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[Saibh]

goofygoff wrote...

Raokin wrote...

What makes you think he falls in love with Shepard no matter what?

The fact that he calls all FemSheps 'Siha'.  But even more telling, to me, is that he doesn't reveal what it means to a non-romanced Shep. 

I think the reason he keeps it to himself, in that case, is that he doesn't want to reveal his feelings if he knows they are unrequited.

Oh, can I point out that, if you dump Thane for someone else, he'll say something along the lines of "I hope you don't mind if I carry you in my heart". With the little bit of affection she's showed him (you know, saying "I'm here for you, whatever you need"), he gets pretty attached.

[General Ashous]

Yeah, I think he want's to keep his feelings to himself as he doesn't want to feel foolish if Shep doesn't feel the same way. That's how I tend to feel yet still I do say my feelings and things always seem to go wrong. That's how Thane probably feels. He most likely doesn't want to end up like me, feeling sorry for yourself and slipping into depressiuon when he gets rejected and feeling foolish that he felt that way and feeling saddened at the thought he had seen a future with Shep but she doesn't feel the same way and so his heart is left battered and bruised. Take it from me, I know a lot about rejection and I know that he wouldn't tell a non-romance Shep because he wouldn't want to look foolish and wouldn't want the long and aching pain of rejection afterwards and the pity from Shep of her turning him down when he felt so strongly.

Modifié par General Ashous, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:55 .

[goofygoff]

Saibh wrote...

So, I have a question. I don't know if this is brought up often, but I feel it's appropriate to ask here:

What do you guys feel about Thane's conflicting loves in his whole "return to the sea" thing? Let me explain: in the Dossiers, we read his letter that was intended for Shepard after he died. He talks about waiting for her beyond the sea, right (no, no, stop melting in memory, I'm serious here )?

Okay, but what about Irikah? He is honestly religious and believes in the afterlife. Does he just think that, once Shepard dies, he'll just chill with both of them, one on each arm? Does he ignore Irikah in favor of Shepard? I mean, that's sort of a crappy thing to do to your wife, whom you made vows (I assume) to. If Shepard were in Irikah's place as Thane's first love, I'd be pretty pissed if I spent decades waiting for him only to find out he moved on and is waiting for his new lover. I mean, we married, had a kid, I died because of you.

I mean...how does he reconcile the two? This is something that always bothers me with anyone who has a first love that dies and they're honestly religious. How do you balance them both? To you betray one? Is it a betrayal? Does Thane think his soul will split up or something and go live with both of them on different, I dunno, heaven-islands (also, I'm not sure if Thane talks about the afterlife being in the sea or across it)?

Let me start off by saying, I'm not very religious myself, but I do have a theory about this.

I'd like to think that in the afterlife, relationships don't exactly apply (not how we view them anyway) in another plane of existence.  Things like jealously and possessiveness wouldn't be a factor, just the pure love you feel for person...whether it's a lover, a close friend or a family member.  Therefore, I can totally see Thane reuniting with both Irikah and Shepard without it being awkward, and not having to choose between his two loves.  The same would apply to Shepard, say if Kaidan died on Virmire or she lost someone previous to that. 

Hopefully that makes sense... 

Saibh wrote...

goofygoff wrote...

Raokin wrote...

What makes you think he falls in love with Shepard no matter what?

The fact that he calls all FemSheps 'Siha'.  But even more telling, to me, is that he doesn't reveal what it means to a non-romanced Shep. 

I think the reason he keeps it to himself, in that case, is that he doesn't want to reveal his feelings if he knows they are unrequited.

Oh, can I point out that, if you dump Thane for someone else, he'll say something along the lines of "I hope you don't mind if I carry you in my heart". With the little bit of affection she's showed him (you know, saying "I'm here for you, whatever you need"), he gets pretty attached.

Oooh yes...this, too!  Shows you how long it's been since I've dumped him (even then, I reloaded!!!) - I totally forgot about that line. 

Modifié par goofygoff, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:12 .

[Saibh]

goofygoff wrote...

Let me start off by saying, I'm not very religious myself, but I do have a theory about this.

