732 réponses à ce sujet

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

Yeah I wish we had more conversations with them even if were not romancing them.

You do run out things to say very quickly.

[Novacain999]

Well dammit. I didn't think I'd have to write a long winded Tali rant today.



Back in high school, I had a female friend that to this day says she is straight. However, she dated a girl back in high school for 6 months. When asked about it, she simply said "She's the only girl I've ever been attracted too, and I don't think it changes who I am." After they broke up, she hasn't dated another girl since, and says she hasn't felt any attraction to any female she sees, but still defends dating the girl back in high school.



What I'm basically trying to get into here, is that it's possible for someone to to be attracted to one sex 99 times out of 100, but still attracted to that the same sex that 1%. And to me, a female Shepard is that 1% possibility to Tali.



I think that overall actions between 2 people can turn into attraction if they mean enough to someone. To me, with all that Shepard is done for her, Tali being attracted to her, even though she might not be gay under normal circumstances, seems like a solid possibility.



Though, really, the way this thread is coming down to "BUT SHE'S NOT GAY!" makes me want to on a super long rant about how people lock themselves into their sexuality and don't leave it to interpretation, but a discussion about a video game character isn't the right place to do it. My case in point, basically, is that It's obvious that Shepard and Tali (if played Paragon), have a mutual affection towards to one another. I could certainly see that easily being a mutual attraction as well.

[jlb524]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

I was a bit disappointed there wasn't a romance there, but what really annoyed me is that because there's no romance you only get to have three conversations with her. I don't care if it ever gets physical or intimate, but they damn well better add something in its place. Tali was the FIRST squadmate to go into the "I really need to configure these engines, maybe later?" loop, despite seeming to be very very close with a female Shephard.

Agreed.  Tali was totally boring in ME2, even more than she was in ME1. 

I almost wished she wasn't a romance option so they would have focused on creating more non-romance dialog with Tali. 

The two squad mates that probably had the most interaction were Mordin and Samara...and both were non-romaceable.  They were also two of my favorite characters.

[challenger18]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Yeah I wish we had more conversations with them even if were not romancing them.

You do run out things to say very quickly.

That was on my list of things to improve. It's sad that if you talk to a character that is romancable (in general, not if you can based on your gender) you'll only have 1-3 dialogues with that person before they just stop saying anything all together. That's not cool seeing as I enjoy talking to all of my squadmates after any mission I complete. I was really surprised by the lack of dialogue. I guess DAO kind of spoiled me in that respect, but it also makes sense since they don't have to worry about the MC actually speaking.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
To put forward a hypothetical situation, what if the Asari, while outwardly looking identical (as in Female), had both Male and Female genders that only played a part in their mental baby-making. Would anyone who wasn't an Asari actually care?

It's really hindsight, actually that has me on the side of she isn't bisexual, in the I am attracted to human females sense.  I don't see any biological imperative in her case, this is not about propagating a species this is about a close intimate and physical relationship with a man she has grown to admire and care deeply for.  Something that is noticed by Kelly Chambers, who does not note that for female Shepards.  Same can be said for Garrus in reverse.

In the end after you gain her loyalty you have the option to pursue a relationship with her if male, but it is her choice, her motivation to do so.  You do not get this choice with the female Shepard as far as I know and she just wants to link suits, which is a sign of intimacy and closeness between dear and close friends.

Eventually the relationship turns physical this an important element of the relationship.  She does not want a physical relationship with female Shepard but she does with male Shepard and so this tells me that she cares both very deeply but ultimately she prefers and acts in a way that is identifiable as heterosexual, based purely on gender and not species.

That is my take on the scenario.

Modifié par Naltair, 03 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[DaeJi]

jlb524 wrote...

The two squad mates that probably had the most interaction were Mordin and Samara...and both were non-romaceable.  They were also two of my favorite characters.

I would trade every single interaction in both games to have Mordin be a love interest.

[HAGA NAGA]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Let me reiterate I am not against the idea of her being bi, just the idea that there needs to be some DLC, to fix something that isn't a problem to begin with. By that thinking they should just release a DLC that makes every character bisexual and call it a day making the gender choice rather pointless.

