16751 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Hainkpe wrote...

I would have to disagree with the term moral and morality as being a trait linked to Thane. Simple right versus wrong isn't at the heart of who Thane is, its his ethics, how those morals are applied within his cultural, psychological, spiritual and sociological perspective.

He believed in order to atone his "sins" he had to accept his fate. But at the same time, he had become suicidal. He was choosing the time and place to end his life rather than accepting the path his condition has plotted. We do not know the ethics of suicide in the Drell culture. What does this mean? Does his culture allow for such behavior or was he going to engage in an act of sin in order to atone? We don't know.

In the end, at least fo rme, its comes down to Shepard's own ethics. Can she (you as the player) allow a person to die without intervening, knowing there are viable treatment options?

Does Thane have that right to self-determination despite the fact he loves Shepard and she not only loves, but needs him too?

He knows she needs him for the mission. He knows he can protect her.

That is the dilema for me. When is the right to die justified? These are not simple questions. Risks versus the benefits have to be weighed and the reality of doing no harm.

My belief isn't that we as the player are going to get a situation where its the benefit of the many versus the benefit of the one. I believe its going to come down to to an ethical dilema with Thane himself. The outcome of another mission that will impact his choice. Maybe the overall mission, for all we know.

In the end, its a fun ride despite everything.

You have both proved my point. His death is an integral part of his character. His resignation to it, his attempts to make it worth something, his mental dwelling as a result of it, every part of his character is somehow tied to his mortality. You know about Irika because he is dwelling on his mistakes as a husband and a father because he knows he is going to die. He hasn't spoken to anyone else about either of them until Shepard, and to me it is because he is thinking about them both more now.

His situation with his wife was fatalistic as is his Nassana job. He even tells you that his mortality has him dwelling on things when he tells you about Koliat. Aside from his drell heritage and the compact, those are the only two major parts of his character's depth and they are both tied to his mortality.

That is why I believe that Bioware would have to introduce new aspects to his character that weren't in any way related to his mortality for me to think that a cure wouldn't be cheap.

And as I said, I would save him if I could, even if Bioware didn't provide what I want, but not at the expense of the mission. I would never sacrifice other members of my crew for him because everyone else is of a higher priority. I have accepted that he is going to die, he has accepted that he is going to die and so sacrificing anyone to save him would be a waste.

[Nonsense4]

Hainkpe wrote...

I would have to disagree with the term moral and morality as being a trait linked to Thane. Simple right versus wrong isn't at the heart of who Thane is, its his ethics, how those morals are applied within his cultural, psychological, spiritual and sociological perspective.

Thanks for reminding me! I 'm often guilty of anthopomorphising Thane, even though he says in his own words: 'Drell minds are different from humans''.

[Juliaxo]

Your entire crew was reflecting on their mortality because they were on a suicide mission! That's why everyone had loose ends they wanted Shepard to help them take care of because they might not survive. Thane was no different from the rest in that respect. Like someone else said, the Kepral's adds a sense of urgency but take it away and Thane's character would not change much. Many of his issues have nothing to do with his disease.



It bugs me that people look at him and see the illness and nothing else.

[kaimanaMM]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

stuff

Why not go back and read what I wrote to you yesterday?  You've made up your mind about Thane.  If you've had such a long standing opinion that Thane's main draw is his eventual demise, then so be it.  It's not our responsibility to change your mind.

Why don't you explore the character?  Why don't you roll up a Shep and go through his romance?  There's alot more to Thane than you give the character credit for if you can see past the expiration date stamped on his forehead.

Moving on.

At this point in Shep's story, my Shep could care less what anyone thinks of her, except maybe her ME2 team and Wrex.  The Council wants to continue their charade, fine.  The Alliance wants to disassociate, done.  TIM's a little miffed that I blew up his trophy, whatever.  If diverting to Kahje (or wherever) to pick up a new set of lungs for Thane pisses a few people off and gives the Reapers a few days head start, my Shep really couldn't give a rat's ass.

Except if Thane has a real problem with it.  That, for me, is where I'm having trouble.

