16751 réponses à ce sujet

[Juliaxo]

It bothers me that Bioware felt the need to make him terminally ill in the first place. By their own admission they wanted to create an alien love interest to appeal specifically to women so why pull the "I'm dying" card with the character? My Fem!Sheps would have romanced him even if he didn't have a terminal illness because he's plenty compelling without it and from a character perspective they would prefer their love interest to live! I guess people could say if you don't like it romance Garrus. But it begs the question, if Garrus was already an option for females why go through the trouble to create Thane in the first place if their intent was always to kill him off?



And I do feel like killing Thane off would be the easy option for Bioware. It saves them from having to actually put some effort into further developing him as a character as well as any romantic storyline between him and Shepard. Keeping him alive would actually require some work on their part. I'm just hoping that since they went through the trouble to create this character they won't just toss him aside in ME3 like they did with Ash and Kaidan in ME2. It's rather disappointing to me if the only purpose they had in mind for Thane was to use him to force a sad end on the player for some cheap drama in ME3.

[Saibh]

JECWSU wrote...

It's true you do know he is dying when you start a relationship with him. That doesn't mean he is going to die. Nothing is set in stone. For all we know they never intended on letting him die. It could have been put in there for extra drama. They could have always planned on giving us a choice to cure him or not to.They could also give you a way to prolong his life. It doesn't have to be a cure, but it would keep him alive a little bit longer until they find one. I don't understand how people can say curing him will ruin his charchter, but they have no problem with Shepard being brought back after two year of dead.The people that say he should die because it will ruin his character sound like a broken record. They say the same thing over and over. I have yet to see how it will ruin him. It is one aspect of his life,and there is so much more to Thane then that.

I'm definitely not saying he must die--I'm simply saying that if he does, it's not bad writing. And that I understand the concerns of people who feel like his cure would be a cop-out.

And, actually, a lot of people have a problem with Shepard's death and resurrection. A lot of people feel the only saving throw is that it happens within ten minutes of the beginning of the game--people would be a lot angrier if Shepard died at the end of ME1 and was resurrected for ME2. On that same vein, we're told all throughout ME2 that Thane is going to die, and people feel like it's cheap to give him a cure for ME3.

People who say that simply feel like it was an important, tragic part of his character. It's like a serious movie about a cancer patient who suddenly gets cured through the tears of their loved ones. They were supposed to die--real life doesn't have sparkly princess endings. Thane getting cured, to them, probably feels like a cheap way to to milk drama from the second game without having to deal with any of the repercussions in the third.

Did you ever play DAO? In that game, a child is possessed by a demon--you can kill the child, or sacrifice the mother to kill the demon only and protect the child. There is, however, a third option--leave the child at his home and go to the Tower of Mages and use their magic to kill the demon without harming anyone. Part of the choice is that you would be leaving the town the child lives in at the mercy of the demon if you leave. But, if you do take that choice, nothing changes--the demon did absolutely nothing, and this third option is clearly the best option because everyone survives.

People felt like this was a cop-out--you had all the drama of a good story, but none of the consequences. You were able to safely maneuver out of a problematic situation with only a little extra effort on your part. You were told there would be consquences--yet there were none.

On that same note, you go into Thane's romance realizing that you're hurting yourself. Shepard's break-up line with him is that she doesn't want to love him now and lose him later. It's the tragedy of his character, of that romance. If it turns out you can cure him, some people are going to feel like they milked his character out. It'd be like Tali not needing to wear her mask around you because you exude anti-disease pheromones or something, or somehow living for a thousand years with Liara, or curing Miranda's infertility, or something like that.

To be clear, this isn't how I feel. I think there's a lot of storytelling potential in a man who believed he was truly going to die, and is suddenly given new life. I think that it should come at a heavy price--as I've said in the past, I think he should be rendered incapicitated for the final battle. That adds another layer of story; he's saved his own life, but he can no longer be there for you, can't do anything to protect you. If you somehow die facing the Reapers, I'm sure he'd feel like it's his fault. All that time it was him that was supposed to die, and instead his life is prolonged and yours is cut short.

And so on.

EDIT: OH GOOD LORD THAT IS LONG. I hope you can read that.

Juliaxo wrote...

And I do feel like killing Thane off would be the easy option for Bioware. It saves them from having to actually put some effort into further developing him as a character as well as any romantic storyline between him and Shepard. Keeping him alive would actually require some work on their part. I'm just hoping that since they went through the trouble to create this character they won't just toss him aside in ME3 like they did with Ash and Kaidan in ME2. It's rather disappointing to me if the only purpose they had in mind for Thane was to use him to force a sad end on the player for some cheap drama in ME3.

