16751 réponses à ce sujet

[JECWSU]

I don't think he did lie. I always assumed that when she told people he was away on business it was just a cover. She couldn't tell them the truth. I never thought he lied to her. He just doesn't seem like the type to do that. I could be wrong, but Thane never struck me as a liar.

Modifié par JECWSU, 28 octobre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Saibh]

JECWSU wrote...

I don't think he did lie. I always assumed that when she told people he was away on business it was just a cover. She couldn't tell them the truth. I never thought he lied to her. He just doesn't seem like the type to do that. I could be wrong, but Thane never struck me as a lier.

I know what you mean--but, from what we know of Irikah, how could she be okay with it? Really, how could anyone but people like Shepard be okay with it? Irikah is especially notable, because she believed her own life was less important than protecting some random stranger from assassination.

If I heard that line of dialogue ("away on business") with no context except he's an assassin, I would assume that meant she knew and was covering it. But from what we know of Irikah, that's what makes me wonder if she really did, or if Thane wasn't being honest with her. I don't know.

Modifié par Saibh, 28 octobre 2010 - 04:53 .

[lyssalu]

Saibh wrote...

JECWSU wrote...

I don't think he did lie. I always assumed that when she told people he was away on business it was just a cover. She couldn't tell them the truth. I never thought he lied to her. He just doesn't seem like the type to do that. I could be wrong, but Thane never struck me as a lier.

I know what you mean--but, from what we know of Irikah, how could she be okay with it? Really, how could anyone but people like Shepard be okay with it? Irikah is especially notable, because she believed her own life was less important than protecting some random stranger from assassination.

If I heard that line of dialogue ("away on business") with no context except he's an assassin, I would assume that meant she knew and was covering it. But from what we know of Irikah, that's what makes me wonder if she really did, or if Thane wasn't being honest with her. I don't know.

when i hear, "she told people i was away on business," it implies to me that she was aware of where he was and that she was lying to other people.  why would this be noteworthy otherwise?  had he said, "i told her i was away on business," the implications would be different.

[Saibh]

mashavasilec wrote...

she fell in love with an assassin. problematic i know. but she kinda had to live with it

She fell in love with an assassin who met her by falling to his knees and begging her forgiveness. I'd argue to assumed he'd stopped and saw the error of his ways. Besides, being a drell, she probably believed in the same soul/body connection thing Thane did. She didn't believe in assassination, but she may have believed he was innocent of it. Him choosing to go out and kill people on his own, without the hanar's direction, seems pretty different.

as far as i understand, if Thane's parents agreed to give their child to such training under the Compact (which is an official document), it has to be pretty common and well-known practice in drell society. see, there's no such thing as 'human assassin school', at least not a legalized one. but there is that point in a Compact, and Compact has to be an open document.

thus i'm assuming that Irikah knew about the existence of hanar-employed drellssassins. since she fell in love and married him she must have accepted this. when Thane asked hanar to leave their service i should've been his and Irikah's decision. and the fact that she told people that he's away on business is a pretty common thing among such families where one of the parents is doing 'not-so-legal- job'

I repeatedly have said that I believe she knew he was an assassin--it's the matter of did she or did she not know he kept assassinating after they got married? He implies he stopped once he knew her, and then began again because he had no other skills. Did he tell her what she did, or did he say the hanar employed him as a traveling Enkindler missionary bodyguard or something?

I'm not sure why the information of every trained killer out there would be open knowledge to anyone who can access it, but that's not the point. She knew, I'm not arguing that.

lyssalu wrote...

when i hear, "she told people i was away on business," it implies to me that she was aware of where he was and that she was lying to other people.  why would this be noteworthy otherwise?  had he said, "i told her i was away on business," the implications would be different.

As I said, out of context I would certainly think that, too--but it strikes me as odd that Irikah was okay with this. That's where the doubt comes in. Why would Irikah be okay with Thane assassinating people? We established that she's fairly against assassinating. It's ambiguous enough that I can argue it either way.

