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[Kimihiko]

TheSweetGirl wrote...

Question of the Day:

I do kept seeing people confused about Thane's philsophical views and some people call him "contradictory". Can everyone explain?


Edit: Those gifs are

Sometimes, I hate that everyone here talks in english XD, I have sooo much things to said, but trying to explain myself in english is dificult, so.. I hate it really, maybe someone can explain it to you, someone that talks in english

[Kimihiko]

Thanks a lot my sweet Hainkpe X3



and offtopic, can someone tell me, who the hell I have to take with in the bartender thing in Omega, for hear Thane speaking, I take grunt, mordin, zaeed, garrus...and they talk!! and I want to hear what Thane can said in that moment.

[kaimanaMM]

TheSweetGirl wrote...

Question of the Day:

I do kept seeing people confused about Thane's philsophical views and some people call him "contradictory". Can everyone explain?

In the case that he doesn't feel guilty about the people he's killed, he's very clear.  His employers killed them, his body was simply the tool used to complete the task.  And, he says that Drell minds are different than human.  The Drell see their body as a vessel, one that is not always under their control.  Their interpretation of the soul being distinct from the body is incredibly literal.  Some actions Thane's body performs are not always the result of conscious choices.  

Can it be seen as a convenient way to explain away the blood on his hands?  Surely.  

However, Thane takes responsibility for those actions his body performs that are the result of conscious choices. He made the choice to hunt down and kill the Batarians that killed his wife.  He knowingly made their deaths horrible and painful to exact his retribution.  Does he feel remorse or guilt for killing them?  I would wager to say no.  In my mind, he feels responsible for the choice to kill them and how it ultimately reflects on his soul.

Modifié par kaimanaMM, 19 septembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[hanar05]

TheSweetGirl wrote...

I wish I could join in this but I suck at drawing. XDDD

JECWSU wrote...

I would love to join in too, but sadly I can't draw.

Aww, that's a shame. I would have loved for you two to join!
Thanks for the interest though!!

[Fiery Phoenix]

I like the way you put it, Hainkpe. Very true.

[TheSweetGirl]

He chose to kill those who hurt and killed Irikah. Those are the only deaths on his conscience because he made them suffer. He was taught to bring death quickly and minimize suffering, he let them linger. He tortured them. He exacted a terrible revenge and did terrible things in the process. I think a part of him felt justified in doing so. This is what he feels guilt for.

For me, his atonement isn't for the acts he did as an assassin but rather the acts he did as a grieving husband. Thane is a character that saw what he truly was capable of and I think it scared and changed him. Very few people can really ever look into their own darkness and NOT come out unchanged. He is a man that knows his abilities and knows what he can do.

And what is worse is that the letter kinda of implies that Irikah's death was drawn out like she was tortured or maybe even more than that. Damn Batarians. Who knows what they did? But all we know is...Irikah's death was anything but slow. (If Koylat was there and hearing all of that, it's no wonder he has issues)

You can't blame what Thane did. It's a natural reaction to want revenge but we have to control what our body desires.

And I agree, Thane probably shook himself up with what he did. We always see him calm and collected. He has all this self-control and then he lost it when Irikah died. He scared himself...maybe even began to loathe himslf for it.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Thane's in an extraordinary person. If someone else were in his shoes, they would have probably shot themselves for good.



I am extremely curious to see how his character is going to be handled in ME3.

[OBakaSama]

I like the current topic (moral philosophy, wooo....).

I would put it in these terms: Thane as an assassin is not morally responsible for the deaths, but he is causally responsible; Thane as a grieving husband is morally and causally responsible for the deaths of his wife's killers.

As Thane puts it in-game, the Drell have a very literal distinction between mind/soul and body very much in line with Cartesian dualism I would be tempted to say.

[kaimanaMM]

Hainkpe wrote...

For me, his atonement isn't for the acts he did as an assassin but rather the acts he did as a grieving husband. Thane is a character that saw what he truly was capable of and I think it scared and changed him. Very few people can really ever look into their own darkness and NOT come out unchanged. He is a man that knows his abilities and knows what he can do.

I actually respect him for that.

I respect and admire him for it.  

Too many people see Thane as a simple killer with a guilty conscience. 

Yes, he is a killer.  Even an indiscriminate one (in the sense that he will assassinate his target, regardless of who or what it is when given the order to do so).  But the only blood on his hands, in his eyes, belongs to the Batarians that killed his wife.