[JECWSU]

kaimanaMM wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

stuff

Why not go back and read what I wrote to you yesterday?  You've made up your mind about Thane.  If you've had such a long standing opinion that Thane's main draw is his eventual demise, then so be it.  It's not our responsibility to change your mind.

Why don't you explore the character?  Why don't you roll up a Shep and go through his romance?  There's alot more to Thane than you give the character credit for if you can see past the expiration date stamped on his forehead.

Moving on.

At this point in Shep's story, my Shep could care less what anyone thinks of her, except maybe her ME2 team and Wrex.  The Council wants to continue their charade, fine.  The Alliance wants to disassociate, done.  TIM's a little miffed that I blew up his trophy, whatever.  If diverting to Kahje (or wherever) to pick up a new set of lungs for Thane pisses a few people off and gives the Reapers a few days head start, my Shep really couldn't give a rat's ass.

Except if Thane has a real problem with it.  That, for me, is where I'm having trouble.

I also could care less what anyone thinks. Shepard has already saved the galaxy once, and now she is about to do it again. She went out of her way to help her entire ME2 crew with their problems. If she wants to take a detour to help save someone that she loves then I'm going to let her. 

I agree that Thane having a problem with it is the only thing that could make me think twice about it.

Modifié par JECWSU, 21 octobre 2010 - 12:35 .

[JECWSU]

Hainkpe wrote...

Gee "Thane likes to mope... Blah blah blah..." I hated those responses in the game or the " ... Is that a poor me..... Blah blah blah..."

So, Thane's zipper, flaunting itself or quietly confident?

I don't remember hearing Thane likes to mope. That response is in the game.

[Fiery Phoenix]

GuardianAngel470,



At this point, it has been made crystal-clear why Thane's illness does not equal his character. I suggest you move on already.

[Pacifien]

Just a reminder that contrary viewpoints expressed in a civil manner are allowed on these forums. It's up to each individual poster if they wish to move on from the discussion.

[kaimanaMM]

Hainkpe wrote...

So, Thane's zipper, flaunting itself or quietly confident?

Quietly confident.

Confident that it knows what you want.

Quiet in its unassuming position.  

It's all the way up, but halfway down his chest.

Or is it flaunting it's position.  It knows you're looking at it.  Wondering.



It knows you feel this.

[GuardianAngel470]

kaimanaMM wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

stuff

Why not go back and read what I wrote to you yesterday?  You've made up your mind about Thane.  If you've had such a long standing opinion that Thane's main draw is his eventual demise, then so be it.  It's not our responsibility to change your mind.

Why don't you explore the character?  Why don't you roll up a Shep and go through his romance?  There's alot more to Thane than you give the character credit for if you can see past the expiration date stamped on his forehead.

Moving on.

At this point in Shep's story, my Shep could care less what anyone thinks of her, except maybe her ME2 team and Wrex.  The Council wants to continue their charade, fine.  The Alliance wants to disassociate, done.  TIM's a little miffed that I blew up his trophy, whatever.  If diverting to Kahje (or wherever) to pick up a new set of lungs for Thane pisses a few people off and gives the Reapers a few days head start, my Shep really couldn't give a rat's ass.

Except if Thane has a real problem with it.  That, for me, is where I'm having trouble.

It's obvious I can't discuss a character in a character discussion thread. I go into the Liara thread trying to discuss how I view her versus how they view her and I get ignored and flamed. 

I go into the Kelly thread and surprisingly have a mostly civil discussion about her, but mixed with some anger.

I go into the Jack thread and try to discuss her character and I get flamed.

I come in here and actually hold a relatively good discussion with the night crew where I expressly state my opinion is not that Thane's biggest draw is his mortality but rather that everything else about him somehow ties into that aspect and yet I get misquoted and misrepresented and my opinion is rewritten to fit what you expect.

Why even have a discussion thread if you don't want to discuss anything other than how awesome your favorite character is? Wouldn't that just get stale?

I, unlike it seems many of you, read the OP to the Tali discussion thread. Pacifien's comments as well as Stan Woo's and other's are very enlightening.

[JECWSU]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

kaimanaMM wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

stuff

Why not go back and read what I wrote to you yesterday?  You've made up your mind about Thane.  If you've had such a long standing opinion that Thane's main draw is his eventual demise, then so be it.  It's not our responsibility to change your mind.