For a lot of people, not having any true same sex romances is a problem with the game. It's not even about Tali, it's about having a choice. As for gender, I did not choose to play a female Shepard because of the romance (I choose it because of the voice acting). I'm fairly sure that most people did not choice their Shepard's gender based on romance.

I would number myself amoung those that originally chose Femshep for the voice acting and the character creator.  I absolutely fell in love with my Femshep character for the look i gave her and her voice.  that being said, the lack of romance options really really upset me precisely because i had such a strong attachment to my character.  i would say that this is the single biggest issue i have with ME2 and i would be ecstatic if bioware did us a service on this.

and the idea that Tali being a romanceable option for Femshep would somehow cheapen or affect a Maleshep's gaming experience is just silly and a selfish argument at best.

[MistressMagee]

It would be an interesting concept, but I suppose she was reserved for the male pop. like Garrus was for the female pop. I would have liked to have seen the option for a true gay or lesbian romance (as opposed to bi or a true female alien population which is not the same) option but I get the feeling someone on the Bioware team is really against it?

[jlb524]

Are people arguing that Tali is or isn't bisexual, or are you arguing that Tali should have been bisexual?



It's quite obvious she isn't bisexual, because Bioware chose not to make her bisexual for whatever reasons they have. Now, should they have made her bisexual? That's a whole different discussion.

[Naltair]

Novacain999 wrote...
Though, really, the way this thread is coming down to "BUT SHE'S NOT GAY!" makes me want to on a super long rant about how people lock themselves into their sexuality and don't leave it to interpretation, but a discussion about a video game character isn't the right place to do it. My case in point, basically, is that It's obvious that Shepard and Tali (if played Paragon), have a mutual affection towards to one another. I could certainly see that easily being a mutual attraction as well.

Oh I agree that people can change but it sounds like your friend is in general heterosexual and was experimenting which is common for that age.  I don't think it comes down to locking oneself into one orientation or another it's basically what you feel, what you know of yourself and what you are comfortable with.

Maybe Tali wants to be with female Shepard but something holds her back, maybe she just can't admit those feelings to herself and others.  We will never really know but all we can work with with is what her actions are in the game.

Modifié par Naltair, 03 février 2010 - 09:51 .

[DaeJi]

MistressMagee wrote...

It would be an interesting concept, but I suppose she was reserved for the male pop. like Garrus was for the female pop. I would have liked to have seen the option for a true gay or lesbian romance (as opposed to bi or a true female alien population which is not the same) option but I get the feeling someone on the Bioware team is really against it?

BioWare has done same sex romances before, and they have done them well.

[Skilled Seeker]

Why is it a must to have a gay or lesbian romance? Seriously do you peeps get off to the romances in ME?

[Naltair]

jlb524 wrote...

Are people arguing that Tali is or isn't bisexual, or are you arguing that Tali should have been bisexual?

It's quite obvious she isn't bisexual, because Bioware chose not to make her bisexual for whatever reasons they have. Now, should they have made her bisexual? That's a whole different discussion.

I believe it's the latter that she should be, more so than is.  Because we all know as of ME2 she is not bisexual.

[KalosCast]

jlb524 wrote...

Real life's a bit different from video games.  Of course you don't petition Congress to force a hot person to be bisexual!  That's ridiculous and  not a very good analogy.

A video game is just a form of entertainment and this specific game is supposed to be all about 'choices' and being able to play as your Shepard.  Well, romantic choices are awfully limited for gay and lesbian  Shepards.

Since they're trying to make a realistic universe, even among the obvious fictional bits, you can easily tell that a lot of care and attention has been added to the details to make this a realistic world. I would like to be on record as saying a lack of a gay romance option in both games rather stinks, but in the real world gay and lesbian romance options are also limited. Depending on what source you pull from, only 10-15% of humans are homosexual, and (we're excluding the Asari and Salarians for our calculations here) for reasons of procreation for the survival of the species, biology and all that, numbers for the other races would be relatively similar. Couple in with, in Tali's case, almost all of the Quarian laws are designed with the survival, security, and continuation of their species and would therefore likely frown on that sort of thing, so any Quarians would be a lot less likely to be "out" about such urges and may even attempt to repress them.

