732 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

AngryTigerP wrote...
As was said earlier, if Kelly Chambers is so capable of detecting romantic rumblings among the crew... why does she mention Tali seeming attracted to Shepard ONLY when you are playing as a MALE character? Why wouldn't she say anything if you were a female character? QUITE clear -- Tali's character is not homosexual or bisexual.

That's really where the discussion should end.

uhhhh, ok how to word this carefully...They're all just characters designed to take us along a journey, that bioware is writing. So why do i as a maleshep get options that a femshep doesn't?

if a character is a love interest its because bioware wanted you to experience strong emotions with those characters, seems kinda discrminitory that you have to be a certain gender to experience those options.

Modifié par wulf3n, 04 février 2010 - 05:30 .

[AngryTigerP]

ERJAK2 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

I'm going to ignore the logical points you made and instead try to destroy your credibility with accusations of prejudice

Fixed.

Good game, everybody, good game.

Whether your points have logic or not is utterly inconsequential, this thread got your attention because you have a fundamental issue with Tali being a female romance character. That's fine. However, your vitriol over  our desire to see her as a female LI CANNOT rationally be explained by a dislike of character changes. Either you're prejudiced or you're a little crazy.

If you can point out a thread begging for a Jack f/f, or a Thane m/m -- and more specifically, threads that actually go so far as to suggest DLC to change the game to add such relations -- I will gladly post there, as well. Just as I have in the Samara threads (and gotten quite a bit of heat) because I had the audacity to suggest that a woman of virtue being unromanceable was a good thing.

[AngryTigerP]

wulf3n wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
As was said earlier, if Kelly Chambers is so capable of detecting romantic rumblings among the crew... why does she mention Tali seeming attracted to Shepard ONLY when you are playing as a MALE character? Why wouldn't she say anything if you were a female character? QUITE clear -- Tali's character is not homosexual or bisexual.

That's really where the discussion should end.

uhhhh, ok how to word this carefully...They're all just characters designed to take us along a journey, that bioware is writing. So why do i as a maleshep get options that a femshep doesn't?

if a character is a love interest its because bioware wanted you to experience strong emotions with those characters, seems kinda discrminitory that you have to be a certain gender to experience those options.

If you are a gay man or lesbian woman in real life, would you get pissed if a straight person refuses your advances and call them a homophobe for not feeling and/or being oriented the way you are? If you would, then yes, your point is valid.

[rage-monk]

AngryTigerP wrote...

(...)
Your lesbian Commander Shepard character made advances at the character of Tali Zorah Vas'Normandy. Tali Zorah did not respond to your advances. Therefore, Tali is not attracted to you. Get over yourself.
(...)

Actually it rather feels like FemShep rejects her. You could argue that homosexuality is kept at arms length in the game. Sure, there are the Asari and Kelly. But the former are officially monogendered, the latter loves people for their character, not gender (or race). She doesn't like Shepard because of being a woman.

[Naltair]

wulf3n wrote...
uhhhh, ok how to word this carefully...They're all just characters designed to take us along a journey, that bioware is writing. So why do i as a maleshep get options that a femshep doesn't?

if a character is a love interest its because bioware wanted you to experience strong emotions with those characters, seems kinda discrminitory that you have to be a certain gender to experience those options.

This does not make any sense, it's a story with choices, certain choices should bar other choices from existing.

If I kill the council, they should not also be alive so I can experience that as well, they are dead.  If I kill Wrex, then he should stay dead not be alive so I can experience that.  They are choices some like gender/sex choice preclude who you can be intimate and who you cannot be intimate with.

Deal with it.

[AngryTigerP]

rage-monk wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

(...)
Your lesbian Commander Shepard character made advances at the character of Tali Zorah Vas'Normandy. Tali Zorah did not respond to your advances. Therefore, Tali is not attracted to you. Get over yourself.
(...)

Actually it rather feels like FemShep rejects her. You could argue that homosexuality is kept at arms length in the game. Sure, there are the Asari and Kelly. But the former are officially monogendered, the latter loves people for their character, not gender (or race). She doesn't like Shepard because of being a woman.

Wait.... please elaborate.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 04 février 2010 - 05:33 .