Why don't you explore the character?  Why don't you roll up a Shep and go through his romance?  There's alot more to Thane than you give the character credit for if you can see past the expiration date stamped on his forehead.

Moving on.

At this point in Shep's story, my Shep could care less what anyone thinks of her, except maybe her ME2 team and Wrex.  The Council wants to continue their charade, fine.  The Alliance wants to disassociate, done.  TIM's a little miffed that I blew up his trophy, whatever.  If diverting to Kahje (or wherever) to pick up a new set of lungs for Thane pisses a few people off and gives the Reapers a few days head start, my Shep really couldn't give a rat's ass.

Except if Thane has a real problem with it.  That, for me, is where I'm having trouble.

It's obvious I can't discuss a character in a character discussion thread. I go into the Liara thread trying to discuss how I view her versus how they view her and I get ignored and flamed. 

I go into the Kelly thread and surprisingly have a mostly civil discussion about her, but mixed with some anger.

I go into the Jack thread and try to discuss her character and I get flamed.

I come in here and actually hold a relatively good discussion with the night crew where I expressly state my opinion is not that Thane's biggest draw is his mortality but rather that everything else about him somehow ties into that aspect and yet I get misquoted and misrepresented and my opinion is rewritten to fit what you expect.

Why even have a discussion thread if you don't want to discuss anything other than how awesome your favorite character is? Wouldn't that just get stale?

I, unlike it seems many of you, read the OP to the Tali discussion thread. Pacifien's comments as well as Stan Woo's and other's are very enlightening.

When and where were you misquoted, and I don't remember anyone rewriting your post.  You said that you thought Thane should die because it is a huge part of his character. Most of us said we don't think that it is. If you want to keep talking about it you can. It just seems to go back and forth. I  think it should be a choice that way people who want to treat him can and people who don't want to treat him don't have to.

[JECWSU]

kaimanaMM wrote...

Hainkpe wrote...

So, Thane's zipper, flaunting itself or quietly confident?

Quietly confident.

Confident that it knows what you want.

Quiet in its unassuming position.  

It's all the way up, but halfway down his chest.

Or is it flaunting it's position.  It knows you're looking at it.  Wondering.



It knows you feel this.

 
This drawing is very good. Did you do it?

[GuardianAngel470]

JECWSU wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

kaimanaMM wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

stuff

Why not go back and read what I wrote to you yesterday?  You've made up your mind about Thane.  If you've had such a long standing opinion that Thane's main draw is his eventual demise, then so be it.  It's not our responsibility to change your mind.

Why don't you explore the character?  Why don't you roll up a Shep and go through his romance?  There's alot more to Thane than you give the character credit for if you can see past the expiration date stamped on his forehead.

Moving on.

At this point in Shep's story, my Shep could care less what anyone thinks of her, except maybe her ME2 team and Wrex.  The Council wants to continue their charade, fine.  The Alliance wants to disassociate, done.  TIM's a little miffed that I blew up his trophy, whatever.  If diverting to Kahje (or wherever) to pick up a new set of lungs for Thane pisses a few people off and gives the Reapers a few days head start, my Shep really couldn't give a rat's ass.

Except if Thane has a real problem with it.  That, for me, is where I'm having trouble.

It's obvious I can't discuss a character in a character discussion thread. I go into the Liara thread trying to discuss how I view her versus how they view her and I get ignored and flamed. 

I go into the Kelly thread and surprisingly have a mostly civil discussion about her, but mixed with some anger.

I go into the Jack thread and try to discuss her character and I get flamed.

I come in here and actually hold a relatively good discussion with the night crew where I expressly state my opinion is not that Thane's biggest draw is his mortality but rather that everything else about him somehow ties into that aspect and yet I get misquoted and misrepresented and my opinion is rewritten to fit what you expect.

Why even have a discussion thread if you don't want to discuss anything other than how awesome your favorite character is? Wouldn't that just get stale?

I, unlike it seems many of you, read the OP to the Tali discussion thread. Pacifien's comments as well as Stan Woo's and other's are very enlightening.

