732 réponses à ce sujet

[Naltair]

I can't argue with should she bisexual, but I can argue against is she bisexual, given the current evidence from ME2.

[RPGmom28]

I like her a lot for my male Shep, and she's the one he's dating. The alternatives are not to my liking because Samara isn't an option. But as for my female Shep, I like Garrus and don't feel leanings toward Tali in that way.

[stjasonl1]

I thought I was going to hit that, or at least Kelly

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

I can't argue with should she bisexual, but I can argue against is she bisexual, given the current evidence from ME2.

That evidence is only because the dialog is locked for a female Shepard. She could be anyway BioWare wants her to be, none of the NPCs' sexualities are set in stone.

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I can't argue with should she bisexual, but I can argue against is she bisexual, given the current evidence from ME2.

That evidence is only because the dialog is locked for a female Shepard. She could be anyway BioWare wants her to be, none of the NPCs' sexualities are set in stone.

Being software this is true, but given the game is launched and they did not go back and change Ashley or Kaidan's orientation I am pretty sure this one is written in stone.  Or as much stone as any game can be written in.

[Esker02]

DaeJi wrote...

If BioWare had meant for them to be romance options they would have been right from the start too. But they weren't, and fans wanted them, so they got them. You keep going on and on about pandering while ignoring that the Tali and Garrus romance are panderings to fans already. And guess what, it didn't ruin the characters. And tell me, how does giving a player a choice throw choice out of the window? Maybe I'm missing something here, but in a game built on the choices you make more choices would be a good thing (within reason). Not only that, not giving same sex romance options limits how a player can design their Shepard, a character already fairly limited when it comes to customization.

So, to sum up, BioWare already pandered to the fans without ruining any characters.

If people are so scared of this ruining their idea of the character, then a DLC is the best way to go. Those who want it can get it, and those who don't won't have to worry about it. And everyone wins.

There's a difference here. BioWare didn't state that Tali was somehow unable to "be with" Shepard in ME1, it was just some indirect speculation and implication that it might not be possible. They didn't break anything pre-established about her chracter by making her available now. Now Tali has been revealed to be straight - you want to change that. What you're proposing is actively changing part of Tali's character and personality now, merely because you don't like it. That's like me saying "Hey uhh BioWare, Jack is really rude. I want you to release some DLC so she doesn't swear quite as much. Thanks"

It just doesn't make sense, and it's very selfish, to be perfectly honest, that you think a character's sexual orientation should strictly revolve around what you want to see. Much like character development and personality, particularly after its been written, it's not about what you want. It's about what the writers feel is appropriate and makes a compelling character. In this case, Tali being straight was the decision. You have every right to feel disappointed or whatever it is the emotion you were initially intent on conveying, but you don't have the right to feel like you've been wronged and it needs correcting.

As I said, its inappropriate and more than a little selfish.

[Naltair]

I admire your tenacity on the subject but I don't think it will garner any results.

[Novacain999]

Naltair wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...
Though, really, the way this thread is coming down to "BUT SHE'S NOT GAY!" makes me want to on a super long rant about how people lock themselves into their sexuality and don't leave it to interpretation, but a discussion about a video game character isn't the right place to do it. My case in point, basically, is that It's obvious that Shepard and Tali (if played Paragon), have a mutual affection towards to one another. I could certainly see that easily being a mutual attraction as well.

Oh I agree that people can change but it sounds like your friend is in general heterosexual and was experimenting which is common for that age.  I don't think it comes down to locking oneself into one orientation or another it's basically what you feel, what you know of yourself and what you are comfortable with.

Maybe Tali wants to be with female Shepard but something holds her back, maybe she just can't admit those feelings to herself and others.  We will never really know but all we can work with with is what her actions are in the game.

I think your half right reguarding my friend, but she claimed she was straight while dating the girl. She once made a joke that she was "Straight with a side of", commenting that she she was the only girl who had ever peaked her interest. 

And, as you said, we can only work with what we have in the game. And your interactions with Tali are still very very affectionate, and to me, seemed of two people who were past just being friends, or atleast viewed each other as something more then that.

