732 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

Naltair wrote...

As Shepard you do a ton of things you can't do in the real world, but I am glad that some things are even beyond his/her control.

The question remains, would tali as a femshep li, going to effect your game enough to not include it?

[Naltair]

It has no effect on my personal game, it has a large effect on the status of other characters and their motivations in the overall scheme of everyone's game. If they wanted it they should have done it before launch adding it afterwards is just dumb I am sorry. Plus they won't do that without doing something for Garrus or another character it's just dumb to make a change like that after the fact without an equal option for someone else.

Then if you do that someone may be pissed that they don't like Tali and they want Miranda or Ashley... or they want Jacob or Thane. It's a lose lose situation story wise and ultimately could eliminate the idea of a gender/sex choice completely.

Modifié par Naltair, 04 février 2010 - 03:06 .

[Naltair]

People are not seeing the big picture here just their specific situation and how it would improve their personal experience without looking at the larger implications of such an innocuous change...

[wulf3n]

yeah it is too late to change it now, not arguing over that, just curious as to why bioware didn't include it as an option from the beginning.



also wanna know how my sheps choices, affect other peoples game?

[Naltair]

wulf3n wrote...

yeah it is too late to change it now, not arguing over that, just curious as to why bioware didn't include it as an option from the beginning.

also wanna know how my sheps choices, affect other peoples game?

They don't, I am talking about the change to a core character and how it would mean changing other cpre characters for equality since this change is one for equality not addition.  Both genders/sex have the same amount of relationships to explore, adding one more to either side would need for them to make room for another.  But how do you choose?

What if they decide it was a mistake but don't make Tali the "obvious" female/female choice, are they still wrong?  This group would not be satisfied and another group would.  The only equitable way to end these dumb arguments is to make them all bi, and that is sloppy writing at it's finest.

[wulf3n]

Naltair wrote...
What if they decide it was a mistake but don't make Tali the "obvious" female/female choice, are they still wrong?  This group would not be satisfied and another group would.  The only equitable way to end these dumb arguments is to make them all bi, and that is sloppy writing at it's finest.

meh, im all out of arguments.

[Heavensrun]

Naltair wrote...

People are not seeing the big picture here just their specific situation and how it would improve their personal experience without looking at the larger implications of such an innocuous change...

(shrug)  Adding another character to the roster will also change the dynamic of the overall story in some ways, but nobody's complaining about the unreleased DLC character.

Any DLC that is added that changes the course of the storyline in any way will to -some- extent cause changes to the scope of the world and the interactions of the characters.

Tali being a femshep romance doesn't change anything in the way she interacts with the plot or your shepard, until you get to the romance.  There's no line in the game where she asserts that she's straight that would lead to a continuity issue.  She isn't defined as straight.

She also isn't defined as bisexual or gay.

If Bioware added her as a femshep love interest, it would not constitute a retcon, or change who she is, at present, it would just better -define- who she is, by showing us an aspect of her that isn't there.

Similarly, if they added a line where she apologizes to a flirty femshep and says she isn't interested in females, it would not constitute a retcon, or change who she is.  It would better define who she is.

I'd be disappointed by the latter, but I wouldn't complain that they "changed her personality" to suit the people who thought she should be straight.

[Naltair]

How does her having a bisexual relationship better define her?  I am just wondering why this aspect needs to be better defined then it is in game?

You say Tali this and Tali this, I am looking at insert character's name here and extending that to the rest of the cast.  It has far larger implications then just making a code switch.  People seem to fail to recognize that.

Modifié par Naltair, 04 février 2010 - 03:22 .

[wulf3n]

Naltair wrote...

How does her having a bisexual relationship better define her?

i wouldnt say it would better define her, it would just allow everyone that wanted to develop a deeper relationship with her, rather than being cut off before it happened, like with the whole suit sharing thing.

edit: her bisexual doesn't even change her, it justs adds the dialogue option for femsheps, the only thing different between femshep and maleshep playthroughs is the final outcome, and kellys observation.

Modifié par wulf3n, 04 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...
What if they decide it was a mistake but don't make Tali the "obvious" female/female choice, are they still wrong?  This group would not be satisfied and another group would.  The only equitable way to end these dumb arguments is to make them all bi, and that is sloppy writing at it's finest.

To appease everyone, yes, I suppose that's what they'd have to do. They shouldn't. 

To appease some people while still having a consistent character? It makes more sense to have Tali/Femshep than it does for the relationship to end up the way it does if there will never be any continuation/closure to it. 

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

How does her having a bisexual relationship better define her?  I am just wondering why this aspect needs to be better defined then it is in game?

To me it wouldn't necessarily. They need to either say she still cares for female Shephard or she doesn't, so far they haven't clarified. That clarification is what would better define her character, as right now it appears she cares more about greasing the engines. 

