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[lazuli]

kaimanaMM wrote...
...Thane might as well have an expiration date tattooed on his forehead because that is all most everyone ever says about him.

Let's overlook his history as an assassin working for the Hanar.

Let's not see the man who took brutal revenge on those who killed his wife.

Let's ignore the father who tried and failed to be what his son needed.

Let's look past this person who was only going through the motions for the last ten years, no friends, no family, waiting for his body to die as he tried to atone for the one wrong he could never forgive himself for and make right.

And make sure we don't pay any attention to the man who by the end of the game is afraid of dying and losing everything he has miraculously found - the will to fight, to live, to be part of something bigger than himself.

All of those interesting character traits that you listed are made that much more poignant by his imminent death.  Without the terminal illness, he's just another heroic badass with personal problems a la Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc.

Thane is my favorite squadmate in ME2, and not just for his awesome weapon loadout and skill set.  I can still be a Thane fan even if I want him to die.

Maybe you're right.  This thread might be incorrectly named.

[hanar05]

I agree. If a cure just appeared without a reasonable explanation, I wouldn't like that at all. In fact, it's horrible to think about it but if he did have a well-written and tear-jerking final scene, I would prefer that to a miraculous cure.



That's not to say I would prefer he didn't get cured though! A realistic cure would be most welcomed!!

[kaimanaMM]

lazuli wrote...

I can still be a Thane fan even if I want him to die.

I didn't say you couldn't, nor did I mean to imply that someone can't.

It's frustration borne of seeing post after post after post saying there's no way Thane can make it into ME3 or that his character demands a tragic ending.  I don't think it does, but if others feel differently that's understandable, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I won't lie and say it's not a little bit of snark thanks in part to BW's claim (if it's still true or not, I don't know) that they will bring back characters based upon their popularity.  To look around the forum it's a rare thing to find Thane listed as a character people would like to see or expect to return for ME3.  Though, I have to give props to the Kaidan thread, I was reading through and there seems to be a few in there who list Thane on their ME3 list.  

I'd still like to know why and when Thane's illness was decided upon as I think there are any number of other ways to convey his change through the story.

[Pacifien]

kaimanaMM wrote...
I'd still like to know why and when Thane's illness was decided upon as I think there are any number of other ways to convey his change through the story.

I created an alternate scenario which I believed put Thane in the same place as when Shepard met him, but without his illness being the impetus for his penance. Anyone can have that "My gods, what have I become?" moment, and you'd think an assassin who normally works under separation of mind and body could fall into that moment easily as soon as he realizes mind and body had acted as one.

Maybe the developers were trying to be a bit different, not having someone look at the blood on his hands and realizing he needed to change. Instead, create someone who thinks nothing of the blood that's been on his hands, but realizes for all the life he's taken away, he never added anything positive to the world. Except his own son. Who then wanted to follow in his footsteps. So no regrets for being an assassin or even killing the ones who killed Irikah, but a different kind of regret. One that stems from realizing you do not have time to make it right.

Apparently, Thane thought leaving Kolyat with his aunts and uncles would give his son a sense of stability, but the fact that Kolyat found a collection of Thane's things prematurely and left his family to then pursue a life of crime leads me to believe Kolyat did not have a stable nor happy upbringing after Thane left. Interesting that Thane never thought to correct his mistake with Kolyat until he realized his son was following a dark path. Perhaps he never viewed it as a mistake until that happened.

[lazuli]

kaimanaMM wrote...

I'd still like to know why and when Thane's illness was decided upon as I think there are any number of other ways to convey his change through the story.

The cynic in me thinks his illness is an easy way to have one less variable in ME3, but the English major in me disagrees.  Kepral's syndrome puts a time limit on our pious little assassin, paving the path for meaningful redemption in his loyalty mission, and ensuring that any romances with Thane will have a decidedly different flavor than dalliances with the other sharpshooter alien on the squad.

[J4N3_M3]

I don't think that Kolyat's upbringing was unhappy. His childhood just lacked his father. I mean, he lost his mother. He yelled at his father at the "funeral", told him to stop them. To not let them take her away. And his father just let it happen. And after that, his father just went away too. I can imagine this being very tough for a kid and therefore putting all the blame on his dad. Like Thane said, it's a situation that can't be solved with a few words. They really need to work this out and I feel like Thane is doing his best to do that. Kolyat seems like a good guy who is just lost in this galaxy and doesn't know his place.

