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[HAGA NAGA]

Ararara wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

Chained_Creator wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

Chained_Creator wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...
*snip*
I staked my whole Mass Effect experience on the hope that Tali would be romanceable with my Femshep. 
*snip*
Am i wrong for feeling that way?

Yes.

why?

Because, by staking your entire Mass effect experience on the romances, you have dismissed the incredible amount of work that the developers as a whole have put into this game as irrelevant and beneath your notice. You have dismissed years of dedication to the production of an amazing game as a triviality.

You are wrong for so casually dismissing the rest of the game as trivial for a small, optional portion of the game.

Your arrogance astounds me.

I mean come on, Chained Creator. i made a silly comment that obviously isn't true. think of it as a metaphor of sorts. obviously, i like the game for any number of reasons.  i was trying to express how important it was to me and went a tad overboard IF YOU TAKE IT LITERALLY.

seriously? THIS is what you're going to "dig" out and throw in my face? fine

ok, Chained Creator. I redact my statement that "I staked my whole Mass Effect experience on the hope that Tali would be romanceable with my Femshep". It was an overexaggeration on my part used to make a point, but i still love the ME games and enjoy the vast amount of content that is there beyond "Romance Options". and i mean it, ok? geez

Metaphor- a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to
which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance,
as in “A mighty fortress is our God.”

So everything you say isn't true and is a metaphor...? So we shouldn't take what you say literally, ok.

"Metaphor of sorts"

A Mighty fortress is our God
Tali is my Mass Effect Experience

If you don't get it, i don't really care.  but your post? what? did i irritate you or something? gaaaawwwwd!

[Naltair]

I am not going to lie what got me using Tali the most was her ability to do AI Hacking, from there I liked her character and spirit. It never bugged me there was nothing romantic going on, we were good friends and she had supported me and I her. When Kelly comes and says there may be something there my Shepard ran with it, and the rest is history.



But yes maybe it is projecting, it does seem like people want to analyze every single action for significance.

[wulf3n]

It seems to me the problem here isnt that Tali isnt available for femshep, just that the initial dialogue for the femshep relationship is exactly the same as the male shep, giving the impression that there is more to the relationship than what is given.

Take the line on Haestrom where Tali says "I wish shepard was here", that isn't just a best friend/family relationship, the emotion in that line, says much more than that.

[Vaenier]

Feelings are hard to quantify. Alot of people pick up on subtle emotional ques given out during talking to tali that their social upbringing tells them mean something.

And Romance doesn't mean just ****ing Tali. Its about an intimate relationship, getting to know whats deep down inside.

[this isnt my name]

Not everyone should be romanceable, thats life people are different this is no exception, why isnt everyone in the world bi, well its because some people are into the same gender others are not, and changing Tali to make her bang anything would feel cheap as hell.

[Adon 9]

Mostly I am just kind of stunned at the vehemence of the opposition to the idea of a Tali/femshep romance. Personally, when someone mentioned 'they would have everyone be bi', my answer is... well, why not? Or at least provide something tangible for those who like that kind of thing?



The reason I'm so casual about that is because I don't see the ME universe as rigid. The main variable is of course Shepard him or herself, since Shep can be male or female, paragon or renegade or somewhere in between. As such, I don't think it's completely out of line for a few variables to accomodate that. The big difference here as someone alluded to earlier when they asked how I would feel if 'Han Solo started hitting on Luke Skywalker', is to compare apples and oranges. A movie or book is not interactive -- you are a passive observer, and the story unfolds in a given way regardless of what you do. While games don't give you complete freedom (that would be impossible), they do allow us to interact with them and affect what's going on. It's not really the same thing.



Maybe it's me, but I don't really see how making one or two characters' orientations more flexible completely alters their character. It's just a single aspect, and it doesn't necessarily alter any other aspect of them.



To me in the end it's just a minor thing -- I would LIKE for my femshep to be able to romance Tali, but I'm not losing sleep over it. I just wonder why the people who don't like that idea are being so tenacious about it. How does it hurt you for a completely optional thing to be in the game that impacts your personal enjoyment not at all? Why is it that so unreasonable?