When and where were you misquoted, and I don't remember anyone rewriting your post.  You said that you thought Thane should die because it is a huge part of his character. Most of us said we don't think that it is. If you want to keep talking about it you can. It just seems to go back and forth. I  think it should be a choice that way people who want to treat him can and people who don't want to treat him don't have to.

Right there, you did it again. I never said he should die, I said that with the current amount of character development for him, including as I understand it the romance, curing him would be cheap.

I also, explicitly state at least twice, that if Bioware provide more character development that didn't in some way link to his mortality, then I would support a cure because I like Thane. I was disturbed when he died on one of my first playthroughs because I enjoyed his character.

All I have been saying, and this is where I have been misquoted and my opinion rewritten, is that as of right now, with the limited amount of dialog from him and the limited amount of character development, every story that is relevant to his character is triggered by his mortality and thus I associate it all with that. Because it is all associated with his mortality, as of the end of ME2, finding a miraculous cure would be cheap.

I never said if he didn't die it ruined his character, I always said that if done correctly I would support a cure but I needed to see more development.

I also said that even if there wasn't development if I had the option, I would use the cure. My only caveat was I wouldn't do it if saving Thane sacrificed some part of the mission or another squadmate. I wouldn't find such a decision justified since we have both resigned ourselves to the idea that he would die within eight to twelve months.

[cindalkitty]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

It isn't so much that it is a part of his appeal, its more the fact that it is the single unifying characteristic of his personality. If I had the option to save him I would unless it interfered with the mission, but I would feel like his character had lost some of its meaning.

Mortality is such a huge part of his character that some sort of win button to save him would diminish who he is as expressed in ME2.

Now there's always the option for further character development and if they expand on his character to include things that aren't so centered around his mortality, then I might feel differently.

But as it stands now, it would feel cheap, there really isn't a better way to say it.

You asked about a single conversation when death isn't brought up.  In the second shipboard conversation, you learn about hanar, drell culture, and are exposed to his first instance of solipsim.  Death is not brought up once in any possible path of conversation.

Otherwise, Shepard is the one who brings it up, not Thane, with very very few exceptions, and these moments are only experienced through specific conversation choices which are possible to avoid altogether.  The meat of his conversation options and topics focus on drell culture, the hanar, his LIFE (his profession, his family, revenge) his philosophy/spirituality, and how Shepard has affected him.

In regard to character development -
In ME2, Thane transitions from his battle sleep to being awake (regardless of romance, he says his mind /had been/ dead for a long time).  And, if you romance him, you find out he doesn't want die anymore.  Assuming he dies before or even just after ME3, he's not really going to get much of a chance to develop further as a character.  In addition to "I'm dying" he says in Dantius Towers that he wants to make the galaxy brighter before he dies.  Would that change if he was going to die 40 years from now instead of tomorrow?  This is something to explore. Assuming you did his loyalty mission, he also has the chance to watch over his son and repair some things.

Given the actual topics of his conversations, he's got a solid base to grow from with plenty of avenues to explore and a lot of questions to address.   Bad writing could cheapen any of it, but that also goes for anything and anyone in the Mass Effect universe.

As everyone here is used to, people drop in from time to time and claim his disease is all there is to his character.  This is a result of people failing to realize the distinction between character traits and plot devices.  His disease is a plot device, something to be reacted to and resolved one way or another (like the subjects of the loyalty missions).  His character, however, and things that are integral to his character, are what determine how he reacts to this plot device.


If I had to pick a "single unifying characteristic of his personality" it would be his spirituality:

Irikah - he thought she was the goddess arashu herself.

Shepard - Siha, warrior angel of Arashu.

Revenge - the body working independent of the soul.  It is a source of guilt.  He's sinned.

In his work - He prays to Arashu for protection, Amonkira to find his prey, and Kalihira for when they die/prays for forgiveness.

His purpose - atonement.

His son - the only good he's ever added (see: atonement)

Death - His spirituality reinforces his understanding of acceptance (if the soul does not move on when the body dies, "accept a new way of living," it will be lost) regardless of the cause or timing.

Modifié par cindalkitty, 21 octobre 2010 - 03:54 .