Modifié par Saibh, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:03 .

[JECWSU]

Saibh wrote...

JECWSU wrote...

I don't think he did lie. I always assumed that when she told people he was away on business it was just a cover. She couldn't tell them the truth. I never thought he lied to her. He just doesn't seem like the type to do that. I could be wrong, but Thane never struck me as a lier.

I know what you mean--but, from what we know of Irikah, how could she be okay with it? Really, how could anyone but people like Shepard be okay with it? Irikah is especially notable, because she believed her own life was less important than protecting some random stranger from assassination.

If I heard that line of dialogue ("away on business") with no context except he's an assassin, I would assume that meant she knew and was covering it. But from what we know of Irikah, that's what makes me wonder if she really did, or if Thane wasn't being honest with her. I don't know.

That's true. I don't think she was ok with it. Maybe she loved him so much that she tried to be ok with it. Maybe she thought one day it would change.  How could that marriage have ever really lasted. Either he was lying to her or she was compromisng who she was for him. I don't know either.

[lyssalu]

irikah was lacking context. she saw a man with a gun aiming at a citizen. she did not see an assassin taking out (presumably) a person worthy of being killed. you also have to remember that he did quit the compact for her, and it seems to me that they were together for a while before they realized that they would not be able to scrape by without thane acting as a provider as well as her.

if irikah believed in the mind/body connection as thane did, upon finding out that he was an assassin doing as his employer willed him, she would have had no qualms with thane continuing in his line of work. even more so, it would have mattered to her less after he left the compact and resumed assassinations through contracts, because then, he'd have more choice in the matter, as in, being able to sort out the people worthy of being assassinated from the ones who were more innocent.

if irikah continued to have problems with his assassinations, i don't think that she would have left him because they had a son together and had, at that point, already established themselves as being a family.

if thane had lied to irikah, he would have said that he'd told her that he was away on business as opposed to phrasing it in a way that implied irikah was lying to others.

Modifié par lyssalu, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:13 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I thought the same as JEC myself. That the whole away-on-business thing is nothing short of a cover used by Irikah to get around people's questions about Thane's status.

[cindalkitty]

Whoa whoa whoa.

Back the Thanetrain up.

Saying he lied to Irikah is HUGELY speculative.  Not out of the wide realm of possibility (afterall, serial killer BTK managed to lead a double life for decades) but it is still a pretty big shot in the dark there.

However, given what we do know about Thane, I'm not inclined to believe he lied to Irikah about what he did.


Since we're clearly throwing out what we know of him at presence, as well as his spirituality and overall bluntness, I'll leave those aspects out and just tackle some of the more ephemeral aspects.


1.)  If he did try to live a lie for the duration of his relationship, he was sloppy about it.
In the conversation where you receive his loyalty mission, if you ask him about wtf "Dance Crazy" means, he spouts off a memory where he's checking his extranet contacts and Kolyat comes running in to the room.  What does he do then?  Instead of hiding what he's doing, he picks his son up and spins him.

Console beeps, he puts Kolyat down, Kolyat pleads with him and tugs at his sleeve.  Thane ignores him.

First, I'd think this might get back around to Irikah in some way.  At least, it would be more likely than someone managing to keep his job a secret for 10 years.

Second, if he was trying to be uber secret agent, I doubt he'd checking his contacts so casually around his home.


2.) Irikah is a drell and likely understands The Compact and Body v. Soul
All we know about Irikah is from Thane.  She stepped between him and his mark and said "How dare you."  That is all we really know about her, aside from the fact that they had a drell kid, so she was likely also drell. 

Thane says that it is an honor to be selected to fulfill the Compact.  He is also likely not the only drell ever selected to do this.  I'd be interested in how this impacts drell cultures - like, are these people/families revered for their sacrafice?  Given the info from Thane and the info in the wiki, I'm more inclined to believe the eventuality of her forgiving him is based off of understanding and not a lie.