[Naltair]

wulf3n wrote...
Take the line on Haestrom where Tali says "I wish shepard was here", that isn't just a best friend/family relationship, the emotion in that line, says much more than that.

But that is your interpretation.  The defining moment of her pilgrimage was her time with Shepard, and seeing her miss having them, male or female, around is not out of character.  Let's face it, Shepard is a unique person a force to reckon with, and she was in his/her presence constantly during the one of the greatest moment in recent galactic history.

Add to that now she knows Shepard is alive and it seems fitting she would miss them.

It's tangential evidence but not very compelling.

[Chained_Creator]

wulf3n wrote...

It seems to me the problem here isnt that Tali isnt available for femshep, just that the initial dialogue for the femshep relationship is exactly the same as the male shep, giving the impression that there is more to the relationship than what is given.
Take the line on Haestrom where Tali says "I wish shepard was here", that isn't just a best friend/family relationship, the emotion in that line, says much more than that.

The emotion in that line says she knows she has a very high chance of dying very soon and Shepard was her "de facto" captain during Mass Effect 1 (Her Pilgramage and a time of galactic upheaval.) and a good (possibly best) friend of hers.

Modifié par Chained_Creator, 04 février 2010 - 02:32 .

[xtal84]

I agree with you, OP.



The majority of people in this thread have completely missed your point, and to some degree are being quite sexist. By the way, I'd just like to correct 99% of the people in this thread who keep using the word "gender." Gender has nothing to do with biology. Gender is a social construct. The proper word to use is "sex." Male and Female are not genders, they are sexes.



Back on topic, nowhere did the OP say that he/she was disappointed by not being able to **** Tali. They were disappointed by not being able to form a meaningful romance with her. It's true that of course the writers of the story can build some characters to have very strict and explicit beliefs/traits (e.g. Ashley Williams) and others that have perhaps more relaxed, open values (Liara T'Soni, Kelly Chambers). But the OP has a point: there is a fair amount of ... friendly exchanges with Tali, only to have them suddenly end. This didn't have to end in anything sexual, but it could have at least gone to a very personal level of love. Perhaps an equally fulfilling path as is offered to male Shepards, but one that ends up slightly different while allowing room to be just as meaningful, perhaps more, if the player pursues it, wishing for slightly more than "good friendship."



Of course this is in BioWare's hands, but I don't see the harm in having as many options as possible. To those here shrugging off this supposed bi-sexual lust as immature and wishful "fan-service" thinking, that is simply a narrow-minded attitude. Why does a character have to be labelled as bi-sexual? Couldn't they just be a character that was open-minded enough to "let love in," so to speak. After all, is the classic definition of love not something to the tune of "finding something, or someone, that/whom you never expected to find ... to discover immense feeling in places only faintly imagined?"



To the OP: if I took anything you said out of context, I apologize. I did my best to expand upon, what I thought, were your feelings.

[Naltair]

Adon 9 wrote...
The reason I'm so casual about that is because I don't see the ME universe as rigid. The main variable is of course Shepard him or herself, since Shep can be male or female, paragon or renegade or somewhere in between. As such, I don't think it's completely out of line for a few variables to accomodate that. The big difference here as someone alluded to earlier when they asked how I would feel if 'Han Solo started hitting on Luke Skywalker', is to compare apples and oranges. A movie or book is not interactive -- you are a passive observer, and the story unfolds in a given way regardless of what you do. While games don't give you complete freedom (that would be impossible), they do allow us to interact with them and affect what's going on. It's not really the same thing.

One problem though you are comparing the narratives and I am comparing the characters, you don't have control over the characters you meet from a personality standpoint.  That is the point of the of the ME universe to some extent.

No matter how persuasive you are you will never get TIM to agree with your choice of blowing up the base.  No matter how persuasive you are Ashley will not sleep with a female Shepard.  They have certain traits that stand firm, this is what I am alluding to, not the fact that one narrative type is passive and the other active.  Both utilize characters, and each character is interesting because they have definable traits, some change but others don't.  To present a more believable setting there needs to be gender differences for romances, that is just how the world works or it would seem odd to most people and less "real".