[Naltair]

But the suit sharing thing may be how far she wants to go, maybe she just wants to tell female Shepherd I trust you completely and you are the dearest friend I ever had. That does not mean I now must bone you.



Maybe that is all there is.



Suit Sharing =/ romantic leanings.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...
What if they decide it was a mistake but don't make Tali the "obvious" female/female choice, are they still wrong?  This group would not be satisfied and another group would.  The only equitable way to end these dumb arguments is to make them all bi, and that is sloppy writing at it's finest.

To appease everyone, yes, I suppose that's what they'd have to do. They shouldn't. 

To appease some people while still having a consistent character? It makes more sense to have Tali/Femshep than it does for the relationship to end up the way it does if there will never be any continuation/closure to it. 

Anyone on these forums can make that argument for any current LI in the game, it's all perspective and what we want to read into things.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
To me it wouldn't necessarily. They need to either say she still cares for female Shephard or she doesn't, so far they haven't clarified. That clarification is what would better define her character, as right now it appears she cares more about greasing the engines. 

If she suggests linking suits then it is obviously a sign of closeness, given the limitation of the conversation engine and the way it seems constructed, there are only so many options before you run out.  I agree maybe she leaves you guys hanging but it seems to be intentional on the writers part to imply a close platonic relationship.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
To me it wouldn't necessarily. They need to either say she still cares for female Shephard or she doesn't, so far they haven't clarified. That clarification is what would better define her character, as right now it appears she cares more about greasing the engines. 

If she suggests linking suits then it is obviously a sign of closeness, given the limitation of the conversation engine and the way it seems constructed, there are only so many options before you run out.  I agree maybe she leaves you guys hanging but it seems to be intentional on the writers part to imply a close platonic relationship.

Again, a close platonic relationship with no further development and stemming from the same conversation, dialog, and hints that lead to an intimate relationship with another alien. 

[Naltair]

But there really isn't any more development for any other character once you reach a certain point so it is consistent. I am not saying it is right but consistent. I wanted to have a platonic relationship with Jack and show her I would be there for her, but the only way to progress as a male was to do the romance path.

I was hoping for something along the lines of Morrigan from DA:O but that was not there. I think that was a letdown but it was what it was. This is no different you just want there to be something else when there may be nothing.

And no I do not count modding it for her to romance female Shepard as any kind of real evidence.

Modifié par Naltair, 04 février 2010 - 03:36 .

[Vikotoru]

Naltair wrote...
Suit Sharing =/ romantic leanings.

This

For those wanting the lesbian talimance the only thing you can do is to mod the game, personally I'm very happy with my heteromance and being close friends with my femshep (hell! many people was already thinking a month ago that the talimance was impossible in ME2)

For those trying to imagine, here is a modded screenshot
img96.imageshack.us/img96/4937/masseffect2201002040427.jpg

And the final love scene with a femshep
www.youtube.com/watch

(Doing right now the Garrus M/M by popular request)

[mrs_anomaly]

Ok I'm a woman IRL and I play femShep mostly. My femShep enjoys her male LI choices (with the exception of Jacob) which means, I myself, the player enjoy them. I'm straight IRL and married heterosexually. I have no issue whatsoever with gay love or bisexuality but no thanks to Liara or Tali for myself.

Personally one thing no one ever seems to think about regarding Tali while we're on the subject is the smell.

As in; they are constantly in a damned suit. How do they cleanse? I'm just grossed out by that. And imagine, idk about humidity controls in a Quarian suit, but yuck on the wrinkled prune factor. Anyway a whole bunch of not wanting to get into that ..physically even if it was a male Quarian...

Although the captain that was protecting Tali on the planet you recruit her on..he sounded kind of nice LOL. He might be ok once you dried and cleaned him lol.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...
I was hoping for something along the lines of Morrigan from DA:O but that was not there. I think that was a letdown but it was what it was. This is no different you just want there to be something else when there may be nothing.
.

Yep, that is true but its a nothing that doesn't make any sense. 

A closer example would be if Femsheps could have further conversations with Jack establishing that platonic support, but Male Shephards couldn't get it due to how other people play the game, and having nothing to do with the character in question. 

[Heavensrun]

Naltair wrote...

How does her having a bisexual relationship better define her?  I am just wondering why this aspect needs to be better defined then it is in game?

You say Tali this and Tali this, I am looking at insert character's name here and extending that to the rest of the cast.  It has far larger implications then just making a code switch.  People seem to fail to recognize that.

(shrug)  At the moment, we have no information about Tali's sexual prefference, beyond she is attracted to males.  (or at least one male)  If we know she is attracted to females, that gives us more information than we had.  If we know that she is -not- attracted to females, that gives us more information than we had.  My point is, that defining her sexual prefference does not -change- her unless her prefference was already well defined, which it isn't.