3.)  The most failingest way to start off your double life...
When Shepard asks Thane how Irikah went from blocking his shot to having his kids, he says he fell to his knees before her, begged her pardon.  Eventually she forgave him.  Later, she loved him.  Keep in mind, he also says "she couldn't see me, but she stared me down."

If she couldn't see him, if he really wanted to lie from the start, totally free of suspicion to carry out this overarching lie of a life with her for nearly a decade, it would have been easier if he didn't throw himself at her feet and beg her forgiveness.  Much less work might have been involved if he'd just approached her as Thane the Brick Layer whose profession takes him away for weeks at a time instead of Thane of the Compact, whose job it is to kill people OH BUT I'LL GIVE IT ALL UP AND JUST BE GONE A LOT, KAY?

No.  This is what separates Thane from people who've managed to live double-lives for years on end - BTK likely didn't meet his wife while he was murdering someone and then tried to build a life around "I swear I'll never do it again, honey."

If you can't get points 1 and 2 right, the chances of succeeding at this lie of a life are greatly reduced and make the idea somewhat ludicrous to consider.

Modifié par cindalkitty, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:25 .

[lyssalu]

oh lol

i can't believe i just thought of this

the big thing here is that kolyat knows that he's an assassin

why wouldn't irikah have known

the game itself portrays this as something that wasn't a family secret

Modifié par lyssalu, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:22 .

[Saibh]

mashavasilec wrote...

Irikah would be okay with Thane assasinating people beacuse of the whole mind/body philosophy. he would excuse him just as he excuses himself. 'cause it's a drell thing

Then she's only okay with killing people when hired for it? Whether or not Thane is guilty of killing people once he married Irikah is a different debate--after all, then it was his choice to keep killing, not the will of the hanar. It's also possible that two people of identical belief systems might disagree anyway, just as humans do.

where does he imply that? he says that he didn't take lolyat because he couldn't do anything but kill. he never said he stopped

"I need to explain myself to you first. When I married Irikah, the hanar let me leave their service to raise a family. But I had no other skills, so I freelanced."

It's conjecture just in the way I can argue that the ambiguity of Thane's "away on business" line gives me the freedom to interpret she didn't know. You could argue he kept killing throughout, that's fine. But we do know there was a divide between when he was killing for the hanar, and when he chose to hire himself out.

lyssalu wrote...

oh lol

i can't believe i just thought of this

the big thing here is that kolyat knows that he's an assassin

why wouldn't irikah have known

the game itself portrays this as something that wasn't a family secret

Again. I have never, ever argued that Irikah didn't know he wass an assassin. I'm arguing whether or not she knew he kept doing it after they married.

Also, Kolyat didn't know. He found out because some volus business released his personal information too early.

Modifié par Saibh, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:23 .

[lyssalu]

...thane was also a very famous assassin by name



lol

[cindalkitty]

lyssalu wrote...

...thane was also a very famous assassin by name

lol

also, good point.

[lyssalu]

Saibh wrote...

mashavasilec wrote...

Irikah would be okay with Thane assasinating people beacuse of the whole mind/body philosophy. he would excuse him just as he excuses himself. 'cause it's a drell thing

Then she's only okay with killing people when hired for it? Whether or not Thane is guilty of killing people once he married Irikah is a different debate--after all, then it was his choice to keep killing, not the will of the hanar. It's also possible that two people of identical belief systems might disagree anyway, just as humans do.

where does he imply that? he says that he didn't take lolyat because he couldn't do anything but kill. he never said he stopped

"I need to explain myself to you first. When I married Irikah, the hanar let me leave their service to raise a family. But I had no other skills, so I freelanced."