Making characters arbitraily ******- or bisexual for no reason other than pandering is pretty much fanservice of the worst kind. Making all characters romanceable by all Sheps is mind-bendingly unrealistic in every way and completely idiotic. And even then, "being attracted to your gender" and "being attracted to YOU" are completely different ballgames. I will once again state that the homosexual options in the ME series do kinda suck (especially more male sheps) demanding the Normandy Love-Fest DLC, or even the very idea that Bioware "owes" it to you... or most specifically for this thread "owes" you Tali is just well... pathetic.

[MistressMagee]

DaeJi wrote...

MistressMagee wrote...

It would be an interesting concept, but I suppose she was reserved for the male pop. like Garrus was for the female pop. I would have liked to have seen the option for a true gay or lesbian romance (as opposed to bi or a true female alien population which is not the same) option but I get the feeling someone on the Bioware team is really against it?

BioWare has done same sex romances before, and they have done them well.

Sorry sorry! I meant on the Mass Effect Team, I was being quick to respond.

[Naltair]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Why is it a must to have a gay or lesbian romance? Seriously do you peeps get off to the romances in ME?

I think it is just a matter of wish fulfillment and treatment for their preferred lifestyles, no matter how minor the LIs may or may not be they form an important piece of the Mass Effect trilogy.  People love relationships.

[Naltair]

I know this may throw some salt into some old wounds for some but for those posters that are gay or bi, do you not have friends you would love to be with but can't because they are not interested in you in that way? I would think this is a common or semi-common occurrence.

Modifié par Naltair, 03 février 2010 - 09:52 .

[DaeJi]

MistressMagee wrote...
Sorry sorry! I meant on the Mass Effect Team, I was being quick to respond.

Woah, mate, calm down, no harm done. Speaking of the team, BioWare did say that the Mass Effect 2 team and the Dragon Age: Origins did share members (and given how similar those games are, I believe it), so I don't think that that was the reason.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
To put forward a hypothetical situation, what if the Asari, while outwardly looking identical (as in Female), had both Male and Female genders that only played a part in their mental baby-making. Would anyone who wasn't an Asari actually care?

It's really hindsight, actually that has me on the side of she isn't bisexual, in the I am attracted to human females sense.  I don't see any biological imperative in her case, this is not about propagating a species this is about a close intimate and physical relationship with a man she has grown to admire and care deeply for.  Something that is noticed by Kelly Chambers, who does not note that for female Shepards.  Same can be said for Garrus in reverse.

In the end after you gain her loyalty you have the option to pursue a relationship with her if male, but it is her choice, her motivation to do so.  You do not get this choice with the female Shepard as far as I know and she just wants to link suits, which is a sign of intimacy and closeness between dear and close friends.

Eventually the relationship turns physical this an important element of the relationship.  She does not want a physical relationship with female Shepard but she does with male Shepard and so this tells me that she cares both very deeply but ultimately she prefers and acts in a way that is identifiable as heterosexual, based purely on gender and not species.

That is my take on the scenario.

Wow, hmm...is this an example of the Regression fallacy? You're using the quesiton, "would Tali be attracted to a female Shephard" and then attacking it basically with itself. The events of ME2 are what's in question here, and you're basically taking whatever driving factors were going on in BioWare at the time (a strong possibility - not wanting to take heat over a more clearly-cut same-sex romance than the Liara in ME1) as Tali's personality. 

Looking at what we know of her character, I'm struggling to find a good reason for why she wouldn't be interested in a female Shephard. Or rather, I am MORE confused for why she would want to be intimate with a Male Shephard. I was rather content with their relationship (Tali and my Femshep, apart from how soon she started looping) when I finished the game, then was blown away to learn that she was romanceable for Male Shephards. I could guarantee that my Femshep was more of a protective figure to her than some of the Male Shephards she fell for. 