I also think that moment was a turning point for him.  Somewhat of a 'Stare too long into the abyss and the abyss stares into you' situation.  He could have easily become a monster, he's certainly capable of terrible things.  But he didn't and he isn't.  He knows who and what he is.  

I also think, in that moment (or very shortly after) he stopped mourning Irikah.  I think he continued for a time to mourn the family that he lost - Irikah was dead, Kolyat was sent away and he was ultimately alone, his hope for "normal life" gone.  But as for personally not being over Irikah's death, I think he accepted that his killing those who killed her was karma in its truest sense.

[TheSweetGirl]

I love Thane's respect for the Hanar and the fact that the Hanar are like he said: Regret their need for him. I like the Hanar too( so polite and formal XDD). I think the Hanar's used him for like protection rather than...kill this man for bribing me or kill this one for being nosy...like what he probably got when Hanar let him go from the contract to raise his family.



That's what I think and I think it is cute that he grew close to them.

[Fiery Phoenix]

From my own observation at least, a surprisingly large number of people don't really understand Thane, hence why they just call him a dying assassin who's no different than a walking gun and move on.



I admit I wasn't too different; until I imported my FemShep and romanced him (it was intentional since I have zero romantic interest in Garrus and Jacob). Since then, I've romanced him three times on three different playthroughs (same FemShep from ME1 though). He's just that awesome.

[kaimanaMM]

Hainkpe wrote...

Personally, I think Thane sees his illness as his punishment, that he deserves it because of what he did. His going on despite it, in face of it, is his atonement.

I wonder when Thane was diagnosed with Kepral's Syndrome.  In my mind's eye I keep seeing Thane going in for a routine physical and being told by an emotionless Hanar doctor that his lungs have already started to deteriorate.

If I leave out the naughty bits of where my imagination goes when thinking of Thane, shirtless, leaning with one hip against an exam table, his back unobtrusively to the wall, looking pensive and all serious, the harsh glare of incandescents making his stripes look stark against his green coloring.  Maybe he rubs his chin a bit, wondering what could be taking so long for a rather mundane visit to the doctor ...

Where was I?  I literally have lost my train of thought.

[Fiery Phoenix]

kaimanaMM wrote...

Hainkpe wrote...

Personally, I think Thane sees his illness as his punishment, that he deserves it because of what he did. His going on despite it, in face of it, is his atonement.

I wonder when Thane was diagnosed with Kepral's Syndrome.  In my mind's eye I keep seeing Thane going in for a routine physical and being told by an emotionless Hanar doctor that his lungs have already started to deteriorate.

If I leave out the naughty bits of where my imagination goes when thinking of Thane, shirtless, leaning with one hip against an exam table, his back unobtrusively to the wall, looking pensive and all serious, the harsh glare of incandescents making his stripes look stark against his green coloring.  Maybe he rubs his chin a bit, wondering what could be taking so long for a rather mundane visit to the doctor ...

Where was I?  I literally have lost my train of thought.

There are no rules of architecture for a castle in the clouds, so take it easy, but take it!

[TheSweetGirl]

Before we lose ourselves in the world of shirtless Thane....OH CRAP TOO LATE!!



-__- I toally lost my thought. Great XDDDDDD



Wait, it is back!



Did you guys get the impression when Thane talks to Shepard that he was getting a feel for her personality and maybe was alittle shocked about how she can be concerned (If you choose Paragon options, I think) about him?

[Fiery Phoenix]

I did.

[TheSweetGirl]

Hainkpe wrote...

TheSweetGirl wrote...

Before we lose ourselves in the world of shirtless Thane....OH CRAP TOO LATE!!

-__- I toally lost my thought. Great XDDDDDD

Wait, it is back!

Did you guys get the impression when Thane talks to Shepard that he was getting a feel for her personality and maybe was alittle shocked about how she can be concerned (If you choose Paragon options, I think) about him?

Definately. It also appeared that it warmed him to her. When he first speaks with her, he is quite arrogant. ("Well here I am." then "What would you like to discuss?") and condescending but then she gives as good as she takes (in the paragon path at least), "I was told it was impossible to get to Ilos too." He turns and softly chuckles says, "Fair point. You have certainly made a career doing to impossible." I love that moment. The facade dropped and at that moment, you saw him, who he was and what he believed in. Then he tells her he is dying and to me, it looked like he was surprised by Shepards answer. "I hadn't heard that. Is there anything I can do?" Sightly taken back at the unexpected.

For me, it was that moment when I liked Thane. He is a wonderful character with so many complexities but so simple as well. Whomever came up with him, they did one heck of a job. Lovingly detailed.