[GuardianAngel470]

cindalkitty wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

It isn't so much that it is a part of his appeal, its more the fact that it is the single unifying characteristic of his personality. If I had the option to save him I would unless it interfered with the mission, but I would feel like his character had lost some of its meaning.

Mortality is such a huge part of his character that some sort of win button to save him would diminish who he is as expressed in ME2.

Now there's always the option for further character development and if they expand on his character to include things that aren't so centered around his mortality, then I might feel differently.

But as it stands now, it would feel cheap, there really isn't a better way to say it.

You asked about a single conversation when death isn't brought up.  In the second shipboard conversation, you learn about hanar, drell culture, and are exposed to his first instance of solipsim.  Death is not brought up once in any possible path of conversation.

Otherwise, Shepard is the one who brings it up, not Thane, with very very few exceptions, and these moments are only experienced through specific conversation choices which are possible to avoid altogether.  The meat of his conversation options and topics focus on drell culture, the hanar, his LIFE (his profession, his family, revenge) his philosophy/spirituality, and how Shepard has affected him.

In regard to character development -
In ME2, Thane transitions from his battle sleep to being awake (regardless of romance, he says his mind /had been/ dead for a long time).  And, if you romance him, you find out he doesn't want die anymore.  Assuming he dies before or even just after ME3, he's not really going to get much of a chance to develop further as a character.  In addition to "I'm dying" he says in Dantius Towers that he wants to make the galaxy brighter before he dies.  Would that change if he was going to die 40 years from now instead of tomorrow?  This is something to explore. Assuming you did his loyalty mission, he also has the chance to watch over his son and repair some things.

Given the actual topics of his conversations, he's got a solid base to grow from with plenty of avenues to explore and a lot of questions to address.   Bad writing could cheapen any of it, but that also goes for anything and anyone in the Mass Effect universe.

As everyone here is used to, people drop in from time to time and claim his disease is all there is to his character.  This is a result of people failing to realize the distinction between character traits and plot devices.  His disease is a plot device, something to be reacted to and resolved one way or another (like the subjects of the loyalty missions).  His character, however, and things that are integral to his character, are what determine how he reacts to this plot device.

If I had to pick a "single unifying characteristic of his personality" it would be his spirituality.

I don't disagree with any particular point, but I would say that his mortality, more than any other character's, adds a certain depth, flavor, edge, what have you, to his character that would be removed, IMO, if they had a miraculous cure. To me that cheapens his character.

I was wrong, it seems, that Thane didn't have any dialog that didn't reference it but I believe I mentioned that what I was referring to was his actual character dialog as opposed to the encyclopedic information. If I didn't make that clear than there it is.

I would argue however that his mortality is part of his character, but not necessarily his personality. We may be using the same word to describe two different things. It isn't the be all and end all, but it is a part of it, and a miraculous cure would cheapen that part and thus cheapen the character.

[Juliaxo]

kaimanaMM wrote...
At this point in Shep's story, my Shep could care less what anyone thinks of her, except maybe her ME2 team and Wrex.  The Council wants to continue their charade, fine.  The Alliance wants to disassociate, done.  TIM's a little miffed that I blew up his trophy, whatever.  If diverting to Kahje (or wherever) to pick up a new set of lungs for Thane pisses a few people off and gives the Reapers a few days head start, my Shep really couldn't give a rat's ass.

Except if Thane has a real problem with it.  That, for me, is where I'm having trouble.

Well said. I feel pretty much the same way. Thane's opinion is what would matter to my Shepard since ultimately it would have to be his decision.
 
I think by the time you hit the Omega 4 Relay and the romance scene is initiated (probably even before that) Thane without a doubt wants to live. He's working on mending his relationship with his son, the fight against the Reapers has given him renewed purpose and he loves Shepard. He's no longer the resigned man you met at the Dantius Towers. Shepard woke him up from his battle sleep. Things aren't so cut and dry.  I just wonder if Shepard is going to have to talk to him about getting that transplant or some kind of treatment. I can see him being resistant to the idea if it incapacitates him for awhile (making him unable to help defend the woman he loves) or he might feel someone else deserves it more. Too many variables. I don't want Shepard to force a decision on him so I hope there's a way to convince him. Hell, I hope there's a choice at all. That way everyone wins.