It's conjecture just in the way I can argue that the ambiguity of Thane's "away on business" line gives me the freedom to interpret she didn't know. You could argue he kept killing throughout, that's fine. But we do know there was a divide between when he was killing for the hanar, and when he chose to hire himself out.

lyssalu wrote...

oh lol

i can't believe i just thought of this

the big thing here is that kolyat knows that he's an assassin

why wouldn't irikah have known

the game itself portrays this as something that wasn't a family secret

Again. I have never, ever argued that Irikah didn't know he wass an assassin. I'm arguing whether or not she knew he kept doing it after they married.

Also, Kolyat didn't know. He found out because some volus business released his personal information too early.

okay it was pretty obvious that that's what i implied in my post, so you clarifying that it was after marriage was completely unnecessary.

anyway this is a bunch of conspiracy making, so i'm gonna go sit in my nottryingtomakeshepardsrelationshipwiththanelookbetterthanhisrelationshipwithirikah corner

[lyssalu]

cindalkitty wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

...thane was also a very famous assassin by name

lol

also, good point.

it's like angelina jolie not realizing she's married to another celebrity

Modifié par lyssalu, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I don't even think Irikah was okay with Thane's work. Whether she was lied to or not (I personally don't believe he lied to her, but I think it MIGHT be possible in a way), she probably just knew that Thane was doing something unpleasant out there, and she tried to accept and live with it for both their sakes. It's Kolyat who probably didn't know anything, but then again, he was just a kid.

[lyssalu]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I don't even think Irikah was okay with Thane's work. Whether she was lied to or not (I personally don't believe he lied to her, but I think it MIGHT be possible in a way), she probably just knew that Thane was doing something unpleasant out there, and she tried to accept and live with it for both their sakes. It's Kolyat who probably didn't know anything, but then again, he was just a kid.

yeah, this, i would agree with.  she probably was less than thrilled.

[JECWSU]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I don't even think Irikah was okay with Thane's work. Whether she was lied to or not (I personally don't believe he lied to her, but I think it MIGHT be possible in a way), she probably just knew that Thane was doing something unpleasant out there, and she tried to accept and live with it for both their sakes. It's Kolyat who probably didn't know anything, but then again, he was just a kid.

I would agree with this. I really don't think he lied to her. I think she knew and just tried to deal with it the best way she could.

[Saibh]

cindalkitty wrote...

Whoa whoa whoa.

Back the Thanetrain up.

Saying he lied to Irikah is HUGELY speculative.  Not out of the wide realm of possibility (afterall, serial killer BTK managed to lead a double life for decades) but it is still a pretty big shot in the dark there.

However, given what we do know about Thane, I'm not inclined to believe he lied to Irikah about what he did.

Since we're clearly throwing out what we know of him at presence, as well as his spirituality and overall bluntness, I'll leave those aspects out and just tackle some of the more ephemeral aspects.

Was I being rude? No. Did I present my argument logically? I think so.

Why is it that no one is ever ever ever allowed to have a different opinion on Thane? I'm sorry, but this thread just about attacks anyone who has a slightly different opinion on anything. I'm so sick of it. It's not me--it's to anyone who comes here and has a different look on Thane's character. We've had moderators step in because of it.

1.)  If he did try to live a lie for the duration of his relationship, he was sloppy about it.
In the conversation where you receive his loyalty mission, if you ask him about wtf "Dance Crazy" means, he spouts off a memory where he's checking his extranet contacts and Kolyat comes running in to the room.  What does he do then?  Instead of hiding what he's doing, he picks his son up and spins him.

Console beeps, he puts Kolyat down, Kolyat pleads with him and tugs at his sleeve.  Thane ignores him.

First, I'd think this might get back around to Irikah in some way.  At least, it would be more likely than someone managing to keep his job a secret for 10 years.

Second, if he was trying to be uber secret agent, I doubt he'd checking his contacts so casually around his home.

"Hey, mom, dad was talking to his contacts."
"Was he, dear? Thane, were you?"
"Yes, my contact thinks I can get ten thousand Enkindler pamphlets printed for the price of five thousand."

If he never allowed any work to be done at home, then he would never be able to come back, would he? He was away enough as it were. I'm sure an uber-assassin can properly lock his computer from his wife and child.