I'd like to think that in the afterlife, relationships don't exactly apply (not how we view them anyway) in another plane of existence.  Things like jealously and possessiveness wouldn't be a factor, just the pure love you feel for person...whether it's a lover, a close friend or a family member.  Therefore, I can totally see Thane reuniting with both Irikah and Shepard without it being awkward, and not having to choose between his two loves.  The same would apply to Shepard, say if Kaidan died on Virmire or she lost someone previous to that. 

Hopefully that makes sense...

Now, I'll try to make this as least like a social commentary as any discussion about fictional religions can be. If this is the case, I dislike it on two counts:

One, in my idea of a perfect heaven, parts of your personality aren't lobotomized. I don't believe traits like jealousy or possessiveness are inherently bad in reasonable doses. Of course it's easy to go crazy with them, but they make you who you are. Heaven/the sea seems like almost malevolent if everyone must be reduced to Stepford versions of themselves. Besides that, I don't think believing in monogomy is a trait necessarily linked to jealousy. If that theory is true, Thane's religion must make the decision that monogomy is a selfish and bad trait to have, as it removes it.

Secondly, I don't share.

...

Well, I don't. Thane doesn't appreciate you pursuing other squadmates, and I think it's perfectly fair to expect the same level of commitment for him. The ultimate problem boiling down to he's already commited--Shepard isn't a part of Thane's religion, so this doesn't apply to her, but what about Thane? Maybe he honestly sees no problem with it--maybe he thinks, in "heaven", he doesn't have to choose. If that's the case, I really want to be able to say something about this in ME3.

I mean, I'd really hate it if it turns out Thane dumps you if you're unable to accept that in perfect heaven, he gets both of you. If that's the case, why can't Shepard pursue Kaidan as well? Who is he to call foul? 

That's my problem: I feel bad for Irikah, and accept that Thane doesn't love Shepard more than her, or less (perhaps, I don't know), but it makes him the bad guy for pursuing another woman unless there's a damn good reason.

[TheSweetGirl]

Saibh wrote...

So, I have a question. I don't know if this is brought up often, but I feel it's appropriate to ask here:

What do you guys feel about Thane's conflicting loves in his whole "return to the sea" thing? Let me explain: in the Dossiers, we read his letter that was intended for Shepard after he died. He talks about waiting for her beyond the sea, right (no, no, stop melting in memory, I'm serious here )?

Okay, but what about Irikah? He is honestly religious and believes in the afterlife. Does he just think that, once Shepard dies, he'll just chill with both of them, one on each arm? Does he ignore Irikah in favor of Shepard? I mean, that's sort of a crappy thing to do to your wife, whom you made vows (I assume) to. If Shepard were in Irikah's place as Thane's first love, I'd be pretty pissed if I spent decades waiting for him only to find out he moved on and is waiting for his new lover. I mean, we married, had a kid, I died because of you.

I mean...how does he reconcile the two? This is something that always bothers me with anyone who has a first love that dies and they're honestly religious. How do you balance them both? To you betray one? Is it a betrayal? Does Thane think his soul will split up or something and go live with both of them on different, I dunno, heaven-islands (also, I'm not sure if Thane talks about the afterlife being in the sea or across it)?

I'm just curious what you all think about it.

Hmmmm that is very interesting.

Though I don't think Irikah would be mad at Thane for loving Shepard nor does Thane throw her out to pasture. He loves them both. He will love to see Irikah again and apologize to her over and over for causing her death. These two women are important to him. One showed him the world and gave him a family. Another gave him hope desite the darkness he felt surrounded him and awoke him from his cold isolation he put himself in because of his guilt over his wife's death, believing in him to get out of it and forgive himself and make things right with his son.

[disconnect7]

You would think Shepard would have some view on the afterlife considering she/he dies. Shepard should know what happens after death right? Was Shepard's death just like "battle sleep"? If so, wouldn't that rule out the philosophy of an afterlife and going to the sea? No one knows what happens beyond the grave simply because no one can come back to tell the tale-except Shepard. And we are still none the wiser.

[goofygoff]

Saibh wrote...