I don't expect Thane to die in the beginning of the game--I do believe the DLC hints towards him surviving a bit longer than he thought he would. They can keep him alive right up to the epilogue, if they want.

Again, I'm never sure why people say that it's "cheap" to kill Thane. It's not cheap--it's something that you agreed to by romancing him. Even though I want him cured, I think that it's far "cheaper" to cure him. I think that's the easy way out, really--at least for the player.

Thane is one of three romance interests. Asking why he exists if Garrus already does is like asking why is Jack there when Miranda is. They're different characters with different personalities and romances. I do think Thane is more compelling because he is dying. I do not think he is limited to his own demise, however.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 octobre 2010 - 04:08 .

[JECWSU]

I don't know that Bioware would even do his death justice.They would just kill him off and then you don't hear anymore about him. Who ever you let die on Virmire is barely even mentioned in ME2. Thane would get even less then that. He would simply be a forgotten character. I don't want that for him. I also have a feeling some of these people who say he should die only want him dead because they feel it would make room for the chracter they like. I am hoping that they at least give us a choice. If you want him dead than you can let him die, and if you don't you can save him. It doesn't have to be an easy choice, but I would like it to be my choice.

[cindalkitty]

It's cheap because then there's nothing at all to it.

"Hi, I'm dying." "Oh look, he's dead."

Boring. Because it's death, it's somehow infinitely more interesting?   No.  bad.  lame.

There is so much more they could do with this than just be like "well, you knew he was going to die. You had expectations from the writers? lols"

Modifié par cindalkitty, 20 octobre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Saibh]

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree--his death is a specific character point that he alone has. It really just boggles me that people can possible think it's cheap to have him succumb to his illness at the end of ME3. I mean that honest to god really confuses me. I know this will sound incredible b1tchy, but whenever somebody says that, it always seems to me that it's being looked through a haze of fan expectations, not objectively. Fans want him to survive, so they convince themselves it's somehow cheap for him to die.

I know that sounds really mean, but I hear it enough that it bugs me. People who say that part of Thane's appeal is that his romance is about now, and the same time say that it'd be cheap to kill him off. The reason his romance is about appreciating the time you have is because he is dying.

Yes, they can do more with it, but they don't have to. They can tell compelling story without him surviving--he's the only romance with this problem. It is unique to him.

I don't think it's cheap for him to survive, but I definitely don't think it's cheap for him to die, either. As I said, we signed up for it.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 octobre 2010 - 05:41 .

[Juliaxo]

Saibh wrote...

I'm definitely not saying he must die--I'm simply saying that if he does, it's not bad writing.

Well, that would depend on how they handle it and when ME3 takes place. Thane says he has a year or less to live. Is there going to be another 2 year time skip? Would Shepard get an email informing her of his death? Will Kolyat show up to tell her he died? Will he die in battle or from his disease only to cut to a five second shot of Shepard looking sad before moving onto the next big thing? I guess I don't really trust Bioware to make his death mean something or have any kind of lasting impact on Shep. More likely it will be brushed aside. That's my pessimistic view on the subject.

And, actually, a lot of people have a problem with Shepard's death and resurrection. A lot of people feel the only saving throw is that it happens within ten minutes of the beginning of the game--people would be a lot angrier if Shepard died at the end of ME1 and was resurrected for ME2. On that same vein, we're told all throughout ME2 that Thane is going to die, and people feel like it's cheap to give him a cure for ME3.

People who say that simply feel like it was an important, tragic part of his character. It's like a serious movie about a cancer patient who suddenly gets cured through the tears of their loved ones. They were supposed to die--real life doesn't have sparkly princess endings. Thane getting cured, to them, probably feels like a cheap way to to milk drama from the second game without having to deal with any of the repercussions in the third. 

There have been people in real life who were given a bad diagnosis and lived. It's not like it's completely out of the realm of possibilty. Bringing back someone who was well and truly dead requires quite a bit more suspension of disbelief. I didn't like Shepard's death and resurrection either but it happened. These characters live in a universe in which a person can be brought back from the dead with enough money and the right technology. Curing a bacterial disease is small potatoes in comparison to that. If people are just really opposed to Thane living for whatever reason they can choose to not help cure/prolong his life if that option is presented.