Is it bad that I have all his lines memorized? LOL

Thane: She cares? =D

XDD Awww

Yeah when he says, "Well, here I am." It is like he is challenging her.

She is like, unfazed by it XDDDD

No, you are not bad for remebering his lines

[cindalkitty]

Unfortunately, I don't know a whole lot about philosophy.  In this case, however, I think philosophy might be the wrong term in regard to how Thane acts.

In fantasy worlds, philosophies can be based off of currently accepted models and theories, or be all their own, as it fits the story or character.  It's easier to fudge on philosophy.

When making a character, though, some idea of psychology helps.  We're presented with a religion and a philosophy, but it's filtered through Thane's character.  So, it is sort of like how a group of people can profess to liking the color blue (this represents our philosophy), but everyone's description of the color would probably vary (due to their different perspectives).

Psychologically, I think Thane can compartmentalize aspects of his life and personality very well.  Disturbingly well.  This is probably something characteristic of most drell (though he does say some of his people can become lost in their solipsism), but especially for someone like Thane who has been trained to be a killer.  In this way, I think he is able to make such an easy distinction between the actions of his body and what it is his soul wills, and how he is able to become so easily lost in his battle sleep -- provided something doesn't happen to cause him to... "become detached."

As Thane says, he knows how easy it is for one person to lose himself in the galaxy, despite how small the galaxy is.

I think his eventual warming to Shepard comes after he snaps out of his battle sleep, and his initial surliness toward Shepard was based off of several things...

One being Shepard's reputation.  Even if you're full on paragon, the game treats Shepard like a celebrity - sensationalized and discussed in the news, and the news spins things - nevermind that she's working for Cerberus...  So

When Thane says "the measure of an individual can be difficult to discern through actions alone" I think he's making it clear that he knows about Shepard and the rumors surrounding her, and of course he elaborates using the present situation: "take you, for instance.  All this destruction, chaos..."

As a note, if you fail his loyalty mission, he says  "Entropy wins.  Entropy always wins."  (entropy being disorder, chaos).

I get the sense Thane's not a big fan of Chaos.

Chaos surrounds Shepard.

So hell yeah, he's challenging her when he steps up and gives the "Well, here I am" intense lizard stare.


Secondly, he probably knows if Shepard is looking for him, then he's not allowed to quit just yet.  He was prepared to die.  He was prepared for that to be his last mission.  He's tired and just wants to go to bed.

Shepard's interruption is not  a welcome one, I think.

Additionally, if you take a certain conversation path, he'll say:

"You'd like me to protect humans I've never met, from aliens no one knows anything about, by going to a place no one's ever returned from?" (teehee)

And then he chills and goes into the "this was to be my last job" bit.

And if you choose the renegade bit in his debriefing with Jacob, he'll remind you that he volunteered for this mission and he can still leave.  In the beginning, I don't think he's terribly happy with the situation.


I wonder at what point, exactly, he wakes up.

Modifié par cindalkitty, 20 septembre 2010 - 12:06 .

[TheSweetGirl]

^ Yeah, he did seem to dislike Shepard's not-so-subtle entrance. Shooting up the place and stuff.



Hmmm if he did felt her entrance to be unwelcome, after he realizes that s/he is bringing him for a suicide mission.



Like if you pick the options where Shepard says, "They say it is a suicide mission. I intend to prove them wrong."



He goes "A suicide mission. Yes, that will do nicely." (I think that is his exact words.)



But yeah, I usually pick the paragon choices (with my Canon Shepard who has all white armor and everything) It seems if you take the paragon path, he seems to be less...challenging from my point of view. This is just my thought there.

[OBakaSama]

@ cindalkitty: I was using 'philosophy' in its academic sense rather than a more common, and almost entirely unrelated, sense just to clarify things. The earlier discussion was an instance of moral philosophy concerning responsibility which I find interesting having studied it for the last couple of years. I was merely restating the position outlined using academic philosophical terms. Come to think of it, Thane's, or more correctly the Drell's, understanding of mind and body might be closer to a Socratic or Platonic sense.... It doesn't change anything, academic philosophy does nothing of the sort. I just think of me as thinking aloud.

Modifié par OBakaSama, 20 septembre 2010 - 01:46 .

[cindalkitty]

Oh...I'm sorry.    My post wasn't directed at you, or even at any one person, just the question posed by SweetGirl. I wasn't at all trying to debate anything.

Modifié par cindalkitty, 20 septembre 2010 - 02:01 .

[hanar05]

Hainkpe wrote...
Then he tells her he is dying