I am not opposed to her being bisexual if that was the intent, I just don't think it was intentionally or was abandoned long before the game was ever shipped.

Modifié par Naltair, 04 février 2010 - 02:37 .

[Naltair]

xtal84 wrote...

I agree with you, OP.

The majority of people in this thread have completely missed your point, and to some degree are being quite sexist. By the way, I'd just like to correct 99% of the people in this thread who keep using the word "gender." Gender has nothing to do with biology. Gender is a social construct. The proper word to use is "sex." Male and Female are not genders, they are sexes.

Back on topic, nowhere did the OP say that he/she was disappointed by not being able to **** Tali. They were disappointed by not being able to form a meaningful romance with her. It's true that of course the writers of the story can build some characters to have very strict and explicit beliefs/traits (e.g. Ashley Williams) and others that have perhaps more relaxed, open values (Liara T'Soni, Kelly Chambers). But the OP has a point: there is a fair amount of ... friendly exchanges with Tali, only to have them suddenly end. This didn't have to end in anything sexual, but it could have at least gone to a very personal level of love. Perhaps an equally fulfilling path as is offered to male Shepards, but one that ends up slightly different while allowing room to be just as meaningful, perhaps more, if the player pursues it, wishing for slightly more than "good friendship."

Of course this is in BioWare's hands, but I don't see the harm in having as many options as possible. To those here shrugging off this supposed bi-sexual lust as immature and wishful "fan-service" thinking, that is simply a narrow-minded attitude. Why does a character have to be labelled as bi-sexual? Couldn't they just be a character that was open-minded enough to "let love in," so to speak. After all, is the classic definition of love not something to the tune of "finding something, or someone, that/whom you never expected to find ... to discover immense feeling in places only faintly imagined?"

To the OP: if I took anything you said out of context, I apologize. I did my best to expand upon, what I thought, were your feelings.

Then you already have that as exists in the game, the OP wants to "have sex" in the relationship and feels somehow cheated because they feel they were led on.  The problem is not the intimacy the problem to me seems to be they feel that there is something left out or taken out.  She is plenty intimate by wanted to link suits but some are taking this to be purely sexual when it just might be purely platonic.

[wulf3n]

Naltair wrote...
But that is your interpretation.

Exactly, then can you blame someone for thinking Tali had feelings for a shepard of either sex? Every Shepard is effectively a different dimension, why is so traumatizing to some, that Tali is bi in another dimension? Just because she's bi in one players game, doesnt have to mean she's bi in every.

[Naltair]

I would like to know how we are being sexist, if anything the implication that she must be bisexual seems more sexist than the implication that there is just not enough evidence for that implication.



Meaning people are saying that certain things she says and does make her or allude to her being attracted to both genders.



All I am saying is that the play experience is pretty explicit that this is not the case and just people projecting their feelings. Could it change in ME3, of course, but I am not sure why they would go to the trouble add her as another romance for a small subsection when they can introduce new characters who may fit that bill much better.

[Naltair]

wulf3n wrote...

Naltair wrote...
But that is your interpretation.

Exactly, then can you blame someone for thinking Tali had feelings for a shepard of either sex? Every Shepard is effectively a different dimension, why is so traumatizing to some, that Tali is bi in another dimension? Just because she's bi in one players game, doesnt have to mean she's bi in every.

It's not traumatizing at all, I can pretend Ashley is gay or bi all I want, but she will never actually swing that way for my Shepard.  Or to better put it, the game will not legitimately recognize that relationship.

[KateKane]

OK, so a pretty common suggestion is for all LI's to be bi/have their orientation determined by whether or not Shepard flirts with them. Many feel that this would weaken the characters as a whole. A perfectly valid opinion.

Hang on.

In the opening of ME1, you determine Shepard's background and service history. Regardless of your combination of spacer/colonist/earthborn+war hero/sole survivor/ruthless, Anderson will always believe that you are the only kind of person who can defend the galaxy. This means that you, as a player, are capable of effecting slight variation in Anderson's personality without doing so within the context of the story. Is his character weakened beacause of it?