[Naltair]

AngryTigerP wrote...
If you can point out a thread begging for a Jack f/f, or a Thane m/m -- and more specifically, threads that actually go so far as to suggest DLC to change the game to add such relations -- I will gladly post there, as well. Just as I have in the Samara threads (and gotten quite a bit of heat) because I had the audacity to suggest that a woman of virtue being unromanceable was a good thing.

I have to agree with Tiger this isn't just about Tali.

[KateKane]

AngryTigerP wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
As was said earlier, if Kelly Chambers is so capable of detecting romantic rumblings among the crew... why does she mention Tali seeming attracted to Shepard ONLY when you are playing as a MALE character? Why wouldn't she say anything if you were a female character? QUITE clear -- Tali's character is not homosexual or bisexual.

That's really where the discussion should end.

uhhhh, ok how to word this carefully...They're all just characters designed to take us along a journey, that bioware is writing. So why do i as a maleshep get options that a femshep doesn't?

if a character is a love interest its because bioware wanted you to experience strong emotions with those characters, seems kinda discrminitory that you have to be a certain gender to experience those options.

If you are a gay man or lesbian woman in real life, would you get pissed if a straight person refuses your advances and call them a homophobe for not feeling and/or being oriented the way you are? If you would, then yes, your point is valid.

But the key difference between real life and Mass Effect is that Mass Effect is a role playing game and real life is real life and not a game at all.

[ERJAK2]

AngryTigerP wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

I'm going to ignore the logical points you made and instead try to destroy your credibility with accusations of prejudice

Fixed.

Good game, everybody, good game.

Whether your points have logic or not is utterly inconsequential, this thread got your attention because you have a fundamental issue with Tali being a female romance character. That's fine. However, your vitriol over  our desire to see her as a female LI CANNOT rationally be explained by a dislike of character changes. Either you're prejudiced or you're a little crazy.

If you can point out a thread begging for a Jack f/f, or a Thane m/m -- and more specifically, threads that actually go so far as to suggest DLC to change the game to add such relations -- I will gladly post there, as well. Just as I have in the Samara threads (and gotten quite a bit of heat) because I had the audacity to suggest that a woman of virtue being unromanceable was a good thing.

You missed the point, and oddly enough confirmed the prejudice thing. Huh.

I never thought Samara should be a romance option either, if it makes you feel better.

The "audacity"  is more likely a page long breakdown of why every want and desire they had for their characters in their games, they pay their money for is wrong and stupid. You make less friends than I did back when I just used to respond with F*** you.

[skyferret]

I think we need to remember that this is the Internet, folks.

[Naltair]

But Mass effect does it best to try and present real people and real situations not fantasies. It's not a choose your own romantic adventure. It's a space action story with interesting characters who you interact with and deal with as they come. Some will like you, some will hate you, and some may not return the feelings you have for them.



That is the draw of the story.

[rage-monk]

AngryTigerP wrote...

If you are a gay man or lesbian woman in real life, would you get pissed if a straight person refuses your advances and call them a homophobe for not feeling and/or being oriented the way you are? If you would, then yes, your point is valid.

I'm a straight man, occasionally getting pissed because of rejections from straight women. So why shouldn't homosexuals?

It seems like we need a homosexuality-thread, eh?

[wulf3n]

AngryTigerP wrote...

If you are a gay man or lesbian woman in real life, would you get pissed if a straight person refuses your advances and call them a homophobe for not feeling and/or being oriented the way you are? If you would, then yes, your point is valid.

ok, you missed my point.

i think, that if bioware wrote the dialogue for a romantic option, the gender of the shepard seems kinda irrelevent. Thier character is still technically the same.

[Naltair]

No one likes rejection I guess even with digital polygons.

[ERJAK2]

Naltair wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
If you can point out a thread begging for a Jack f/f, or a Thane m/m -- and more specifically, threads that actually go so far as to suggest DLC to change the game to add such relations -- I will gladly post there, as well. Just as I have in the Samara threads (and gotten quite a bit of heat) because I had the audacity to suggest that a woman of virtue being unromanceable was a good thing.

I have to agree with Tiger this isn't just about Tali.