And yeah, you could expand what I'm saying to the rest of the cast (except maybe Ash?  I seem to remember her saying she specifically wasn't into other women at some point.)  But your argument, honestly, is a little too slippery slope for me to accept.  Yeah, you can apply this logic to other characters.  So what?  That doesn't mean the logic is invalid for Tali, just that it can also apply to other, similar situations.

Personally, I wish Tali was available as a female romance, because honestly, I don't really like the male shep VA, and once I've played through a Bioware game with a character of one gender, I have a hard time "redefining" the role.  Shepard is, to me, a dark skinned woman, possibly middle eastern decent, with bobbed black hair and bright green eyes.  Tali being a single-gendered romance option basically means, for me, that she isn't an option at all, because I'll probably never play this game as a male.

[Naltair]

Heavensrun wrote...
Personally, I wish Tali was available as a female romance, because honestly, I don't really like the male shep VA, and once I've played through a Bioware game with a character of one gender, I have a hard time "redefining" the role.  Shepard is, to me, a dark skinned woman, possibly middle eastern decent, with bobbed black hair and bright green eyes.  Tali being a single-gendered romance option basically means, for me, that she isn't an option at all, because I'll probably never play this game as a male.

Slippery slope it may be this is where we are.  As an added point if they decide to make it more obvious then it already is, will it really change anything?  It won't and it does not have to always be spelled out in black and white what orientation every character is, we infer that from the cues in the game.  SOMETIMES we infer incorrectly, and this may be the case on either side.

If they decide in a patch that it was always supposed to be then so be it, but I doubt it since they had plenty of time to fix this "glitch".  I just think it won't happen, everyone , that cares about same sex relationships, has their personal favorite character that would be "enhanced" by available to both genders.  There is no win-win situation here without turning this game into some odd bisexual dating sim.

Modifié par Naltair, 04 février 2010 - 03:46 .

[Saskuatch]

Heavensrun wrote...

Naltair wrote...

How does her having a bisexual relationship better define her?  I am just wondering why this aspect needs to be better defined then it is in game?

You say Tali this and Tali this, I am looking at insert character's name here and extending that to the rest of the cast.  It has far larger implications then just making a code switch.  People seem to fail to recognize that.

(shrug)  At the moment, we have no information about Tali's sexual prefference, beyond she is attracted to males.  (or at least one male)  If we know she is attracted to females, that gives us more information than we had.  If we know that she is -not- attracted to females, that gives us more information than we had.  My point is, that defining her sexual prefference does not -change- her unless her prefference was already well defined, which it isn't.

And yeah, you could expand what I'm saying to the rest of the cast (except maybe Ash?  I seem to remember her saying she specifically wasn't into other women at some point.)  But your argument, honestly, is a little too slippery slope for me to accept.  Yeah, you can apply this logic to other characters.  So what?  That doesn't mean the logic is invalid for Tali, just that it can also apply to other, similar situations.

Personally, I wish Tali was available as a female romance, because honestly, I don't really like the male shep VA, and once I've played through a Bioware game with a character of one gender, I have a hard time "redefining" the role.  Shepard is, to me, a dark skinned woman, possibly middle eastern decent, with bobbed black hair and bright green eyes.  Tali being a single-gendered romance option basically means, for me, that she isn't an option at all, because I'll probably never play this game as a male.

don't bother with this  naltair guy all he does is post his idiotic comments about Tali , the same posts over and over again in every Tali thread.

[Naltair]

I know I am an idiotic poster, I must not be anywhere near as intelligent as the rest of this posting populace, I am sorry if I don't agree with you.

Modifié par Naltair, 04 février 2010 - 03:47 .

[HAGA NAGA]

wulf3n wrote...

Naltair wrote...

As Shepard you do a ton of things you can't do in the real world, but I am glad that some things are even beyond his/her control.

The question remains, would tali as a femshep li, going to effect your game enough to not include it?

NO. it wouldn't affect anyone elses experience whatsoever. it's just that people like Naltair, and AngryTigger for whatever reason want to stamp out something that someone else wants. it's beyond sociopathic because they have no "real" interest in preventing Tali from being romanced by Femshep, i think it's just a good ole case of wanting to "ruin people's good time". actually in Angrytigger's case i think he might have some serious homophobic tendencies as evidenced in his crazed rants. i don't know for sure, but whatever the case it's silly that they would invest this much effort into something that NO! would not affect them in any way whatsoever, but that others could potential benefit from greatly.

they're jerks. plain and simple.

[Naltair]

I am arguing in the case of character and story integrity, you just want what you want, and damn the rest. I am trying to argue for equality, you just have your own self interest to promote and further your idea of what a specific character should be with no recourse or care for how it could impact design changes in the future.