[Naltair]

KateKane wrote...

OK, so a pretty common suggestion is for all LI's to be bi/have their orientation determined by whether or not Shepard flirts with them. Many feel that this would weaken the characters as a whole. A perfectly valid opinion.

Hang on.

In the opening of ME1, you determine Shepard's background and service history. Regardless of your combination of spacer/colonist/earthborn+war hero/sole survivor/ruthless, Anderson will always believe that you are the only kind of person who can defend the galaxy. This means that you, as a player, are capable of effecting slight variation in Anderson's personality without doing so within the context of the story. Is his character weakened beacause of it?

Oh my god you just pointed out the ultimate truth.

But no your example does not hold water, Anderson is meant to be your mentor and a positive force in your character's life.  It is expected that he will like you and support you regardless.

I should also add you are not affecting his personality just his initial opinion of you which is always positive.

Modifié par Naltair, 04 février 2010 - 02:46 .

[wulf3n]

Naltair wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Naltair wrote...
But that is your interpretation.

Exactly, then can you blame someone for thinking Tali had feelings for a shepard of either sex? Every Shepard is effectively a different dimension, why is so traumatizing to some, that Tali is bi in another dimension? Just because she's bi in one players game, doesnt have to mean she's bi in every.

It's not traumatizing at all, I can pretend Ashley is gay or bi all I want, but she will never actually swing that way for my Shepard.  Or to better put it, the game will not legitimately recognize that relationship.

Ok for arguments sake lets say your a male shep, and you wanna romance Tali. Throughout the whole game you get the vibe that she likes you (intentionaly or not) then all of a sudden, nothing happens, no more character progression, no more development of the relationship...and all this because Tali only likes girls! wouldnt that ****** you off? Maybe you were also one of the vocal ppl petitioning to get Tali as a love interest, and feel slightly ripped off because of it.

[AngryTigerP]

Naltair wrote...

KateKane wrote...

OK, so a pretty common suggestion is for all LI's to be bi/have their orientation determined by whether or not Shepard flirts with them. Many feel that this would weaken the characters as a whole. A perfectly valid opinion.

Hang on.

In the opening of ME1, you determine Shepard's background and service history. Regardless of your combination of spacer/colonist/earthborn+war hero/sole survivor/ruthless, Anderson will always believe that you are the only kind of person who can defend the galaxy. This means that you, as a player, are capable of effecting slight variation in Anderson's personality without doing so within the context of the story. Is his character weakened beacause of it?

Oh my god you just pointed out the ultimate truth.

But no your example does not hold water, Anderson is meant to be your mentor and a positive force in your character's life.  It is expected that he will like you and support you regardless.

I should also add you are not affecting his personality just his initial opinion of you which is always positive.

No, it's obviously Anderson coming onto the young piece of man-meat (or the hot young lady) that is Commander Shepard.

It's in the way he says "The ONLY person".

[Chained_Creator]

KateKane wrote...

OK, so a pretty common suggestion is for all LI's to be bi/have their orientation determined by whether or not Shepard flirts with them. Many feel that this would weaken the characters as a whole. A perfectly valid opinion.

Hang on.

In the opening of ME1, you determine Shepard's background and service history. Regardless of your combination of spacer/colonist/earthborn+war hero/sole survivor/ruthless, Anderson will always believe that you are the only kind of person who can defend the galaxy. This means that you, as a player, are capable of effecting slight variation in Anderson's personality without doing so within the context of the story. Is his character weakened beacause of it?

Inevitable and irrelevant conclusion. Shepard will always be recommended, no matter what sort of person he or she is. Anderson remains the same.

[wulf3n]

AngryTigerP wrote...

No, it's obviously Anderson coming onto the young piece of man-meat (or the hot young lady) that is Commander Shepard.

It's in the way he says "The ONLY person".

maybe, he does have a photo of kaiden on his desk.

[Naltair]

wulf3n wrote...