If they can cure Thane, then sure, why not. I'd rather want him enter some sort of new treatment the Hanar discovered which starts to prolong his life and eventually leads to a cure for him and all Drell. I don't need a cure by the end of ME3. They could certainly make an open end for that if you ask me. I wouldn't mind.

Personally, I don't really care if other people like the character Thane or not. I do believe, the Devs brought him into the game for a reason and we will see where it goes in ME3.

[Tavanaka]

Someone posted this song over in the Thane group. And I knew I had to do this.

Modifié par Tavanaka, 21 juillet 2010 - 11:12 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

J4N3_M3 wrote...
...

Personally, I don't really care if other people like the character Thane or not. I do believe, the Devs brought him into the game for a reason and we will see where it goes in ME3.

Exactly.

[Pacifien]

Tavanaka wrote...

Someone posted this song over in the Thane group. And I knew I had to do this.

The real recruitment mission of Thane?

For some reason, I think of the Dance of the Axe Gang from Kung Fu Hustle as being more appropriate for Thane. Maybe the Dance of the Batarian Slavers after they finished up with Irikah.

Okay, yes, maybe my humor is just a little sick. But the Dance of the Axe Gang is awesome.

[goofygoff]

*delurk*

J4N3_M3 wrote...

I don't need a cure by the end of ME3. They could certainly make an open end for that if you ask me. I wouldn't mind. 

 
Exactly.  I’d be fine with an ambiguous ending.  When you romance Thane, it’s quite obvious by the end that he has something to live and fight for. That, alone, could extend his remaining time.    He also says that he’d planned to die in Dantius Towers, but Shepard’s arrival was “an intervention by the gods”. So not only does he want to live, he believes he’s meant to.  I think it’s logical to assume that since he’d previously resigned himself to dying, he never sought treatment for his condition.  Obviously things have changed and that could also buy him more time.  Enough that those of us who wish to believe he’s eventually cured post-ME3 don’t have our hopes cruelly dashed, and those that don’t can believe he spent his few remaining days with Kolyat and/or Shepard.
 
I just don’t understand how he’s so easily written off for ME3. He says has 8 to 12 months before he starts showing symptoms, not that he only has that much time left.  If the end of ME2 is any indication, I’m assuming we’ll be starting off immediately where we left off.  And if that’s the case, put away the respirators, people!   

[PowerfulWarrioress]

WOW! I can't believe I read all 112 pages of this! WOOHOO! New record for me! LOL



I'm a fan of Thane. He is a very intriguing character and I wished they would tell us more about his past. At least, give more details like more DLC or comic? That will be cool. This is so funny! When I first saw Thane in the trailers and pictures, I thought he was going to be this cold-hearted assassin that didn't talk too much. Pure shock when I heard his story as I finished my playthrough of ME2. He is romantic, calm, friendly, and still mysterious in a way. This character made me kill off Kaiden( I love this guy so don't bite me) on my latest ME1 playthrough so my character can romance Thane in ME2.



Thane has really surprised me and I hope ME3 includes him!

[Pacifien]

Thane is one of the few squadmates who I think would provide a story that suits comic books really well. But I have an extremely harsh opinion of what they've done so far in the comic book field. I'm a comic book snob.

Wonder how a DLC would work similar to Leiliana's Song. ME2 uses such a different approach than DA.

[PowerfulWarrioress]

I never played DA so I don't know what that is. Sorry.



If they can't do it, all right but it would have been cool to see though.



Still wondering about that romance pack. Hmmm that is interesting.

[Pacifien]

PowerfulWarrioress wrote...
I never played DA so I don't know what that is. Sorry.

If they can't do it, all right but it would have been cool to see though.

Still wondering about that romance pack. Hmmm that is interesting.

DA -> Dragon Age. That other Bioware game.

Anyway, Dragon Age is more like the older Bioware games, Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. They were particularly well suited for additional content that worked outside of the main game, and that's what Leiliana's Song is, a game that takes place before the main game.