I agree too, I also believe that these discussions would not happen if there had just been a female LI for femshep. Beyond that, he is prejudiced and is not the first person to blast these threads. None of the other ones had quite the amount of free time or the determination to type those walls of text. So, gotta respect his enthusiasm.

Fanaticism, whatever.

[AngryTigerP]

ERJAK2 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

I'm going to ignore the logical points you made and instead try to destroy your credibility with accusations of prejudice

Fixed.

Good game, everybody, good game.

Whether your points have logic or not is utterly inconsequential, this thread got your attention because you have a fundamental issue with Tali being a female romance character. That's fine. However, your vitriol over  our desire to see her as a female LI CANNOT rationally be explained by a dislike of character changes. Either you're prejudiced or you're a little crazy.

If you can point out a thread begging for a Jack f/f, or a Thane m/m -- and more specifically, threads that actually go so far as to suggest DLC to change the game to add such relations -- I will gladly post there, as well. Just as I have in the Samara threads (and gotten quite a bit of heat) because I had the audacity to suggest that a woman of virtue being unromanceable was a good thing.

You missed the point, and oddly enough confirmed the prejudice thing. Huh.

I never thought Samara should be a romance option either, if it makes you feel better.

The "audacity"  is more likely a page long breakdown of why every want and desire they had for their characters in their games, they pay their money for is wrong and stupid. You make less friends than I did back when I just used to respond with F*** you.

No, it isn't prejudice whatsoever. It is accepting that the character of Jack is a heterosexual one (she actually DOES shoot down a lesbian Shepard coming onto her), that Thane is also straight, and that Samara doesn't want a physical romance. You are unable to accept such a fact.

If this were a thread requesting a gay character be changed to be bi or straight, I WOULD BE JUST AS VEHEMENT. You consistently ignore that I have said this multiple times. I am opposed to changing something like orientation so arbitrarily. I am NOT opposed to same-sex relationships that already exist in-game.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 04 février 2010 - 05:38 .

[wulf3n]

Naltair wrote...

But Mass effect does it best to try and present real people and real situations not fantasies.

lol, are we playing the same game? Mass Effect does everything it can to create the ultimate fantasy.

[Naltair]

wulf3n wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

If you are a gay man or lesbian woman in real life, would you get pissed if a straight person refuses your advances and call them a homophobe for not feeling and/or being oriented the way you are? If you would, then yes, your point is valid.

ok, you missed my point.

i think, that if bioware wrote the dialogue for a romantic option, the gender of the shepard seems kinda irrelevent. Thier character is still technically the same.

But it's not any serious writer will tell you that.  They are not the same character even if it seems like a small change.

You change much of the social context of that character.  I am not sure how else to explain it.  Like Dumbledore, him being gay really does not change much "realistically" but it changes how many perceive that character.  It may be purely social in that context but there is a change and it affects the story by association.

Again I am not against the notion but if it isn't there, then maybe it isn't there.  Or maybe BioWare just needed to spell it out better but I doubt that would stop the pining.

[KateKane]

AngryTigerP wrote...

No, it isn't prejudice whatsoever. It is accepting that the character of Jack is a heterosexual one (she actually DOES shoot down a lesbian Shepard coming onto her), that Thane is also straight, and that Samara doesn't want a physical romance. You are unable to accept such a fact.

If this were a thread requesting a gay character be changed to be bi or straight, I WOULD BE JUST AS VEHEMENT. You consistently ignore that I have said this multiple times. I am opposed to changing something like orientation so arbitrarily. I am NOT opposed to same-sex relationships that already exist in-game.

But the characters' orientations are arbitrary. If they wern't then the homosexual romances for ME1 would never have been recorded.

Modifié par KateKane, 04 février 2010 - 05:42 .

[tausra]

Would I have liked Tali to be a LI for both genders? Yes, but in the same breath it didn't ruin the game for me. The lack of viable gay and lesbian romances, save for a species without a gender that appears female, is pretty upsetting. Then they take Jack, who is obviously bisexual (she states it in game), and make her a Male only LI. I don't want the story to be shifted and reversed just for fairness but kust a single gay and lesbian romance option wouldn't obliterate the universe.