Now, I'll try to make this as least like a social commentary as any discussion about fictional religions can be. If this is the case, I dislike it on two counts:

One, in my idea of a perfect heaven, parts of your personality aren't lobotomized. I don't believe traits like jealousy or possessiveness are inherently bad in reasonable doses. Of course it's easy to go crazy with them, but they make you who you are. Heaven/the sea seems like almost malevolent if everyone must be reduced to Stepford versions of themselves. Besides that, I don't think believing in monogomy is a trait necessarily linked to jealousy. If that theory is true, Thane's religion must make the decision that monogomy is a selfish and bad trait to have, as it removes it.

Secondly, I don't share.

...

Well, I don't. Thane doesn't appreciate you pursuing other squadmates, and I think it's perfectly fair to expect the same level of commitment for him. The ultimate problem boiling down to he's already commited--Shepard isn't a part of Thane's religion, so this doesn't apply to her, but what about Thane? Maybe he honestly sees no problem with it--maybe he thinks, in "heaven", he doesn't have to choose. If that's the case, I really want to be able to say something about this in ME3.

I mean, I'd really hate it if it turns out Thane dumps you if you're unable to accept that in perfect heaven, he gets both of you. If that's the case, why can't Shepard pursue Kaidan as well? Who is he to call foul? 

That's my problem: I feel bad for Irikah, and accept that Thane doesn't love Shepard more than her, or less (perhaps, I don't know), but it makes him the bad guy for pursuing another woman unless there's a damn good reason.

All fair points. 

I guess what it comes down to is that I, personally, have to believe my theory because if I don't, my own selfishness kicks in. 

And in that case, if personality traits carry over to the afterlife, well then my Shepard's just gonna have to cut a b****.  He said he would be waiting for her, after all.



But I definitely think even a Shepard who doesn't share Thane's view of the afterlife or even believe in one, would want to know what he believes will happen. 

[Saibh]

TheSweetGirl wrote...

Hmmmm that is very interesting.

Though I don't think Irikah would be mad at Thane for loving Shepard nor does Thane throw her out to pasture. He loves them both. He will love to see Irikah again and apologize to her over and over for causing her death. These two women are important to him. One showed him the world and gave him a family. Another gave him hope desite the darkness he felt surrounded him and awoke him from his cold isolation he put himself in because of his guilt over his wife's death, believing in him to get out of it and forgive himself and make things right with his son.

Well, sure. I'm not sure if he could ever honestly ask himself who he loves more, although I think I know; what I'm asking is, does he ultimately choose one or both? He's dying, he must think about death a lot. I guess the question is: does he choose Shepard, or has he chosen both? I know he says he'll wait for her, so if he only makes one choice, I think it's clear who he picks. But does he feel like he needn't choose?

Or does he avoid just thinking about it? I would. I think he feels he needs Shepard, and doesn't want to admit that he might be unfaithful to Irikah, if that's how he sees it. Or maybe there's some sort of religious reason he can get away with it, who knows?

EDIT: You know, believing in reincarnation would tidy things up considerably; however, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Modifié par Saibh, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

The reason Thane loves FemShep so much is because she brought him back to life, after ten years of destruction and tragedy. There is a reason he views her as Siha; One of the warrior-angels of the goddess Arashu. Fierce in wrath. A tenacious protector.



Thane was lost, but Shepard found him. And no, had Irikah been around, things wouldn't play out the same AT ALL.

[cindalkitty]

OHNOES.

That song will be stuck in my head all day again.

The... waiting for her across the sea thing... yeah, I admit, my initial thought was "Wait, what about Irikah?"

Then my immediate next thought was "OH NO YOU DON'T."  NO.  THERE WILL BE NO BOBBY DARIN.  NOT YET.  GODDAMNIT.  And my Shepard was all a-rage with "why didn't you get on the list?"

If I had to take it into account from my Shepard's point of view, it's the thought that counts, I suppose.  I don't know that she actually believes in an afterlife, despite how much Thane opened her eyes to eveything else.  Beyond that, she'd probably assume, if there is a heaven (and if she does actually end up there) it would be full of love, and there is no room for awkwardness or jealousy.  It wouldn't be Thane sitting in some hut on the beach being fanned by all his ****es for all eternity.