To be clear, this isn't how I feel. I think there's a lot of storytelling potential in a man who believed he was truly going to die, and is suddenly given new life. I think that it should come at a heavy price--as I've said in the past, I think he should be rendered incapicitated for the final battle. That adds another layer of story; he's saved his own life, but he can no longer be there for you, can't do anything to protect you. If you somehow die facing the Reapers, I'm sure he'd feel like it's his fault. All that time it was him that was supposed to die, and instead his life is prolonged and yours is cut short. 

This I can agree with even if the selfish part of me wants Thane cured and on the squad. If there was a choice between the two I would have to choose the cure.

I don't expect Thane to die in the beginning of the game--I do believe the DLC hints towards him surviving a bit longer than he thought he would. They can keep him alive right up to the epilogue, if they want.

Again, I'm never sure why people say that it's "cheap" to kill Thane. It's not cheap--it's something that you agreed to by romancing him. Even though I want him cured, I think that it's far "cheaper" to cure him. I think that's the easy way out, really--at least for the player.

JECWSU said it best, Bioware don't handle character death all that well. Even if you lose people on the suicide mission it gets brushed aside. In the end, Shepard stares sadly at their coffin for a few seconds before moving on. I'm pretty sure it's the same even if you lose your love interest during the SM. That's why I feel it will be the "cheap" option to kill Thane off. You squeeze some drama out of it for about a second then brush it aside to focus on everything else that's going on. There's so much more potential in keeping Thane alive.

[Saibh]

Juliaxo wrote...

JECWSU said it best, Bioware don't handle character death all that well. Even if you lose people on the suicide mission it gets brushed aside. In the end, Shepard stares sadly at their coffin for a few seconds before moving on. I'm pretty sure it's the same even if you lose your love interest during the SM. That's why I feel it will be the "cheap" option to kill Thane off. You squeeze some drama out of it for about a second then brush it aside to focus on everything else that's going on. There's so much more potential in keeping Thane alive.

Ah, I see. That was the piece I was missing. I have a lot of faith in BioWare--it never really crossed my mind that Thane would be dead by the start of ME3, or die somewhere in the middle of it. I always assumed that he would die in the epilogue. Hopefully a video epilogue--like you and Kolyat at his hospital bed as he passes.

I wasn't really understanding why someone could think it's bad writing to have him die, because I wasn't thinking in terms of how the death itself was handled. I was thinking people were saying it was bad writing for a terminally ill character to die of his terminal illness. This makes more sense to me.

You're right, death isn't handled well--I guess I assume Thane would be treated differently because there's actual lead up to his death. Kaidan/Ashley come as a surprise, and there is next to no post-game content after the SM and the sheer variability of it makes it really difficult to account for each characters death. I agree, though, it was never handled in an appropriate manner.

As for living from a real life terminal diagnosis...there is no indication that Thane can be cured on his own, so I doubt that's an option. I also think that, yeah, while Shepard's death is so beyond the realms of possibilty, Thane's cure shouldn't be impossible, either, Thane also gives us a projected timeline of when a cure should be viable. They are working on it, and it will most likely come to fruition--after he dies. It took two years to bring Shepard back, and for all we know, they'd spent the last twenty years developing the Lazarus Project, only to use it on Shepard.

Personally, I feel like giving him a new set of lungs is what's going to happen, not outright curing his illness. That makes a lot more sense to me, and feels less like an Asspull.

[cindalkitty]

edit: ffff rude girl!

that is all.


also,

this creeps me out. (sims skin)

by diraemythos

Modifié par cindalkitty, 20 octobre 2010 - 06:58 .

[Saibh]

I saw that! It is pretty damn creepy. I see it's a Sims 2 skin, since Sims 3 was absolutely neutered when it came to making custom content. I saw some incredibly detailed skins--like a Princess Zelda that actually looked like her Twilight Princess model. Lemme find it...Ah-ha!

I've yet to see anything so detailed from the Sims 3 Creator.

Edit? Now what did you edit, hmmmmmmmmmm?

Modifié par Saibh, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:09 .

[kaimanaMM]

I would be totally okay if Thane dies at the end of ME3.  I believe he should eventually die, most likely before Shepard even. With all the cybernetiic gizmos keeping Shep alive, s/he might be living a long long time.  Unless of course, we meet our Maker against the Reapers (which is a whole 'nother can of worms).

I am not okay with Thane dying before ME3 even hits the shelves.  Because his story is unfinished.  And death is easy.  And, based on what we've seen so far, unless something drastically changes Thane's death, at this point, would be meaningless.  

