732 réponses à ce sujet

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...
My insinuation is that if you make every romance choice available to every gender then you eliminate one of the KEY differences between female and male Shepard.  They are nearly exactly the same otherwise.

The key difference between a male and female Shepard is that one is a male, and the other is female. And note how we don't want every love interest to be bisexuality, just one or two  of them for each gender.

Gender roles mean nothing if every romance is available to both genders, stop trying to be obtuse it's simple relationship dynamics.

[Kolaris8472]

AngryTigerP wrote...
So... a couple of girlfriends (both heterosexual) sharing a bed for a sleepover means that they must have sex? Because I doubt they have more in mind than gossip.

But they didn't add that either. If they would have, it would have differentiated the relationships. Instead, the Male/Female characters talk to Tali exactly the same up until Tali says she trusts Shephard, at which point for Female's it arbitrarily drops. 

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

Gender roles mean nothing if every romance is available to both genders, stop trying to be obtuse it's simple relationship dynamics.

If gender meant nothing beyond romance why do people play characters of the opposite gender? There's a lot more to it than romance.

[Naltair]

Novacain999 wrote...
I think I've been arguing the middle ground (That it's not likely, but they didn't completely close the door on the issue like some people think). Honestly, I'm biased, but I'd say your the one who isn't seeing the middle ground here.

And yeah, as someone who thinks they didn't completely shut the door (The only way for that to have been done would be propositioning her, and her saying I'm not interested, or her dieing I guess), and would like to see it in the 3rd if at all possible, I'm gonna keep commenting on it. No clue why you are posting here if basically all your going to do is argue with everyone who agrees with the thread concept.

I hate when people say why are you posting in blank thread because you don't agree...

I post because I don't agree but I don;t attack people and I try to argue the facts as best as I can.  Now I agree if the door is not close and they decide to open it up in ME3 then go for it but I just don't personally see it.  But I am not saying I am predicting the future but for the moment even if the door is ajar, she still prefers and wants a relationship with male Shepard, at least physically and romantically.

[HAGA NAGA]

Naltair wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

A mother with her child is one thing. Two grown women going through the ordeal of sharing suits so they can chat is a retarded notion. think about what you're saying? Jesus Christ, right back at ya!

Because best friends don't like to show each other how much one means to the other?  Platonic love can be just as powerful as romantic love.

Tali was even apprehensive about sharing suits with her true love, and there are a lot of practical reasons for two people in love to need to have physical contact with each other.  Your idea that two platonic girlfriends need to be in the same suit to the extent of jeopardizing Tali's life so they can what? play patty-cake? my god man, YOU are the one making a stretch here, a huge stretch. 

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...
My insinuation is that if you make every romance choice available to every gender then you eliminate one of the KEY differences between female and male Shepard.  They are nearly exactly the same otherwise.

The key difference between a male and female Shepard is that one is a male, and the other is female. And note how we don't want every love interest to be bisexuality, just one or two  of them for each gender.

Gender roles mean nothing if every romance is available to both genders, stop trying to be obtuse it's simple relationship dynamics.

Relationship dynamics between species is hardly a simple matter. I would go back to asking how it would make any difference. When nothing..."works" either way, the connection would be emotional, mental, and spiritual, not physical. Which is why, again, I don't think the way the Tali romance works in ME2 makes any sense. 

[HAGA NAGA]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
So... a couple of girlfriends (both heterosexual) sharing a bed for a sleepover means that they must have sex? Because I doubt they have more in mind than gossip.

But they didn't add that either. If they would have, it would have differentiated the relationships. Instead, the Male/Female characters talk to Tali exactly the same up until Tali says she trusts Shephard, at which point for Female's it arbitrarily drops. 

there's really no sense in arguing with these guys. they have an alterior motive. They simply do not want there to be a Femshep/Tali romance. and rather than admit it they have opted to fail miserably at making their ridiculous "Tali wanted to share suits with Femshep to have a sleepover" case. i mean seriously. LOL! it's ridiculous.

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Gender roles mean nothing if every romance is available to both genders, stop trying to be obtuse it's simple relationship dynamics.

If gender meant nothing beyond romance why do people play characters of the opposite gender? There's a lot more to it than romance.

People play what they like I am not saying people choose their gender based on romances, but romances are based on gender.  I am not saying you specifically or anyone chose their gender based ion what romances they could have they chose them because that is what they wanted; looks, familiarity, wish fulfillment, idealistic image, or just the idea of playing yourself in space.  But that choice even if you did not realize had some affect on who you could romance.  Just like it does in the real world.

[Naltair]

Double post.

Modifié par Naltair, 03 février 2010 - 10:50 .