Modifié par cindalkitty, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Saibh]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

The reason Thane loves FemShep so much is because she brought him back to life, after ten years of destruction and tragedy. There is a reason he views her as Siha; One of the warrior-angels of the goddess Arashu. Fierce in wrath. A tenacious protector.

Thane was lost, but Shepard found him. And no, had Irikah been around, things wouldn't play out the same AT ALL.

But isn't that sort of a...dick move on Thane's part? I mean, he married Irikah. As far as we know, he pledged himself to her, in the way that we use the term "marriage". She died because of him--by his own religion, she's most likely waiting for him across the sea.

And then he dies and is like "Oh, yes, about being married and all..." It's not really that Shepard is in the wrong (she might not even believe in the afterlife), it's how Thane reconciles his loves. Maybe he's honestly thought to himself "I pick Shepard", but, as I said, that's cruel to do to Irikah, who has no other. I said earlier, if Shepard were in Irikah's shoes as Thane's dead first love, I'd be pissed, and rightfully so.

Modifié par Saibh, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[cindalkitty]

Saibh wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

The reason Thane loves FemShep so much is because she brought him back to life, after ten years of destruction and tragedy. There is a reason he views her as Siha; One of the warrior-angels of the goddess Arashu. Fierce in wrath. A tenacious protector.

Thane was lost, but Shepard found him. And no, had Irikah been around, things wouldn't play out the same AT ALL.

But isn't that sort of a...dick move on Thane's part? I mean, he married Irikah. As far as we know, he pledged himself to her, in the way that we use the term "marriage". She died because of him--by his own religion, she's most likely waiting for him across the sea.

And then he dies and is like "Oh, yes, about being married and all..." It's not really that Shepard is in the wrong (she might not even believe in the afterlife), it's how Thane reconciles his loves. Maybe he's honestly thought to himself "I pick Shepard", but, as I said, that's cruel to do to Irikah, who has no other. I said earlier, if Shepard were in Irikah's shoes as Thane's dead first love, I'd be pissed, and rightfully so.

That way of thinking, though, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  It's like a 6 degrees of separation thing... it's through our conncections to others and their connections to others, that we are all somehow connected to Kevin Bacon.  I've loved more than once, and the people I have loved probably have loved others as well.  Do I suddenly not see these people in heaven because I never married them?  What about my family?  And everyone they've loved.  Is it a choice?  Or is it a state of being?

Modifié par cindalkitty, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:58 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Saibh wrote...

But isn't that sort of a...dick move on Thane's part? I mean, he married Irikah. As far as we know, he pledged himself to her, in the way that we use the term "marriage". She died because of him--by his own religion, she's most likely waiting for him across the sea.

And then he dies and is like "Oh, yes, about being married and all..." It's not really that Shepard is in the wrong, it's how Thane reconciles his loves. Maybe he's honestly thought to himself "I pick Shepard", but, as I said, that's cruel to do to Irikah, who has no other. I said earlier, if Shepard were in Irikah's shoes as Thane's dead first love, I'd be pissed, and rightfully so.

Irikah is dead, and has been for ten years. Thane was strong enough to spend those ten years alone, without his son or wife, and knowing that he's facing an impending death.

I think it's similar to when a man's wife dies, and then he goes to marry another one after a while. This doesn't mean he no longer feels anything for his former wife; it's about staying in touch and having someone to share your life with, for both your sakes (especially when kids are involved). This isn't exactly the case with Thane, but it's not too different, really.

[Saibh]

cindalkitty wrote...

OHNOES.

That song will be stuck in my head all day again.

I am currently entertaining the idea of Shepard going on a date with Thane and then that song plays. And...well, I guess misery ensues.

[Saibh]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Irikah is dead, and has been for ten years. Thane was strong enough to spend those ten years alone, without his son or wife, and knowing that he's facing an impending death.

I think it's similar to when a man's wife dies, and then he goes to marry another one after a while. This doesn't mean he no longer feels anything for his former wife; it's about staying in touch and having someone to share your life with, for both your sakes (especially when kids are involved). This isn't exactly the case with Thane, but it's not too different, really.

