MagicianCamille wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

MagicianCamille wrote...

You say you "care" about Tali but you essentially want to change who she is. If you cared about Tali you'd accept that she is straight, and not want her to be written as a bisexual. There are 3 exclusive FemShep romances, and 3 exclusive MaleShep romances. Bisexual Tali would have to mean a bisexual Thane, or Garrus, or Jacob. How many bisexual people are we gonna have on this ship?

Forget about the Reapers, let's just break down into random pairs and start going at it, we'll switch partners every time EDI stops the music.

Bring the femshep romances in again. I dare you. Those sorry excuses for dialogue choices don't count anymore than Kelly did. You want to talk fairness? Maleshep gets 2 beautiful human women and a gorgeous quarian female.

Femshep gets a disfigured TURIAN, a DIEING lizardman, and a human male that's blah.

Miranda looks like a cyborg and has the personality to boot. Jack is a tatted up baldy, and Tali is fully covered, has a glask mask, and an inhuman amount of fingers and toes.

And Jacob is meh? Come on, even I got wood when I saw that chest shot.

Err, what? So you came to mock people trying to discuss a fictional character's personality and identity, then staid to get an erection over a fictional character's bare chest? 

Pretty much. This entire "discussion" is absurd. Why not be absurd myself? 

My hat off to you good sir, I lol'd at your Alice in Wonderland style reasoning. 

[Scire The Warden]

ERJAK, we're not freaking out about a F/F relationship, and i'm not sure where you got that idea. What i do dislike is changing Tali. By all means, make a female quarian and make it a FemShep only option. Just not tali.

[HAGA NAGA]

ERJAK2 wrote...

MagicianCamille wrote...

You say you "care" about Tali but you essentially want to change who she is. If you cared about Tali you'd accept that she is straight, and not want her to be written as a bisexual. There are 3 exclusive FemShep romances, and 3 exclusive MaleShep romances. Bisexual Tali would have to mean a bisexual Thane, or Garrus, or Jacob. How many bisexual people are we gonna have on this ship?

Forget about the Reapers, let's just break down into random pairs and start going at it, we'll switch partners every time EDI stops the music.

Bring the femshep romances in again. I dare you. Those sorry excuses for dialogue choices don't count anymore than Kelly did. You want to talk fairness? Maleshep gets 2 beautiful human women and a gorgeous quarian female.

Femshep gets a disfigured TURIAN, a DIEING lizardman, and a human male that's blah.

ya know. it's crazy too. the amount of work that must go into these games to be fully-voiced Male & Female. And to not provide that same level of service in terms of "romance options".  which ok, some people think doesn't matter. SOME people! I would argue that bioware fans typically care a GREAT DEAL about romance options. It's like the biggest Bioware staple there is. And again, to go to the trouble to pander to Bioware fans in terms of voicing the main character as Male & Female and then turning around and screwing the Femsheps on Romance Options is beyond my comprehension. Are they just trapped into having to voice Femshep now? and they'd rather not mess with it. i dunno.........lol. your comment got me ranting twice now.

[Kolaris8472]

Scire The Warden wrote...

Kolaris, I accept those are strong points, and if Tali were an asari, yes it would be absurd. However, the way i see it is that Tali is a female who is attracted to quarian males, and that because humans/quarians are so similar in this respect she is attracted to MaleShep and not FemShep. The same way a human male could be attracted to a human woman because she is nice and not another male because he is nice.

If we had actually heard of some of her old boyfriend's aboard the Flotilla or something for one...and then, if we ever got her saying that she thought Humans and Quarians were remarkably similar...

Its a fair position, but you're making a pair of assumptions I'm not willing to. Though frankly, its poor writing if for a matter like this the player/reader has to be making several assumptions for things to make sense. 

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 04 février 2010 - 01:07 .

[Naltair]

I won't freak out, if that is her character then so be it. I would rather the character stay who they are then be changed by fan whim, and for those that state that this was the case with Tali and Garrus romances to begin with... Well I would like to add that I think they suspected people could like them but didn't want to take the chance but saw the fan appeal and made the easy shift to making them romanceable and explaining how it came about.