I want options.  The option to treat him.  The option to not treat him.  The option to say, 'Oh yeah, you were that guy on Ilium I was supposed to pick up,' if I never recruited him  The option to walk off into the sunset with the Shep swagger and Thane right by his/her side.  I want choice.  I want consequence.

I want shirtless Thane with his sly half smile telling a joke that only he and Shepard know the punchline to.

And a pony.

[General Ashous]

kaimanaMM wrote...

I would be totally okay if Thane dies at the end of ME3.  I believe he should eventually die, most likely before Shepard even. With all the cybernetiic gizmos keeping Shep alive, s/he might be living a long long time.  Unless of course, we meet our Maker against the Reapers (which is a whole 'nother can of worms).

I am not okay with Thane dying before ME3 even hits the shelves.  Because his story is unfinished.  And death is easy.  And, based on what we've seen so far, unless something drastically changes Thane's death, at this point, would be meaningless.  

I want options.  The option to treat him.  The option to not treat him.  The option to say, 'Oh yeah, you were that guy on Ilium I was supposed to pick up,' if I never recruited him  The option to walk off into the sunset with the Shep swagger and Thane right by his/her side.  I want choice.  I want consequence.

I want shirtless Thane with his sly half smile telling a joke that only he and Shepard know the punchline to.

And a pony.

Wow! That was touching. Nicely said KaimanaMM. I totally agree. I would enjoy Thane's death at the end of ME3 because it's the end, the climax. What I want is one final outing with my right hand man, the best friend my Shepard could ever ask for. Thane can not die before ME3 as it's an injustice to his character. I would love an epilogue, an epilogue made of cutscenes to show what happens after the Reapers are defeated and what happens to everyone. I would like a cutscene with Shepard, holding Thane's hand on his death bed as they say their final farewell. That would finally be enough to move even I.

[Babli]

I can imagine how Thane dies in the middle of some...ehm in the middle of the game and from that point would game started to get a lot of darker. Something like Virmire, after that mission it added more depth into it. I would really like something like that in ME 3.

[General Ashous]

Yes, but no Thane death. I think he needs to see it all through. Perhaps a choice between Jack and Grunt. Two characters I'm not too fond of. Who would I save? I'm swaying towards Grunt, at least he has some humor to him.

[abnocte]

I still believe that  Thane will make it to the end of M3, cured or not.  Any other way I will consider poor handling on Bioware's part.

I will accept it if he dies, but I don't understand how some people think his illness is such a central point to his character. I mean, unless you cheat and bring Thane to Mordin's recruitment, you never see any illness effects.

And his conversations aren't centered about it. Only if you romance him you get that line 'Time for me is short, Siha, but any I have is yours to take', again and again.


I'm curious about something. I've seen a lot of people think that due to the cybernetics Shepard will live longer than average human, but I actually believe that may not be the case. I mean, most experiments go through lots of failures before hitting the mark.
Project Lazarus only had one test subject, how did they know that all those gizmos would work? and for how long? and why the hell renegade Shepard gets such scars? I see writing potential here... but I doubt Bioware is going to take such route...

[Raokin]

abnocte wrote...
I mean, unless you cheat and bring Thane to Mordin's recruitment, you never see any illness effects.

I'm curious now. What happens if you do this?

[abnocte]

I saw it on youtube long ago...

He just comments how he is starting to feel pain in his ¿bones/ribcage? ( not sure... ) and that it usually precedes a coughing seizure...

[cindalkitty]

Saibh wrote...

Edit? Now what did you edit, hmmmmmmmmmm?

I had an adverse reaction to seeing the opinions of others being reduced to the haze of fan expectations.  In retrospect, I realized what I'd written wasn't constructive.  When I first came here, I was of the opinion that, if he didn't eventually die, it'd ruin his character.  I wrote a Big Long Thing™ about his character.  In the process of writing it, though, a few things occurred to me that hadn't before.  Eventually, I changed my mind.  But not out of feeling entitled to anything as a fan or for lacking objectivity.  Rude!

I'm an advocate for potential and good writing, it's why I'm here.  There is so much to discuss!  Regardless of what becomes of Thane, I really enjoy that they've given so much about him to discuss.  And don't get me wrong, for as much as I'd be underwhelmed if they outright killed him, I'd be just as underwhelmed if they magically cured him.

They created a character with DEATH stamped on his forehead.  If they did that without any sort of foresight, that would be hilarious... for all the wrong reasons.  And, point A to point B without any purpose except to get from point A to point B is cheap - this is my opinion as someone who enjoys reading and writing, not as some rabidly deranged fangirl.  I'm not even very good at being a rabidly deranged fangirl. 