It could just be really really close friends, I'm not gonna deny. But I think between the "I Miss Shepard", the "I got something better. I got you", and Tali being willing to go onto a Cerberus ship to stand by your side, there is enough there to show that Tali really really cares for Shepard. Would it really shock you if in ME3, Tali says she's been attracted to a female Shepard the entire time, but was just too caught on being with a girl and not thinking Shepard would be interested?

I've stated in the past all I really want from ME3 reguarding Tali is there to be an option were Tali admits that she views you as more then a best friend. I don't need a sex scene or anything like that. I don't know, I don't think it's asking that much, but I don't see it happening.

[Kwonnern]

Tali was a lil cutiepie that's for sure!

Modifié par Kwonnern, 03 février 2010 - 10:10 .

[Naltair]

Esker02 wrote...
There's a difference here. BioWare didn't state that Tali was somehow unable to "be with" Shepard in ME1, it was just some indirect speculation and implication that it might not be possible. They didn't break anything pre-established about her chracter by making her available now. Now Tali has been revealed to be straight - you want to change that. What you're proposing is actively changing part of Tali's character and personality now, merely because you don't like it. That's like me saying "Hey uhh BioWare, Jack is really rude. I want you to release some DLC so she doesn't swear quite as much. Thanks"

It just doesn't make sense, and it's very selfish, to be perfectly honest, that you think a character's sexual orientation should strictly revolve around what you want to see. Much like character development and personality, particularly after its been written, it's not about what you want. It's about what the writers feel is appropriate and makes a compelling character. In this case, Tali being straight was the decision. You have every right to feel disappointed or whatever it is the emotion you were initially intent on conveying, but you don't have the right to feel like you've been wronged and it needs correcting.

As I said, its inappropriate and more than a little selfish.

Thank you I agree with you completely.

[HAGA NAGA]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I can't argue with should she bisexual, but I can argue against is she bisexual, given the current evidence from ME2.

That evidence is only because the dialog is locked for a female Shepard. She could be anyway BioWare wants her to be, none of the NPCs' sexualities are set in stone.

Another thing that has been reiterated countless times at this point is that the comments she made (that weren't locked) are to me quite suggestive as is the "embrace" on her mission.  You see it as a "sisterly love", but that is every bit as much a subjective observation on your part as is my observation. You say "prove it" and i turn right back around say the same thing to you.

[Naltair]

Novacain999 wrote...
I've stated in the past all I really want from ME3 reguarding Tali is there to be an option were Tali admits that she views you as more then a best friend. I don't need a sex scene or anything like that. I don't know, I don't think it's asking that much, but I don't see it happening.

She did that in ME2 by suggesting linking suits?  I am not quite clear on how that works for the female Shepard, but that seems as close as one can get to a quarian, like knowing a hanar's soul name.

[DaeJi]

Esker02 wrote...

As I said, its inappropriate and more than a little selfish.

She could die kissing Shepard. Garrus could too. Speaking of Garrus, he isn't even attracted to humans, just Shepard. All because fans wanted it. <_<

[Naltair]

HAGA NAGA wrote...
Another thing that has been reiterated countless times at this point is that the comments she made (that weren't locked) are to me quite suggestive as is the "embrace" on her mission.  You see it as a "sisterly love", but that is every bit as much a subjective observation on your part as is my observation. You say "prove it" and i turn right back around say the same thing to you.

So when a girl hugs another girl in a supportive manner you automatically see a sexual connotation?  I didn't even see that with my male Shepard, I saw a friend consoling another friend over the death of a loved one.  if you want to read more into it then go ahead but that was being a friend not I want to sex you up on your dad's corpse.

[HAGA NAGA]

Naltair wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...
Another thing that has been reiterated countless times at this point is that the comments she made (that weren't locked) are to me quite suggestive as is the "embrace" on her mission.  You see it as a "sisterly love", but that is every bit as much a subjective observation on your part as is my observation. You say "prove it" and i turn right back around say the same thing to you.