I really don't think it was a huge shift more a surprise really overall but I suspect especially with Tali it was something they wanted to do but didn't for fear of her alien features.

[ERJAK2]

Scire The Warden wrote...

ERJAK, whether or not one group of relationships vs another group of relationships is better is completly subjective and cannot be used as evidence to argue your case.

It was a warning against using the femshep romances in an argument for equality, as I have a very strong personal opposition to this(subjective) argument, and can't be held accountable for losing my veneer of civility.

[Naltair]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

ya know. it's crazy too. the amount of work that must go into these games to be fully-voiced Male & Female. And to not provide that same level of service in terms of "romance options".  which ok, some people think doesn't matter. SOME people! I would argue that bioware fans typically care a GREAT DEAL about romance options. It's like the biggest Bioware staple there is. And again, to go to the trouble to pander to Bioware fans in terms of voicing the main character as Male & Female and then turning around and screwing the Femsheps on Romance Options is beyond my comprehension. Are they just trapped into having to voice Femshep now? and they'd rather not mess with it. i dunno.........lol. your comment got me ranting twice now.

But this is opinion not fact, someone that loves Thane and is gay could make the same exact appeal and it would be valid.

But validity does not make it a fact.

[Naltair]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

ERJAK, whether or not one group of relationships vs another group of relationships is better is completly subjective and cannot be used as evidence to argue your case.

It was a warning against using the femshep romances in an argument for equality, as I have a very strong personal opposition to this(subjective) argument, and can't be held accountable for losing my veneer of civility.

The only argument that can be made is that there are the same exact number of romances per gender.

[Scire The Warden]

Yes, but it's still subjective as to which romances are better. What is not subjective is that each gender has an equal number of romances.

[Naltair]

I know this will surprise but I am sure there are many people that think Tali is disgusting or annoying and probably get her killed on purpose during the Suicide Mission.



They may take offense at making her the only female/female option.

[Kolaris8472]

Scire The Warden wrote...

Yes, but it's still subjective as to which romances are better. What is not subjective is that each gender has an equal number of romances.

But again, this should not be a driving factor when writing a character. Either the writer has something in mind for the character and it shouldn't be altered, or it should only be altered to please the fans - part of why I'm here now. So far it seems like the second one to me. 

[ERJAK2]

If they just put in a decent female romance option for femshep this could end. Even the people who would want to see Tali specifically wouldn't say much, and the male/Mshep people would grumble unhappily like they did after ME1.



The controversey exists because of EXCLUSION, not because of possible INCLUSION.

[Scire The Warden]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

Yes, but it's still subjective as to which romances are better. What is not subjective is that each gender has an equal number of romances.

But again, this should not be a driving factor when writing a character. Either the writer has something in mind for the character and it shouldn't be altered, or it should only be altered to please the fans - part of why I'm here now. So far it seems like the second one to me. 

Yes, but my viewpoint is that the Dev's (good writers) should be the ones in charge of character development & personality, not the fans(worse writers).  I think that it should be the first and not the second, that's where we disagree.

Note that i said character devlopment and personality, not inclusion/exclusion, so my sig cannot be used against me

Modifié par Scire The Warden, 04 février 2010 - 01:14 .

[Kolaris8472]

Actually I would have preferred the first option, but the inclusion of a Tali romance with Maleshep caused me to think it was the second.

[Naltair]

ERJAK2 wrote...

If they just put in a decent female romance option for femshep this could end. Even the people who would want to see Tali specifically wouldn't say much, and the male/Mshep people would grumble unhappily like they did after ME1.

The controversey exists because of EXCLUSION, not because of possible INCLUSION.

Again supposition, I am pretty sure these fans don't want to romance just any female they want Tali.

You don't like the choices we understand that, your opinion is not the opinion of the fans at large it is just yours.