Now, a DLC focusing on Thane that takes place during the game might be possible. I took the Leiliana DLC as testing the waters, seeing how a DLC that only concentrates on one character from your party. Because if they made a DLC that only concentrated on Thane, you get the fans of all the other squadmates crying foul that their character wasn't given the same treatment.

I personally feel if the developers had a great story set in ME that they wanted to tell that's only going to concentrate on a handful of the squadmates, they should do it and ignore the outrage of the forums. And I think Thane is a good candidate for more story.

Romance pack holds no appeal to me, because they'd essentially have to make a romance pack where your love interests can be interchanged with five other characters. It's like the Kaidan/Ashley interchange for Horizon. Not much difference between the two.

People wonder how the love interests will be treated in ME3. When you think about possibly keeping the base, Thane will call you "siha" if you're in a romance, but "Shepard" otherwise. I think really that's how they should reflect the romances, not really going out of their way to focus on the relationship, but demonstrating that your love interest will speak to you differently and possibly confront your choices more openly than they would otherwise.

[cindalkitty]

goofygoff wrote...
think it’s logical to assume that since he’d previously resigned himself to dying, he never sought treatment for his condition.

/delurk also

When Shepard asks about his condition, he says something like it's being seen to... I think.  Not 100% clear on that, though I can restore to a previous save and run his recruitment mission again to find out >.>  And then after, or as an alternate option in the same conversation, Shepard asks if there is something they can do and cites the Normandy's state-of-the-art med bay, to which he responds with something like "if the top hanar scientists haven't found a cure, I doubt your medic can."  In that regard, I think he has sought some kind of treatment.  I'll reload that save point.  And please do not think I'm nit picking at all.  I'm only here because the character left me with a ton of questions, so as much information as I can get makes me happy.

goofygoff wrote...
He says [he] has 8 to 12 months before he starts showing symptoms, not that he only has that much time left.  If the end of ME2 is any indication, I’m assuming we’ll be starting off immediately where we left off.  And if that’s the case, put away the respirators, people!   

Thank you for clearing that up.  I've spent the past couple of days roaming through 112 pages of this in my spare time and I was starting to wonder if I'd remembered it wrongly from the amount of posts I'd seen where I got the impression the posters expected him to just fall over dead somewhere between months 8 and 12.  Reading up on Keplar's Syndrome in my codex, it seems like a really, really horrible and prolonged way to die D:  First the lungs, and then spreading throughout the body.  Kinda made me think of Lou Gehrig's disease.

Speaking of respirators, I noticed a couple of days ago on the Cerberus Network News that the volus scientist that created the respirator ma-thingers that the turians were using has gone missing. dun Dun DUN?  I imagine my Shepard has him in the cargo bay with Grunt right now, being persuasive.



Weighing in on whether or not Thane should make it into the sequel...

First:  Mass Effect Characters in general
I was surprised by the fact that, even prior to coming here, I gave enough of a damn about a character in the Mass Effect universe to even take into consideration if it should continue on into the next game and, in addition, if it should be cured.  I will growl if this feeling is dismissed as mere fangirliness.  I'm going to be an elitist ****** now and say both Mass Effect games are seriously lacking in character development and interaction - I enjoy the story so far, to be sure, but I'm the sort of girl that needs some kind of immersion to go with shooting alien or fantasy zombies in the face and Dragon Age spoiled the crap out of me in that regard.  Then someone bought Mass Effect for me and I... yeah.  I played it, but stared at it like it had two heads the entire time.  Garrus and the curiosity of how my choices in ME would effect ME2 got me to grab the sequel.  And I am so glad I did.  It's like a totally different game.  However, the majority of the characters are still very... not compelling in the least.  

I won't go down a list of each character's flaws, but I will say that, aside from Thane, only Mordin really stood out to me as having any sort of weight to him.  And then maybe Garrus and Tali - boy's got some issues and girl's a little shady.  Adorable, but shady.