Of course, but what does he believe happens after he dies? Does he see Irikah again? Does he tell her he loves another? Does he share himself between her and Shepard? It's not whether he's right about the afterlife, it's does he feel conflicted over loving Shepard? Doesn't he ever consider what happens when he dies?

cindalkitty wrote...

That way of thinking, though, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  It's like a 6 degrees of separation thing... it's through our conncections to others and their connections to others, that we are all somehow connected to Kevin Bacon.  I've loved more than once, and the people I have loved probably have loved others as well.  Do I suddenly not see these people in heaven because I never married them?  What about my family?  And everyone they've loved.  Is it a choice?  Or is it a state of being?

I honestly couldn't answer that, as we don't learn that much about Thane's idea of the afterlife. What I'm asking though, is does he believe that he's leaving Irikah to wait for him? It's not about him and Shepard, it's about him and Irikah. He may not love her as much as Shepard, but I still can't help but feel that's sort of a cruel thing to do to your wife. I mean, imagine getting Thane cured, and then dying in ME3. There's an afterlife, but ten years later, when he dies, he either never shows up to you, or has to explain how, even though he truly did love you, he moved on and picked someone else.

I'd be pissed.

[disconnect7]

It is my personal belief that a part of Thane died when Irikah was laid to rest in the sea. He has lived his life after her death with violence and revenge, believing that once he is dead it will be as if he never lived. Shepard resurrected that part of Thane that died with Irikah, and he is a better man because of it, better than the man he was before Irikah died. I also believe Irikah would be thankful to Shepard for this, for giving him happiness after so much darkness and loss.

[TheSweetGirl]

View the Afterlife as a different life...different plane of existence.

Like everything is renewed like for eternity, no emotion but love and compassion, understanding. Like your soul is pure once again. Like you're a kid again in a sense. Our souls are unbonded to flesh and bone.

Summary: You die and you entered into a new life(not reincarnation) where your soul stays for eternity with others together.

All right, Thane, Irikah, and Shepard have all passed away and they meet. In a place of purity and peace, you thinl Irikah is going to be like: How dare you? Is what Thane did in his life as flesh going to matter to her? She will be happy to see him. What Thane did is not something bad. I mean she has been dead for ten years...and in those ten years, Thane had reserved himself into a cold, isolated state so if you want to get technical, Shepard brought him back to life and he loves her.

He loves Irikah. He loves them both. And I think nothing they did is going to matter because they are together again.

Thane is not doing anything bad or evil. He loves them both and cares for them. He wishes to see the two women he loves across the sea.

(I don't know if I madew any sense. If I didn't, sorry)

Modifié par TheSweetGirl, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Saibh]

TheSweetGirl wrote...

View the Afterlife as a different life...different plane of existence.

Like everything is renewed like for eternity, no emotion but love and compassion, understanding. Like your soul is pure once again. Like you're a kid again in a sense. Our souls are unbonded to flesh and bone.

Summary: You die and you entered into a new life(not reincarnation) where your soul stays for eternity with others together.

All right, Thane, Irikah, and Shepard have all passed away and they meet. In a place of purity and peace, you thinl Irikah is going to be like: How dare you? Is what Thane did in his life as flesh going to matter to her? She will be happy to see him. What Thane did is not something bad. I mean she has been dead for ten years...and in those ten years, Thane had reserved himself into a cold, isolated state so if you want to get technical, Shepard brought him back to life and he loves her.

He loves Irikah. He loves them both. And I think nothing they did is going to matter because they are together again.

Thane is not doing anything bad or evil. He loves them both and cares for him. He wishes to see the two women he loves across the sea.

(I don't know if I madew any sense. If I didn't, sorry)

Eh, as I said earlier, heaven seems malevolent to me if it lobotimizes your personality. Love, jealousy, possessiveness--none of those things are inherently bad traits. A desire to be with Thane and for him to be only with you isn't evil; if that part of your personality is removed, I suppose Thane's heaven believes monogomy is evil and a trait to be purged.

I mean, who is Thane to tell you you can't pursue other squadmates when he himself plans to spend eternity with you and another woman? Heaven is ideal; if monogomy is considered a sinful trait in the afterlife, how can he say it isn't in life?