[Esker02]

DaeJi wrote...

The key difference between a male and female Shepard is that one is a male, and the other is female. And note how we don't want every love interest to be bisexuality, just one or two  of them for each gender.

Again, that's fine to feel that way, you should make a thread calling for new cast members to be bisexual in ME3. That being said, what isn't fine is to redact post-launch a character's sexuality. That's just weird, to say the least.

Plus, I like all of this "prove she's not bisexual!" language. Proving a negative is a fair burden, right? Wrong. You have to prove there's even a chance she is - and both examples, a hug, linking suits, are explained away with ease. One piece of evidence that is not explained away is the simple inability for FemShep to romance Tali. Ergo, Tali is straight. Unless maybe Ashley is bisexual as well. And Kaidan. And Garrus. And Jacob. And every other romance. Just because you can't romance them doesn't mean anything now, apparently.

You (I'm referring more broadly to those that are in agreement with you, of course) want to add something after the fact and alter her character just because you feel it should've been different. I don't get how you can't realize how wrong that is.

[AngryTigerP]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

Naltair wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

A mother with her child is one thing. Two grown women going through the ordeal of sharing suits so they can chat is a retarded notion. think about what you're saying? Jesus Christ, right back at ya!

Because best friends don't like to show each other how much one means to the other?  Platonic love can be just as powerful as romantic love.

Tali was even apprehensive about sharing suits with her true love, and there are a lot of practical reasons for two people in love to need to have physical contact with each other.  Your idea that two platonic girlfriends need to be in the same suit to the extent of jeopardizing Tali's life so they can what? play patty-cake? my god man, YOU are the one making a stretch here, a huge stretch. 

I just... I really can't see how it is that you don't understand the disconnect you have.

It is a gesture of trust. It's like telling someone you trust them with your life. Again -- THAT is why the birthing link occurred. Raan had an [implied] deep platonic relationship with Mrs. Zorah, and wanted to show her support and love for her friend by risking her health (not life, mind you, but still, a degree of her well-being) to join her in the birth of her daughter.

[HAGA NAGA]

Naltair wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...
I think I've been arguing the middle ground (That it's not likely, but they didn't completely close the door on the issue like some people think). Honestly, I'm biased, but I'd say your the one who isn't seeing the middle ground here.

And yeah, as someone who thinks they didn't completely shut the door (The only way for that to have been done would be propositioning her, and her saying I'm not interested, or her dieing I guess), and would like to see it in the 3rd if at all possible, I'm gonna keep commenting on it. No clue why you are posting here if basically all your going to do is argue with everyone who agrees with the thread concept.

I hate when people say why are you posting in blank thread because you don't agree...

I post because I don't agree but I don;t attack people and I try to argue the facts as best as I can.  Now I agree if the door is not close and they decide to open it up in ME3 then go for it but I just don't personally see it.  But I am not saying I am predicting the future but for the moment even if the door is ajar, she still prefers and wants a relationship with male Shepard, at least physically and romantically.

that's a load of bull. you're investing waaaay to much time in here to be a casual observer. it took me a while to figure out your motivation, but it's pretty obvious that you want to sink "our" ship.  Why? I still have no idea, but it's annoying.

[AngryTigerP]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
So... a couple of girlfriends (both heterosexual) sharing a bed for a sleepover means that they must have sex? Because I doubt they have more in mind than gossip.

But they didn't add that either. If they would have, it would have differentiated the relationships. Instead, the Male/Female characters talk to Tali exactly the same up until Tali says she trusts Shephard, at which point for Female's it arbitrarily drops. 

there's really no sense in arguing with these guys. they have an alterior motive. They simply do not want there to be a Femshep/Tali romance. and rather than admit it they have opted to fail miserably at making their ridiculous "Tali wanted to share suits with Femshep to have a sleepover" case. i mean seriously. LOL! it's ridiculous.

Read my latest post, kid. If you are a grown woman (hopefully you're a woman), then you really ought to think about the maturity of keeping up this temper tantrum.

[Naltair]

HAGA NAGA wrote...
there's really no sense in arguing with these guys. they have an alterior motive. They simply do not want there to be a Femshep/Tali romance. and rather than admit it they have opted to fail miserably at making their ridiculous "Tali wanted to share suits with Femshep to have a sleepover" case. i mean seriously. LOL! it's ridiculous.

My only ulterior motive is character integrity as I have stated numerous times if she was like that from the get go I would not care, hell I would argue against if they made her bi and then decided to change her in a DLC.  I am not against the idea if it were implemented in the first place, but it isn't.


Just like I would be against it for any other existing ME2 character/romance.