So when a girl hugs another girl in a supportive manner you automatically see a sexual connotation?  I didn't even see that with my male Shepard, I saw a friend consoling another friend over the death of a loved one.  if you want to read more into it then go ahead but that was being a friend not I want to sex you up on your dad's corpse.

did i say that? no. however when i see MY Femshep hug Tali in a supportive manner i see a "romantic" connotation. please don't put words in my mouth.

[Naltair]

I apologize but I can't argue against what you feel, I can only argue against what I see. What you feel is something that cannot be quantified and therefore beyond the scope of the argument where I am just trying to present facts as best I can. I try not to put my personal spin on them and I just try to go with what is known.

Modifié par Naltair, 03 février 2010 - 10:20 .

[KalosCast]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

Naltair wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...
Another thing that has been reiterated countless times at this point is that the comments she made (that weren't locked) are to me quite suggestive as is the "embrace" on her mission.  You see it as a "sisterly love", but that is every bit as much a subjective observation on your part as is my observation. You say "prove it" and i turn right back around say the same thing to you.

So when a girl hugs another girl in a supportive manner you automatically see a sexual connotation?  I didn't even see that with my male Shepard, I saw a friend consoling another friend over the death of a loved one.  if you want to read more into it then go ahead but that was being a friend not I want to sex you up on your dad's corpse.

did i say that? no. however when i see MY Femshep hug Tali in a supportive manner i see a "romantic" connotation. please don't put words in my mouth.

Maybe you should keep your homones our of their writing.

[HAGA NAGA]

Naltair wrote...

I apologize but I can't argue against what you feel, I can only argue against what I see. What you feel is something that cannot be quantified and therefore beyond the scope of the argument where I am just trying to present facts as best I can. I try not to put my personal spin on them and I just try to go with what is known.

if you really tried not to put your pesonal spin on it you wouldn't have said that whole bit about "sex you up on your dad's corpse".

[Kolaris8472]

Esker02 wrote...
It just doesn't make sense, and it's very selfish, to be perfectly honest, that you think a character's sexual orientation should strictly revolve around what you want to see. Much like character development and personality, particularly after its been written, it's not about what you want. It's about what the writers feel is appropriate and makes a compelling character. In this case, Tali being straight was the decision. You have every right to feel disappointed or whatever it is the emotion you were initially intent on conveying, but you don't have the right to feel like you've been wronged and it needs correcting.
.

#1 - Even Writers sometimes don't get what they want when it comes to a huge, collaborative project. You're setting them up as the absolute authority when I'm betting they're just the highest one. Who knows what they really wanted, maybe they did write in a female romance (the sound files are there, just empty) but it didn't pan out for reasons other than Tali's character. 

#2 - A lot of what goes on in ME2 makes this issue horribly ambiguous. Game development isn't perfect. And I feel that while the Tali-Male Shephard romance is not very well justified, a Tali-Female justified is even less ruled out for good reasons. Tali brings up never being this close with anyone before, talks about how if Shephard were Quarian she'd Sync-Suits with her, then...it arbitrarily drops. This gives me the feeling it didn't pan out for reasons other than making a compelling character. Again. Kind of ended on the same note both times.  

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 03 février 2010 - 10:22 .

[Novacain999]

Naltair wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...
I've stated in the past all I really want from ME3 reguarding Tali is there to be an option were Tali admits that she views you as more then a best friend. I don't need a sex scene or anything like that. I don't know, I don't think it's asking that much, but I don't see it happening.

She did that in ME2 by suggesting linking suits?  I am not quite clear on how that works for the female Shepard, but that seems as close as one can get to a quarian, like knowing a hanar's soul name.

*chuckles* I like how you delete the stuff outside of that so you don't have to adress the part of the argument that you'd have admit is a fair point. It's a clever dodge.

That scene was approaching what I mean, but I don't think it quite got there. The fact that a male shepard can continue it to the point of bedding her kinda goes why it's a letdown to players using a female Shepard who love Tali to death.