[JECWSU]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Right there, you did it again. I never said he should die, I said that with the current amount of character development for him, including as I understand it the romance, curing him would be cheap.

I also, explicitly state at least twice, that if Bioware provide more character development that didn't in some way link to his mortality, then I would support a cure because I like Thane. I was disturbed when he died on one of my first playthroughs because I enjoyed his character.

All I have been saying, and this is where I have been misquoted and my opinion rewritten, is that as of right now, with the limited amount of dialog from him and the limited amount of character development, every story that is relevant to his character is triggered by his mortality and thus I associate it all with that. Because it is all associated with his mortality, as of the end of ME2, finding a miraculous cure would be cheap.

I never said if he didn't die it ruined his character, I always said that if done correctly I would support a cure but I needed to see more development.

I also said that even if there wasn't development if I had the option, I would use the cure. My only caveat was I wouldn't do it if saving Thane sacrificed some part of the mission or another squadmate. I wouldn't find such a decision justified since we have both resigned ourselves to the idea that he would die within eight to twelve months.

Modifié par JECWSU, 21 octobre 2010 - 04:08 .

[JECWSU]

Juliaxo wrote...

kaimanaMM wrote...
At this point in Shep's story, my Shep could care less what anyone thinks of her, except maybe her ME2 team and Wrex.  The Council wants to continue their charade, fine.  The Alliance wants to disassociate, done.  TIM's a little miffed that I blew up his trophy, whatever.  If diverting to Kahje (or wherever) to pick up a new set of lungs for Thane pisses a few people off and gives the Reapers a few days head start, my Shep really couldn't give a rat's ass.

Except if Thane has a real problem with it.  That, for me, is where I'm having trouble.

Well said. I feel pretty much the same way. Thane's opinion is what would matter to my Shepard since ultimately it would have to be his decision.
 
I think by the time you hit the Omega 4 Relay and the romance scene is initiated (probably even before that) Thane without a doubt wants to live. He's working on mending his relationship with his son, the fight against the Reapers has given him renewed purpose and he loves Shepard. He's no longer the resigned man you met at the Dantius Towers. Shepard woke him up from his battle sleep. Things aren't so cut and dry.  I just wonder if Shepard is going to have to talk to him about getting that transplant or some kind of treatment. I can see him being resistant to the idea if it incapacitates him for awhile (making him unable to help defend the woman he loves) or he might feel someone else deserves it more. Too many variables. I don't want Shepard to force a decision on him so I hope there's a way to convince him. Hell, I hope there's a choice at all. That way everyone wins.

I would love to talk to him about the transplant. I want to know why he won't have it done. It still isn't a cure. It will just prolong his life, but it's a start. I don't want to force him to do this if he doesn't want to either. He does have two things to live for now. That's something he didn't have before.

[cindalkitty]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I don't disagree with any particular point, but I would say that his mortality, more than any other character's, adds a certain depth, flavor, edge, what have you, to his character that would be removed, IMO, if they had a miraculous cure. To me that cheapens his character.

I agree.  I believe most of us do.  Magically curing him, to me, is just as cheap as unceremoniously killing him.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I was wrong, it seems, that Thane didn't have any dialog that didn't reference it but I believe I mentioned that what I was referring to was his actual character dialog as opposed to the encyclopedic information. If I didn't make that clear than there it is.

What I cited is actual character dialogue.  It's the conversation that starts out with "you're not a typical assassin" "how did you get this job?" or "You don't seem confident."

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I would argue however that his mortality is part of his character, but not necessarily his personality. We may be using the same word to describe two different things. It isn't the be all and end all, but it is a part of it, and a miraculous cure would cheapen that part and thus cheapen the character.

I think you might be right about using the same word to describe two different things.  To me, morality in a largely spiritual character is derivative of that character's spirituality.   Either way, I'd pick it to be his single defining characteristic.

Personality is somewhat different, yes, but I have never picked up that his personality was laced with death and doom... unless you fail his loyalty mission.    His personality, I'd more identify with being calm, collected, intellectual, methodical, with a very dry sense of humor, and a deep appreciation for life.

Modifié par cindalkitty, 21 octobre 2010 - 04:10 .