[Garlador]

Just throwing in my two cents.

My girlfriend loves Tali. She posted a, er, "intimate" picture of her Femshep and Tali together on her deviantart account.

[Radahldo]

Scire The Warden wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Scire The Warden wrote...

Yes, but it's still subjective as to which romances are better. What is not subjective is that each gender has an equal number of romances.

But again, this should not be a driving factor when writing a character. Either the writer has something in mind for the character and it shouldn't be altered, or it should only be altered to please the fans - part of why I'm here now. So far it seems like the second one to me. 

Yes, but my viewpoint is that the Dev's (good writers) should be the ones in charge of character development & personality, not the fans(worse writers).  I think that it should be the first and not the second, that's where we disagree.

But your viewpoint comes after the forum outcry for a talimance. It's almost like you are reaping the benefits, and forming a vaguely exclusionary viewpoint after the fact.

[Naltair]

I have a question if it turns out that Tali is just heterosexual, or should I say only wants to date male Shepard, will that diminish the character in your eyes?

[Scire The Warden]

Well I haven't played Mass Effect 1, and got ME2 after seeing the football commericial. I wasn't aware that Tali was a romance because of a forum outcry, sorry.

[DaeJi]

Scire The Warden wrote...

Note that i said character devlopment and personality, not inclusion/exclusion, so my sig cannot be used against me

How does having Tali being a romance option for a female Shepard affect her character development or personality?

Naltair wrote...

I have a question if it turns out that
Tali is just heterosexual, or should I say only wants to date male
Shepard, will that diminish the character in your eyes?

No.

Modifié par DaeJi, 04 février 2010 - 01:19 .

[Naltair]

Scire The Warden wrote...

Well I haven't played Mass Effect 1, and got ME2 after seeing the football commericial. I wasn't aware that Tali was a romance because of a forum outcry, sorry.

The outcry helped, but the idea was kicked around before ME1 but dismissed because they felt her features and mask would not be that appealing.  When they saw the fan interest in her and Garrus it was a no-brainer to make it happen.  I just think people assume that they should have been fair game for both genders which I don't agree with.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

I have a question if it turns out that Tali is just heterosexual, or should I say only wants to date male Shepard, will that diminish the character in your eyes?

Diminish how? I wouldn't think any less of her. I'd perhaps think less of my Femshep and her playthrough though, since she gets less of an extremely interesting character. 

[Scire The Warden]

The same way that making Garrus/Jacob/Thane options for MaleShep affect their character development and personality. They're written to be a certain way, therefore they should be a certain way IMO. I'm not against F/F relationships, as I believe I've stated before.

EDIT:

However, if an outcry got tali into the second game, then i guess this thread is perfectly viable too.  I just didn't want fans messing with character personalities, but if that's already happened then i'm not going to further argue in this thread.

Modifié par Scire The Warden, 04 février 2010 - 01:22 .

[ERJAK2]

I'm so tired of this, all this arguing in the vain hope that someone at Bioware will go "oops better sneak a gender check removal into the next DLC" So tired of dealing with the idiots who are offended simply because I want the OPTION, so tired of playing Mass Effect with a totally depersonalized Shepard.



Without a romance, Shepard is just a gun on legs, she has no wants, no desires, no nothing that's not related to the mission. Even the little tidbits with Liara and Kelly have little to do with Shepard's wants. She's working for Liara for the same reason she works for any quest giver, and the scene with Kelly is more like her distracting Kelly from the horrible experience she had to keep her efficient.

[DaeJi]

Scire The Warden wrote...

The same way that making Garrus/Jacob/Thane options for MaleShep affect their character development and personality. They're written to be a certain way, therefore they should be a certain way IMO. I'm not against F/F relationships, as I believe I've stated before.

So who someone likes determines everything else about them? Jacob cannot still be Jacob and like guys? Tali has to only like men or she's no longer Tali? They can keep their personalities and still be bisexual.

Modifié par DaeJi, 04 février 2010 - 01:25 .