Second:  Character integrity and storytelling
Again, I was surprised that it occurred to me that the most fitting end for this character might be to not alter the path I perceived him being on... so that the memory we're left with of him is a vivid one... However, as has been stated a few times in this thread:  What makes Thane so awesome is not the fact that he's dying.  Dying gives us a sense of urgency, a sense of tragedy, but what I enjoy about him are his moments of vivid recollection, his spirituality, his character's point of view, discipline, pride, sniper rifle, and how he seems to truly appreciate the galaxy, the things in it, and each moment he's alive... and the subtle (and some not-so-subtle) moments where it is revealed that he still struggles (killing the batarians the way he did, the fact that he'll be less than gentle with Mouse (though he'll apologize if you do), the way he recollects moments in his life, and, if you're in a romance, when he abuses your table).  After listing all of that, a terminal illness starts to feel a little like overkill (...no pun intended).

In the end, it came down to this for me -  Which would I hate more: 
1.) potentially taking away from his character to write themselves out of the corner they've put themselves in
or
2.) being presented with what I consider to be the only remotely compelling character in the series so far (with possible exception of Mordin) and then being left with so many unanswered questions.

1... heavy risk, but the priiize?  I would hate 2 more.  In addition, I... have faith in BioWare.  Excuse me while I knock on wood.  I mean tot say, I think he is in good hands if they decide to write him into being able to survive.  I base this off of the ginormous difference I perceived between KOTOR I and KOTOR II's execution (the sequel was handled by Obsidian).  I also base this off of Dragon Age: Origins as well, and the overall story, so far, for Mass Effect.  I think BioWare presents good stories.


Third:  Mass Appeal
This one actually bothers me a little bit.  I will venture to guess that the target demographic is male, and likely heterosexual judging from the fact that I can have girl on girl romance, but no guy on guy romance.  Even though Garrus didn't go into ME2 as the sniper he was in ME1 (despite his recruitment mission), he still has Bro Appeal.  He's my bro.  He's stuck it out with me when Kaidan/Ashely didn't, and others can't or won't.  And he survived ME2 with me (No Man Left Behind FTW!).  Thane may have filled Garrus' sniper shoes, but I get the impression Male Shepard lacked the conversation options that femSheps have which expose all the things that make Thane so freaking awesome... with possible exception of the beginning of Thane's loyalty mission.  Nothing like playing good cop/bad cop to really form a bond, amirite?  And Jacob's more of a overt tough guy/loyal soldier sort of bro.  He even does a bro shake/back pat.  Aaand Kasumi was given the ninja skills that Thane should have gotten instead of biotics, in my opinion, but I'm also of the opinion that the DLC crew paid by Cerberus aren't so likely to be around in the next game. 

In any case, I would be curious how the target demographic ranks Thane.

Theoretically, if they were looking to cut characters, they could drop Garrus and Kasumi for Thane.


Fourth: Shepard's Fate
From a romance standpoint - Even if Thane were cured... What's going to happen to Shepard?  How do you save, or doom, the entire galaxy and go on to lead a normal sort of life where you could move to a desert planet and have a ton of lizard babies with your assassin monk lover, and not have people constantly searching for you to resolve issues, or, alternately, trying to hunt you down and kill you?  Like Grunt points out - if we've just killed the most dangerous thing in the galaxy... that just leaves us.   I suppose you could go the Ben Kenobi route.  Hell, Tatooine was a gigantic desert.  Perfect!  But, I did also just come from Dragon Age--  I suppose I won't spoil that for anyone.  I also -heaven help me- am having flashbacks to the end of the third Matrix movie.  Even though Shepard was brought back from the dead, I don't think this means s/he's entitled to live through the end.  The fact that it's possible for Shepard to not make it through ME2 reinforces the possibility that s/he could still die as a plot device.

Would we still want to save him if our Shepard wasn't going to survive?  If we weren't romantically involved?

My only answer to that is this: romance aside - Why develop a save for Thane if there's not going to be a Shepard?  I guess it depends on the end of the game.  Assuming life will continue on in the universe, I think Thane could travel the galaxy righting wrongs and bringing light, sort of like Caine from Kung Fu.  And I think I'd be perfectly content with that.


I think I've gone on long enough.


TL;DR?
Hi, I'm new.

[PowerfulWarrioress]

Yeah, I understand how people will cry foul because of that. That will only mean comic and that will be harder for me to get but I will see what Bioware does first.