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not alone in having developed my stance based on more than hawt drell chest, too.

And Kai, ilu.

Options FTW.

[abnocte]

@cindalkitty I totally agree with you, but I keep seeing one big problem.

Mass Effect IS a videogame, a hybrid shooter at that. And most videogames have little to no room for writing. I can clearly see how the writers wanted to resolve thing in a certain way but due to limited resources things got cut.



Now, the good part is that M3 engine already exists and they did HUGE improvements/tweaking on it in M2, so my hope is that they can spend more resources in resolving the plotline instead of removing 'X' feature because people whine about it ( think about elevators and how you could skip them with rapidtrans.... *facepalm* )

[cindalkitty]

abnocte wrote...
Mass Effect IS a videogame, a hybrid shooter at that. And most videogames have little to no room for writing.

Yus, I know.  Coming from Dragon Age and other RPG things, I definitely got the feeling that Mass Effect isn't, or at least wasn't, very story-centric.  However, I think BioWare has a decent repetoir of story games and, because of what you pointed out, I'd hope this means that if they assign a character with something serious, like death, they'd have taken some super disasterous things into account before deciding to go ahead with it.

They could have simplified things, erradicated this great debate, by not making him terminally ill.  Or just killing him at the end of ME2.

And if they didn't, well... special!

I'm very interested in seeing how it plays out.

Modifié par cindalkitty, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:11 .

[Saibh]

cindalkitty wrote...

I had an adverse reaction to seeing the opinions of others being reduced to the haze of fan expectations.  In retrospect, I realized what I'd written wasn't constructive.  When I first came here, I was of the opinion that, if he didn't eventually die, it'd ruin his character.  I wrote a Big Long Thing™ about his character.  In the process of writing it, though, a few things occurred to me that hadn't before.  Eventually, I changed my mind.  But not out of feeling entitled to anything as a fan or for lacking objectivity.  Rude!

I told you it was b1tchy. However, Juliaxo pointed out to me something I hadn't thought about: when people were referring to Thane's death as being cheap, I thought people were somehow of the opinion that a terminally ill character dying of his terminal illness was poor writing in some fashion. And I thought that was a really ridiculous thing to think--it boggled me, and I just couldn't understand it. She pointed out to me that it might be how he dies that comes off as cheap, and then I could see the concern. BioWare hasn't been so good with the death aspect, even the deaths of your love interests. I hadn't thought of it in that light.

I never argued that his dying would ruin his character--I spoke several times to the contrary, actually. I was simply presenting the perspective of those who might feel that a cure would be a cop-out. The main thing that I wasn't understanding was the thought process that Thane dying of his disease--in any setting, even with lots of focus on it, even him living till the very end of the game, with all its lead up and hyping from the second game, was somehow bad writing. That merely him dying of his illness was a poor move on the writers part. In that sense, it smelled to me of fan entitlement.

But if people are concerned that he'll die in between ME2 and ME3, or die midway through the game, or find out about his death through e-mail or there being very little focus about it, then I understand. Those are very valid concerns. I can't stress enough that it was the idea that his death given all the loving attention of Romeo's suicide would still somehow be cheap and bad writing. That was what was getting me.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:17 .

[abnocte]

Yeah, I think Bioware is wonderful making videogames, hell, I wouldn't be a 'gamer' if it wasn't for them.



Lets hope this time they don't spend too much time tweaking the engine. Story-wise I think ME1 was better, and ME3 should be the greatest thing in years to come! is THE END of the series for gods sake!



XD

[cindalkitty]

I apologize. The addition of "when I first came here" was to help add perspective. It wasn't directed at your feelings.

Modifié par cindalkitty, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:20 .

[Saibh]

cindalkitty wrote...

I apologize. The addition of "when I first came here" was to help add perspective. It wasn't directed at your feelings.

Oh, I wasn't mad in the least bit. I was simply explaining what I felt.

[cindalkitty]

Let me try that again. It wasn't meant to reflect anything you've "argued" or your stances on anything. I didn't mean "when I came here, I was like you" I meant "When I came here, I didn't always thinks as I do now."

[Saibh]

cindalkitty wrote...

Let me try that again. It wasn't meant to reflect anything you've "argued" or your stances on anything. I didn't mean "when I came here, I was like you" I meant "When I came here, I didn't always thinks as I do now."

Why do you keep insulting me?! What is wrong with you what have I done all I want to do is use Thane's zipper and all you do is stomp on my feelings like a pink stomping machine I hate you all I'm going to my room!