[goofygoff]

nvm - I felt bad about chopping someone's art without permission. 

Modifié par goofygoff, 30 septembre 2010 - 09:06 .

[cindalkitty]

Saibh wrote...

Of course, but what does he believe happens after he dies? Does he see Irikah again? Does he tell her he loves another? Does he share himself between her and Shepard? It's not whether he's right about the afterlife, it's does he feel conflicted over loving Shepard? Doesn't he ever consider what happens when he dies?

Kalihira, goddess of oceans and the afterlife.  Shepard can ask what oceans and the afterlife have to do with one another.  He says:

"Consider:  The ocean is full of life, yet it is not life as you and I know it. To survive there we must release our hold on land, accept a new way to live.  So it is with the death. The soul must accept its departure from the body…if it can't, it will be lost."

Ginormous metaphor?  Yes.  I'm sure it's left up to interpretation, but I think your answer lies in there.  Releasing one's hold on land - that transition from the earthly and material and all you've ever known as reality... into a new world.

He says he will wait for her across the sea, but that could only be a wish that she makes it to the other side safely.  Picturing some otherworldly representation of Thane at the shore of some other existance waiting for someone who never arrives is entirely depressing.  Good job, me.

However, who loves who more or less or when... I would assume, from what he said in regard to death, that these are concepts that may not have a place beyond death.  This is all speculation, though.  Much like speculating who he loves more or less, or even what marriage means to drell.  Even in Christian human terms, though, it ends with "til death do us part."

It seems unfair to call it a dick move on Thane's part without knowing any of those things:D

What we do know is that Thane is very spiritual and overall not prone to dick-moves.  I would give him the benefit of the doubt - that he knows what his religion, marriage, and afterlife all entails, and would not knowingly do anything that might go against that.

Modifié par cindalkitty, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

That sums it up nicely, Cindal.

[TheSweetGirl]

Yes, it does. Better than what I wrote. XDDDDD

[Saibh]

cindalkitty wrote...

Kalihira, goddess of oceans and the afterlife.  Shepard can ask what oceans and the afterlife have to do with one another.  He says:

"Consider:  The ocean is full of life, yet it is not life as you and I know it. To survive there we must release our hold on land, accept a new way to live.  So it is with the death. The soul must accept its departure from the body…if it can't, it will be lost."

Ginormous metaphor?  Yes.  I'm sure it's left up to interpretation, but I think your answer lies in there.  Releasing one's hold on land - that transition from the earthly and material and all you've ever known as reality... into a new world.

He says he will wait for her across the sea, but that could only be a wish that she makes it to the other side safely.  Picturing some otherworldly representation of Thane at the shore of some other existance waiting for someone who never arrives is entirely depressing.  Good job, me.

However, who loves who more or less or when... I would assume, from what he said in regard to death, that these are concepts that may not have a place beyond death.  This is all speculation, though.  Much like speculating who he loves more or less, or even what marriage means to drell.  Even in Christian human terms, though, it ends with "til death do us part."

It seems unfair to call it a dick move on Thane's part without knowing any of those things:D

What we do know is that Thane is very spiritual and overall not prone to dick-moves.  I would give him the benefit of the doubt - that he knows what his religion, marriage, and afterlife all entails, and would not knowingly do anything that might go against that.

Okay. I mean, I don't necessarily agree or disagree--we're told so little about his religion that I can't honestly make a judgment--but I was simply interested to know how you guys felt about it. It boils down to how his version of the afterlife works, really.

More than anything, I want Shepard to be able to ask about this.

Modifié par Saibh, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

If there is one person on the SR2 that knows what he's doing, it's Thane.



I don't know how to explain that, really. But you guys get it.

[General Ashous]

Thane always knows what he's doing. My theory is that he knows what he's doing because he has two sides of him telling him what to do and many experiences. He is compelled by a part that only cares about getting the job done but combine that with a spiritual and caring part and you get an unstoppable force that will stop at nothing to protect others and make sure justice is brought to the wicked. Therefore, he does reasearch and familiarises himself with everything that he may encounter on his assignments and the he knows how to combat it and give advice to people for his experiences. That's just my theory though and it's probably rubbish and makes no sense but I like it none the less.