Well, I don't know what they are pulling with the Romance pack. I'm just eager to see what they do with it. I agree about the love interest taking a more interest in what you have done and speak to you differently, maybe have crewmates making comments. That would be amusing.

[Pacifien]

Heyo, cindalkitty.



Thane might have looked into some treatment when he was diagnosed, but how seriously he would have researched the treatments was probably greatly dependent on his desires to live or die. And certainly by the time we meet him, he's firmly in the death camp. All of that changes, even if you don't romance him. He realizes he still has time to be there for his son. There's still one more mission that needs him. And with the romance, one more person who loves him. The desire to live does wonders for how much you're willing to invest in treatment.



As for Thane's appeal, he was specifically designed for the female demographic. Good article about the process here. I think concentrating so hard on trying to appeal to that demographic led to a few missteps on Thane's potential. I don't think there were any women involved in the writing process, so all the men could do is write what they think women wanted. That makes certain characterizations get a little heavy handed.



I always thought Thane's biotics were thrown into his character development late in the game. There's evidence in the game files that Mordin was supposed to be a biotic. Don't know what caused the switch with Thane other than as they developed the other characters and possible switched Mordin to a tech, it left a hole for another biotic in the team.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Does it creep anyone else that only a romanced Thane will be cured? I know it sounds far-fetched, but it's still a possibility regardless.

[J4N3_M3]

can anyone fill me in on the romance pack? what have i missed? O.O

[cindalkitty]

Pacifien wrote...

As for Thane's appeal, he was specifically designed for the female demographic. Good article about the process here. I think concentrating so hard on trying to appeal to that demographic led to a few missteps on Thane's potential. I don't think there were any women involved in the writing process, so all the men could do is write what they think women wanted. That makes certain characterizations get a little heavy handed.

That article was entertaining.  I'd recalled reading somewhere in this thread that he was specifically designed for the ladies... and when I openly balked at the fact that I can pick my armor colorization and casual wear, have pet fish and a space hamster and model ships to fill up my Commander Barbie Shepard Dreamcabin, my guy friend said it was likely to appeal to girls <_<... but it still makes me wonder.  Afterall, I think Garrus appeals to both.  I would hope that, if they did agonize over making him as pretty as possible to women visually, not to mention the depth of the character and how well animated it is, they wouldn't scrap the work that went into him in the third game.  Alternately, maybe killing him would help save them from having to keep up the ideal they've achieved.  But who knows. 


One thing maybe someone can help clear up for me:

Thane distinguishes the actions of the body from that of the soul.  In this regard, his years as a hired gun leave him spotless... don't they?   He tells Shepard that what made the Batarian deaths different is that it was his conscious decision to hunt them down and make them suffer.  However -

1.) Technically, wouldn't their attack on his family be considered sufficient enough for his reaction to be seen as self-defense?  Or at least in defense of his son?  Ok, maybe not, especially since he admits to... dragging it out.  And these guys were the "trigger men" ... like he is.  They were hired.  Like he was.

2.) Assuming he is telling the truth when he says their deaths were the *one* time he acted on his own, why does he keep referring to the evils he's done, the things he's taken from the galaxy, and to himself as the wicked?  Killing Nassana, well, she was a contract.  He should be guilt free there, but he's praying for himself.  And how long does it take to atone for murdering a bunch of Batarians anyway?


edit: played through his recruitment mission again.  First conversation after has both the life expectancy in it (if you investigate) as well as the hanar genetic engineering program which he says he doesn't believe he'll live long enough to benefit from, and the option to ask if there's anything they can do for him on the Normandy (v. noting that he seems calm.  You can only pick one or the other, and both will end the conversation).

Modifié par cindalkitty, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:16 .

[Flamewielder]

"Conscience has no place in the heart of an assassin"

I found Thane was a great hommage to my favorite assassin movies:

The Professional (Luc Besson)
The Replacement Killers (Antoine Fuqua)

Visual elements of Thane's recruitment and loyalty missions borrowed strongly from The Replacement Killers in particular. Both movies tell the story of an assassin who wants out, even if their reasons are different from Thane's.