[AngryTigerP]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...
I think I've been arguing the middle ground (That it's not likely, but they didn't completely close the door on the issue like some people think). Honestly, I'm biased, but I'd say your the one who isn't seeing the middle ground here.

And yeah, as someone who thinks they didn't completely shut the door (The only way for that to have been done would be propositioning her, and her saying I'm not interested, or her dieing I guess), and would like to see it in the 3rd if at all possible, I'm gonna keep commenting on it. No clue why you are posting here if basically all your going to do is argue with everyone who agrees with the thread concept.

I hate when people say why are you posting in blank thread because you don't agree...

I post because I don't agree but I don;t attack people and I try to argue the facts as best as I can.  Now I agree if the door is not close and they decide to open it up in ME3 then go for it but I just don't personally see it.  But I am not saying I am predicting the future but for the moment even if the door is ajar, she still prefers and wants a relationship with male Shepard, at least physically and romantically.

that's a load of bull. you're investing waaaay to much time in here to be a casual observer. it took me a while to figure out your motivation, but it's pretty obvious that you want to sink "our" ship.  Why? I still have no idea, but it's annoying.

"If you're not with me... then you are my ENEMY."

Okay, Anakin. Whatever you say.

Only a Sith sees things in black and white (or tolerant and homophobic, in your case).

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 03 février 2010 - 10:53 .

[LemuresXL]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

Naltair wrote...

DaeJi wrote...
While Shepard's dialog isn't there, the squad's dialog is. BioWare would need to spend maybe an hour or two recording new dialog for the character, probably something they could do while working on a DLC. It's not a problem that cannot be overcome with any amount of difficulty.

Of all the DLC to make this just does not seem a good use of resources, but I understand if you disagree.

oh yes, we're all very aware that you feel this way.  i would certainly respect you more if you came right out and said "i don't want you guys to have your Femshep/Tali romance" instead of trying to beat around the bush about it.

I'll say it... I don't want a femShep and Tali romance possibility.  I'll also admit it's for selfish reasons.  I'm not saying it in any kind of hateful way though.  Part of it comes from my personality, in that I wouldn't want to date a Bi-Sexual.  Also I don't like that I've seen so many posts acting like Bioware Owes the gay community this. 
They don't owe anything.  They didn't even owe us a Tali romance at all.  I'm not saying you've acted this way at all HAGA NAGA.  To be honest I haven't read all your posts in here so I don't know. 

Also I wouldn't like the feeling that everyone in the Mass Effect universe is Bi.  People have asked for gay romance with Jack, Miranda, Garrus and Thane also. 

That being said... if Tali ends up having a lesbian also romance included...  I'm not gonna freak out.  Whatever *shrug*

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...
People play what they like I am not saying people choose their gender based on romances, but romances are based on gender.  I am not saying you specifically or anyone chose their gender based ion what romances they could have they chose them because that is what they wanted; looks, familiarity, wish fulfillment, idealistic image, or just the idea of playing yourself in space.  But that choice even if you did not realize had some affect on who you could romance.  Just like it does in the real world.

As I said before, I do agree with you. Just not to the extent. In Dragon Age: Origins, if I wanted to have a male same sex romance, I could only be with Zevran. And that's fine, because I still had the option to have a male/male romance. Mass Effect 2 had none of that. All we want is the option for it. Should gay romances have as many options as straight romances? I would say no. But I do think that it should be there, with an alien and human option for each gender in Mass Effect 2. It would still be less than what straight romance players get, but it would be something.

[Naltair]

I apologize then I figured this was a forum for discussion on varying view points and not a place to only post when you agree with a subject.



But if you feel that I am against you I apologize I am not, only the idea that there is a need for a fix for any character of any gender for any orientation is to change it post launch.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...
there's really no sense in arguing with these guys. they have an alterior motive. They simply do not want there to be a Femshep/Tali romance. and rather than admit it they have opted to fail miserably at making their ridiculous "Tali wanted to share suits with Femshep to have a sleepover" case. i mean seriously. LOL! it's ridiculous.

My only ulterior motive is character integrity as I have stated numerous times if she was like that from the get go I would not care, hell I would argue against if they made her bi and then decided to change her in a DLC.  I am not against the idea if it were implemented in the first place, but it isn't.


Just like I would be against it for any other existing ME2 character/romance.

I'm sort of with you there. I'm certainly not hoping for a retcon, just stating my disappointment (that it was an option for Male Shephards in the first place) and hope that they flesh out the relationship between Tali and Femshep in ME3, as it was left vague and abruptly enough for me to disagree with anyone who outright says she's "Straight", not that that term has any meaning in a Xenophilic relationship anyway. 