Ok for arguments sake lets say your a male shep, and you wanna romance Tali. Throughout the whole game you get the vibe that she likes you (intentionaly or not) then all of a sudden, nothing happens, no more character progression, no more development of the relationship...and all this because Tali only likes girls! wouldnt that ****** you off? Maybe you were also one of the vocal ppl petitioning to get Tali as a love interest, and feel slightly ripped off because of it.

Not really it would seem odd but there are other options and I have other choices.  I was never vocal about the Tali mance and didn't even know there was such a thing till recently right before ME2 shipped.  I was open to the idea and felt she was an endearing character and glad to see her back but overall it was the quality of her character and not the ability to get into her pants that tipped it for me.

I will admit as far as her romance compared to Liara in ME1, hers is far superior to me in terms of endearment and sweetness.

But again my main focus was finishing with no fatalities.

[AngryTigerP]

wulf3n wrote...

Naltair wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Naltair wrote...
But that is your interpretation.

Exactly, then can you blame someone for thinking Tali had feelings for a shepard of either sex? Every Shepard is effectively a different dimension, why is so traumatizing to some, that Tali is bi in another dimension? Just because she's bi in one players game, doesnt have to mean she's bi in every.

It's not traumatizing at all, I can pretend Ashley is gay or bi all I want, but she will never actually swing that way for my Shepard.  Or to better put it, the game will not legitimately recognize that relationship.

Ok for arguments sake lets say your a male shep, and you wanna romance Tali. Throughout the whole game you get the vibe that she likes you (intentionaly or not) then all of a sudden, nothing happens, no more character progression, no more development of the relationship...and all this because Tali only likes girls! wouldnt that ****** you off? Maybe you were also one of the vocal ppl petitioning to get Tali as a love interest, and feel slightly ripped off because of it.

And do you think this never occurs in real life, either?

A lesbian woman has never 'felt' something from a straight woman only to find that she doesn't really feel that way? Or the same for a gay man attracted to a straight one? All the signals were there, right? So they thought.

I love how you seem to think there MUST be reciprocation because you feel that your Shepard is homosexual. Well, that's fine, more power to him/her, but obviously his/her attempts to attract [character] failed because [character] does not reciprocate.

To put it another way, you can choose not to pursue Tali's romance, and likely will, if you are role-playing as a gay Maleshep. Does that mean Tali isn't still getting signals from you? No, Kelly reveals that she does no matter what. Such is the case when YOU are the one with the feelings, and you're targeting an unreceptive party.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 04 février 2010 - 02:51 .

[Naltair]

AngryTigerP wrote...
To put it another way, you can choose not to pursue Tali's romance, and likely will, if you are role-playing as a gay Maleshep. Does that mean Tali isn't still getting signals from you? No, Kelly reveals that she does no matter what. Such is the case when YOU are the one with the feelings, and you're targeting an unreceptive party.

Good point, very perceptive, she could be feeding off false signals from your Shepard as well, male in this case, who have no intention of being with her.

[wulf3n]

AngryTigerP wrote...

And do you think this never occurs in real life, either?

A lesbian woman has never 'felt' something from a straight woman only to find that she doesn't really feel that way? Or the same for a gay man attracted to a straight one? All the signals were there, right? So they thought.

I love how you seem to think there MUST be reciprocation because you feel that your Shepard is homosexual. Well, that's fine, more power to him/her, but obviously his/her attempts to attract [character] failed because [character] does not reciprocate.

To put it another way, you can choose not to pursue Tali's romance, and likely will, if you are role-playing as a gay Maleshep. Does that mean Tali isn't still getting signals from you? No, Kelly reveals that she does no matter what. Such is the case when YOU are the one with the feelings, and you're targeting an unreceptive party.

Never said it doesn't however do we really play games to "Simulate" real life. when i play shep hes so leet, no one can reject u...NO ONE!
I play games to do things i cant do in real life, and bioware are usually good at catering to every option you could possibly want to some degree, take a look at DA:O, it was bioware who set the bar,I'm just wondering why ME2 fell below in this regard

[Naltair]

As Shepard you do a ton of things you can't do in the real world, but I am glad that some things are even beyond his/her control.

Modifié par Naltair, 04 février 2010 - 02:59 .