2.) Irikah is a drell and likely understands The Compact and Body v. Soul
All we know about Irikah is from Thane.  She stepped between him and his contact and said "How dare you."  That is all we really know about her, aside from the fact that they had a drell kid, so she was likely also drell. 

Thane says that it is an honor to be selected to fulfill the Compact.  He is also likely not the only drell ever selected to do this.  I'd be interested in how this impacts drell cultures - like, are these people/families revered for their sacrafice?  Given the info from Thane and the info in the wiki, I'm more inclined to believe the eventuality of her forgiving him is based off of understanding and not a lie.

I already expressed how it could be different--it is most certainly Thane's choice to continue assassinating people. As I said, two people with the same belief system can still argue pretty vehemently on who is right on how it's carried out. Maybe she's okay with a Compact assassin--but would she be okay with a freelancer? I don't see why she would--it seems to me that she was under the impression she tried to stop a freelancer from killing. The hanar let him leave their service--afterwards, he choose to be hired and take lives.

3.)  The most failingest way to start off your double life...
When Shepard asks Thane how Irikah went from blocking his shot to having his kids, he says he fell to his knees before her, begged her pardon.  Eventually she forgave him.  Later, she loved him.  Keep in mind, he also says "she couldn't see me, but she stared me down."

If she couldn't see him, if he really wanted to lie from the start, totally free of suspicion to carry out this overarching lie of a life with her for nearly a decade, it would have been easier if he didn't throw himself at her feet and beg her forgiveness.  Much less work might have been involved if he'd just approached her as Thane the Brick Layer whose profession takes him away for weeks at a time instead of Thane of the Compact, whose job it is to kill people OH BUT I'LL GIVE IT ALL UP AND JUST BE GONE A LOT, KAY?

No.  This is what separates Thane from people who've managed to live double-lives for years on end - BTK likely didn't meet his wife while he was murdering someone and then tried to build a life around "I swear I'll never do it again, honey."

If you can't get points 1 and 2 right, the chances of succeeding at this lie of a life are greatly reduced and make the idea somewhat ludicrous to consider.

Never once has anyone led a double life, I'm sure. And been successful. It can be done and it has. By people who aren't professional sneaks, either. Maybe he didn't intend to keep assassinating--but he had no other skills, so he felt like he had no other choice.

I don't even know why I bother. This applies to several people: I was merely presenting the possibility. Discussion isn't cool, obviously. Hell, maybe I'm wrong, but it all seems like you guys picked up your pitchforks and went into attack mode.

Modifié par Saibh, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:45 .

[JECWSU]

If I was attacking you I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to. I just never really thought he lied to her. I know it's a possibility that he did. I always just assumed she knew even after they were married.

Modifié par JECWSU, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:52 .

[lyssalu]

if irikah were okay with the compact but not freelancing, why wouldn't  thane have returned to the compact instead of doing his own thing?

 Discussion isn't cool, obviously.

yeah, i guess not, since you're interpreting "discussion" as you being attacked simply because people have a different opinion and are trying to discuss it with you

,

would it have been a discussion if you had posed the argument and everyone was like, "oh, yeah, you're right," or, i dunno, ignored it, maybe?

what qualifies as a discussion,

Modifié par lyssalu, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:58 .

[Saibh]

lyssalu wrote...

if irikah were okay with the compact but not freelancing, why wouldn't thane return to the compact instead of doing his own thing?

I assumed (long before it ever occurred to me he might've been lying to her) that he had to leave the Compact to raise a family. I believe the line is "When I married Irikah, the hanar let me leave their service to raise a family. But I had no other skills, so I freelanced." I thought that meant he wasn't allowed to marry or have a family when bound to the hanar. He said the hanar treated him as a person, not just as a tool, so they released him from their service.

That's what I got out of it, anyway.

Modifié par Saibh, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:54 .

[JECWSU]

I don't think she was ever ok with any of it.