[Naltair]

I should reiterate that I am against any drastic change in a DLC for any character especially orientation which seems to be the big one. As I said before would you be happy if they decided to do this and made Jack the bisexual option?

[HAGA NAGA]

LemuresXL wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

Naltair wrote...

DaeJi wrote...
While Shepard's dialog isn't there, the squad's dialog is. BioWare would need to spend maybe an hour or two recording new dialog for the character, probably something they could do while working on a DLC. It's not a problem that cannot be overcome with any amount of difficulty.

Of all the DLC to make this just does not seem a good use of resources, but I understand if you disagree.

oh yes, we're all very aware that you feel this way.  i would certainly respect you more if you came right out and said "i don't want you guys to have your Femshep/Tali romance" instead of trying to beat around the bush about it.

I'll say it... I don't want a femShep and Tali romance possibility.  I'll also admit it's for selfish reasons.  I'm not saying it in any kind of hateful way though.  Part of it comes from my personality, in that I wouldn't want to date a Bi-Sexual.  Also I don't like that I've seen so many posts acting like Bioware Owes the gay community this. 
They don't owe anything.  They didn't even owe us a Tali romance at all.  I'm not saying you've acted this way at all HAGA NAGA.  To be honest I haven't read all your posts in here so I don't know. 

Also I wouldn't like the feeling that everyone in the Mass Effect universe is Bi.  People have asked for gay romance with Jack, Miranda, Garrus and Thane also. 

That being said... if Tali ends up having a lesbian also romance included...  I'm not gonna freak out.  Whatever *shrug*

well hey. guess what, i respect you a lot more than Naltair for coming out and being that blunt about it. so there.

And to clarify for you, i never said "Bioware owes the gay community" or anything of the sort.  What i do feel they owe me as a player is an explanation (or fix) as to why i was able to romance Tali 75% of the way with my Femshep and then cut it off.  And i know some people are arguing that that 75% wasn't romantic, but rather platonic and i gotta tell ya that argument is a LOAD OF CRAP and they know it.

Modifié par HAGA NAGA, 03 février 2010 - 10:59 .

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

I apologize then I figured this was a forum for discussion on varying view points and not a place to only post when you agree with a subject.

But if you feel that I am against you I apologize I am not, only the idea that there is a need for a fix for any character of any gender for any orientation is to change it post launch.

I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing with you. I feel that a DLC with this option would be a good investment and would please the majority of fans who want it and don't want it. You disagree with me and that's fine, I'm just not the kind of guy who goes "lets agree to disagree." Nothing ever comes from that.

[Novacain999]

Naltair wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...
I think I've been arguing the middle ground (That it's not likely, but they didn't completely close the door on the issue like some people think). Honestly, I'm biased, but I'd say your the one who isn't seeing the middle ground here.

And yeah, as someone who thinks they didn't completely shut the door (The only way for that to have been done would be propositioning her, and her saying I'm not interested, or her dieing I guess), and would like to see it in the 3rd if at all possible, I'm gonna keep commenting on it. No clue why you are posting here if basically all your going to do is argue with everyone who agrees with the thread concept.

I hate when people say why are you posting in blank thread because you don't agree...

I post because I don't agree but I don;t attack people and I try to argue the facts as best as I can.  Now I agree if the door is not close and they decide to open it up in ME3 then go for it but I just don't personally see it.  But I am not saying I am predicting the future but for the moment even if the door is ajar, she still prefers and wants a relationship with male Shepard, at least physically and romantically.

And, once more, I feel like if Bioware wanted too, explaining why she she didn't activly continue the conversation as her being insecure about the possibility of dating another female, not that she wasn't interested. There doesn't have to be a "prefered" matter involved. But eh.

And the door was "ajar" for Tali and Garrus being love interests after the first game, but people who were interested said as much and it got noticed. I don't think we'll have the majority of the people to support it, but hey, every little voice helps.

And, honestly, I don't mind talking to you about this, and you haven't attacked people, you are correct, but to some degree, coming into this thread just to activly disagree and arguing constantly is trolling, if you that was your intent or not.

[LemuresXL]

Oops.. mess up

Modifié par LemuresXL, 03 février 2010 - 11:01 .

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

I should reiterate that I am against any drastic change in a DLC for any character especially orientation which seems to be the big one. As I said before would you be happy if they decided to do this and made Jack the bisexual option?

I for one would be fine if they choose Jack instead of Tali for a same sex DLC (assuming they only give each gender one gay option) because then a same sex romance would be there. That is the key thing, having that option. I discuss Tali because of the original purpose of this thread, but my desire for same sex content goes beyond her.