I also find the notion that the fact that she didn't hit on you there means she wouldn't have interest flawed, and that she's "written to be straight" as well. She still shows a great deal of interest in a female Shepard over the course of the game. Like I asked before, if Bioware decided to have Tali admit that she did have interest in you, but was too nervous and insecure to admit it due to it not only being another species, but also the same gender, would it really come across as out of character? I don't think so.

[Naltair]

There are certain thing that are not subjective one of them being Kelly Chambers noticing the attraction, the actual flirtation, and the culmination of the romance. On top of that the fact that lines were not voiced and the voice work has been for about a year now is pretty telling now. Mark Meer stated he did the bulk of the voice work over last summer and there was voice in the GDC conference leak when the ME2 video was leaked. So the voice work was done quite awhile ago, if they wanted to fix it they had plenty of time to do so but never did. It says to me that decision was made a long time ago and just left in game and not dealt with.

[HaloKT]

Naltair wrote...

I can't argue with should she bisexual, but I can argue against is she bisexual, given the current evidence from ME2.

The current "evidence" is censored shortly before release. AFAIK the Prima guide states that only Miranda and Jacob were "straight only" romances but that there are other romances to be had. Which explains why Jacob is aso anxious to get into my pants so early. Just like Liara or Kaidan in ME1 it's very clear that he's the go-to standard romance option.
And just like the changing of a new character Shep's decisions in the ME1 timeline, same sex relationships got the axe very, very shortly pre-release. I wouldn't be shocked if some dataminer actually found audio files for the Tali/Femshep romance and they only blocked the conversational trigger for it before going gold in order to cheaply avoid backlash from popular media. Overall, the sex scenes are drastically toned down from ME1 as well. Not that I'd mind. I don't need some virtual depiction of sex. Call me a sucker for emotions, but I really miss the loved and cared for feeling I had in ME1.

[Naltair]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I apologize but I can't argue against what you feel, I can only argue against what I see. What you feel is something that cannot be quantified and therefore beyond the scope of the argument where I am just trying to present facts as best I can. I try not to put my personal spin on them and I just try to go with what is known.

if you really tried not to put your pesonal spin on it you wouldn't have said that whole bit about "sex you up on your dad's corpse".

I misread your post so yeah I apologize and even said as much.

[Kolaris8472]

DaeJi wrote...

Esker02 wrote...

As I said, its inappropriate and more than a little selfish.

She could die kissing Shepard. Garrus could too. Speaking of Garrus, he isn't even attracted to humans, just Shepard. All because fans wanted it. <_<

This is exactly how I feel. I felt the Suit-Syncing gesture was well done, it was touching, it made sense. That would have been the end of it as far as I'm concerned except I later find out Tali whips her mask out for a Male Shephard, which makes absolute no sense for any other reason than the fans wanted it. 

So here I am, telling BioWare I'd want a Femshep/Tali romance. Of sorts. I don't want her to die.

[Naltair]

Novacain999 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...
I've stated in the past all I really want from ME3 reguarding Tali is there to be an option were Tali admits that she views you as more then a best friend. I don't need a sex scene or anything like that. I don't know, I don't think it's asking that much, but I don't see it happening.

She did that in ME2 by suggesting linking suits?  I am not quite clear on how that works for the female Shepard, but that seems as close as one can get to a quarian, like knowing a hanar's soul name.

*chuckles* I like how you delete the stuff outside of that so you don't have to adress the part of the argument that you'd have admit is a fair point. It's a clever dodge.

That scene was approaching what I mean, but I don't think it quite got there. The fact that a male shepard can continue it to the point of bedding her kinda goes why it's a letdown to players using a female Shepard who love Tali to death.

I also find the notion that the fact that she didn't hit on you there means she wouldn't have interest flawed, and that she's "written to be straight" as well. She still shows a great deal of interest in a female Shepard over the course of the game. Like I asked before, if Bioware decided to have Tali admit that she did have interest in you, but was too nervous and insecure to admit it due to it not only being another species, but also the same gender, would it really come across as out of character? I don't think so.

I wasn't really dodging I just found that bit the more interesting of what you wrote.

It is obvious there is no real middle ground here, if you want to infer from the scenes that there is something more then go for it but if nothing comes of it, then well that is how it goes.