[Novacain999]

AngryTigerP wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

I'm going to ignore the logical points you made and instead try to destroy your credibility with accusations of prejudice

Fixed.

Good game, everybody, good game.

Whether your points have logic or not is utterly inconsequential, this thread got your attention because you have a fundamental issue with Tali being a female romance character. That's fine. However, your vitriol over  our desire to see her as a female LI CANNOT rationally be explained by a dislike of character changes. Either you're prejudiced or you're a little crazy.

If you can point out a thread begging for a Jack f/f, or a Thane m/m -- and more specifically, threads that actually go so far as to suggest DLC to change the game to add such relations -- I will gladly post there, as well.

You state this and don't even seem to realize that there is a reason why this thread specifically about Tali exists, and is at 23 pages, but not for Jack or Thane? It's because there are obviously a lot of people that thought there was chemistry between a female Shepard, much more so then Thane and a Male Shep, or Jack and a femshep.

And seriously, god forbid fans throw out ideas of things they'd like to see in the game. If they made the DLC (which has a 99% odds of not happening), don't buy it. Jeez.

[Naltair]

wulf3n wrote...

Naltair wrote...

But Mass effect does it best to try and present real people and real situations not fantasies.

lol, are we playing the same game? Mass Effect does everything it can to create the ultimate fantasy.

We are playing the same game, where characters have emotions, motivations, and their own goals.  You can totally screw up Tali's loyalty mission by telling the truth, by your logic you should be able to tell the truth and still be happy times with her.

Modifié par Naltair, 04 février 2010 - 05:44 .

[AngryTigerP]

KateKane wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

No, it isn't prejudice whatsoever. It is accepting that the character of Jack is a heterosexual one (she actually DOES shoot down a lesbian Shepard coming onto her), that Thane is also straight, and that Samara doesn't want a physical romance. You are unable to accept such a fact.

If this were a thread requesting a gay character be changed to be bi or straight, I WOULD BE JUST AS VEHEMENT. You consistently ignore that I have said this multiple times. I am opposed to changing something like orientation so arbitrarily. I am NOT opposed to same-sex relationships that already exist in-game.

But the characters' orientations are arbitrary. If they wern.t then the homosexual romances for ME1 would never have been recorded.

They are DESIGNED arbitrarily, sure. If Bioware had a bisexual Tali, great, that would have been wonderful. As it is, the shipped game has a Tali who shows no real interest in homosexual relations, and that should be accepted as it is. That is simply not how the character is designed.

It is totally silly to say that you want DLC or even a damned patch to 'fix' something that isn't broken. If I were attracted to one of my lesbian friends (and, of course, didn't already HAVE a girlfriend), I wouldn't get all broken up about the fact that her orientation is such that she has no real desire to have a physical relationship with me. I'd accept her as she is... and stop hounding on about how much I wish she were straight.

[rage-monk]

AngryTigerP wrote...

rage-monk wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

(...)
Your lesbian Commander Shepard character made advances at the character of Tali Zorah Vas'Normandy. Tali Zorah did not respond to your advances. Therefore, Tali is not attracted to you. Get over yourself.
(...)

Actually it rather feels like FemShep rejects her. You could argue that homosexuality is kept at arms length in the game. Sure, there are the Asari and Kelly. But the former are officially monogendered, the latter loves people for their character, not gender (or race). She doesn't like Shepard because of being a woman.

Wait.... please elaborate.

Again, it's just a feeling. I would prefer to have that dialogue written down but when I listened to FemShep telling Tali that she finds the idea of joining suits intriguing, all I get is some sort of "If I must." If we were allowed to play a truly homosexual character, FemShep should say something that would make Tali say "I didn't mean it like that." or similar.

[Naltair]

I think what Tiger and I are trying to say is that we are against the idea of arbitrary changes post-launch, if it were there from launch then so be it I don;t care. I would be equally upset if someone were to make the change in reverse actually, like making Zevran female or male only. It's a bad precdent and does nothing to really enhance the cohesion of the ME universe even if you consider this a small change.



Sexuality is a large part of a character's nature. Sex is a large part of our experience, so of course it will be a hot button issue.