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 03 février 2010 - 09:55 .

[MistressMagee]

Actually, are there no mods out there for this? I know for Dragon Age my gay buddy found a way to have Alistair fall for his male character.

[Naltair]

I honestly think it has more to do with Shepard's military background and the connotation that female same sex relationships are "sexier" than male ones and even males that play as a female would rather be bi than get with Kaidan.



Just my two cents.

[HAGA NAGA]

Naltair wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Why is it a must to have a gay or lesbian romance? Seriously do you peeps get off to the romances in ME?

I think it is just a matter of wish fulfillment and treatment for their preferred lifestyles, no matter how minor the LIs may or may not be they form an important piece of the Mass Effect trilogy.  People love relationships.

I love Mass Effect. The story and the characters are important to me. My Femshep character had her eye on Tali from day one and I had my fingers crossed for a ME2 romance with her. Do i "get off" to the romances in ME? depends on what you mean, but i would say "yes" i do. is that a problem for you? maybe you just don't like ME as much as me, i don't know.

[Kolaris8472]

MistressMagee wrote...

Actually, are there no mods out there for this? I know for Dragon Age my gay buddy found a way to have Alistair fall for his male character.

They apparently didn't have Jennifer Hale read lines for it though. They have the segments marked, but they're empty. In Dragon Age the PC was silent. 

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
To put forward a hypothetical situation, what if the Asari, while outwardly looking identical (as in Female), had both Male and Female genders that only played a part in their mental baby-making. Would anyone who wasn't an Asari actually care?

It's really hindsight, actually that has me on the side of she isn't bisexual, in the I am attracted to human females sense.  I don't see any biological imperative in her case, this is not about propagating a species this is about a close intimate and physical relationship with a man she has grown to admire and care deeply for.  Something that is noticed by Kelly Chambers, who does not note that for female Shepards.  Same can be said for Garrus in reverse.

In the end after you gain her loyalty you have the option to pursue a relationship with her if male, but it is her choice, her motivation to do so.  You do not get this choice with the female Shepard as far as I know and she just wants to link suits, which is a sign of intimacy and closeness between dear and close friends.

Eventually the relationship turns physical this an important element of the relationship.  She does not want a physical relationship with female Shepard but she does with male Shepard and so this tells me that she cares both very deeply but ultimately she prefers and acts in a way that is identifiable as heterosexual, based purely on gender and not species.

That is my take on the scenario.

Wow, hmm...is this an example of the Regression fallacy? You're using the quesiton, "would Tali be attracted to a female Shephard" and then attacking it basically with itself. The events of ME2 are what's in question here, and you're basically taking whatever driving factors were going on in BioWare at the time (a strong possibility - not wanting to take heat over a more clearly-cut same-sex romance than the Liara in ME1) as Tali's personality. 

Looking at what we know of her character, I'm struggling to find a good reason for why she wouldn't be interested in a female Shephard. Or rather, I am MORE confused for why she would want to be intimate with a Male Shephard. I was rather content with their relationship (Tali and my Femshep, apart from how soon she started looping) when I finished the game, then was blown away to learn that she was romanceable for Male Shephards. I could guarantee that my Femshep was more of a protective figure to her than some of the Male Shephards she fell for. 

What fallacy I listed all events that happened in the game as they happened and in fact you have a a fallacy to believe that somehow your Shepard was more caring than mine?  I won't account for the actual treatment and actions of the character just Tali's actions.

I fail to see how what I said is in anyway a fallacy, this is the evidence that in hindsight supports my claim that she is straight.  Could she still be bisexual, possibly but there is no evidence in game to support that argument in a strong manner.  

[HAGA NAGA]

MistressMagee wrote...

Actually, are there no mods out there for this? I know for Dragon Age my gay buddy found a way to have Alistair fall for his male character.

That is probably the route a lot of people will take in the end.  but we want it to be legitimate and carry over to ME3 via our save files, mods will not do this for us