16751 réponses à ce sujet

[lyssalu]

Saibh wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

if irikah were okay with the compact but not freelancing, why wouldn't thane return to the compact instead of doing his own thing?

I assumed (long before it ever occurred to me he might've been lying to her) that he had to leave the Compact to raise a family. I believe the line is "When I married Irikah, the hanar let me leave their service to raise a family. But I had no other skills, so I freelanced." I thought that meant he wasn't allowed to marry or have a family when bound to the hanar. He said the hanar treated him as a person, not just as a tool, so they released him from their service.

That's what I got out of it, anyway.

no

the word was "let," as in, "allow," as in, "not forced"

so i don't think so

[Saibh]

lyssalu wrote...

no

the word was "let," as in, "allow," as in, "not forced"

so i don't think so

...What? I don't understand what you mean. I was saying that he asked the hanar to let him leave, and they did. I simply mean that he "had" to leave people Thane wasn't allowed to have a family and be a Compact assassin. So they let him have a family.

Point still stands.

[hanar05]

Was I being rude? No. Did I present my argument logically? I think so.

Why is it that no one is ever ever ever allowed to have a different opinion on Thane? I'm sorry, but this thread just about attacks anyone who has a slightly different opinion on anything.

I don't think anyone accused you of being rude, I thought everyone was just expressing their opinions. No need to get defensive I don't feel anyone was attacking you personally.

Modifié par hanar05, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:01 .

[lyssalu]

Saibh wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

no

the word was "let," as in, "allow," as in, "not forced"

so i don't think so

...What? I don't understand what you mean. I was saying that he asked the hanar to let him leave, and they did. I simply mean that he "had" to leave people Thane wasn't allowed to have a family and be a Compact assassin. So they let him have a family.

Point still stands.

he didn't say that the hanar let him have a family, he said that the hanar let him leave because he wanted a family.

he wasn't made to leave, he was allowed to leave.

[Saibh]

lyssalu wrote...

he didn't say that the hanar let him have a family, he said that the hanar let him leave because he wanted a family.

he wasn't made to leave, he was allowed to leave.

Exactly what I said. Point still stands.

I'm saying that "family" and "Compact" might be mutually exclusive. Can't have one while being bound to the other. They let him leave so he could raise a family--that's what he said, and that's what I'm saying.

hanar05 wrote...

I don't think anyone accused you of being rude, I thought everyone was just expressing their opinions. No need to get defensive I don't feel anyone was attacking you personally.

Not a personal "Saibh your name is stupid and has too many h's", no, but people seemed to be getting awfully aggressive and nasty about it. I don't need my opinions to be called ludicrous or be treated as if I'm stupid for having different ones. The evidence may exist, but I haven't seen definitive proof that he didn't lie--I was presenting the idea that maybe he did. If there's proof, as I said several times, then I'm wrong. That's fine.

[Epantiras]

Just wanted to say that the new Thane litograph looks awesome! Too bad I can't afford it v_v

It's a pity that the preview image is so small, it would have been an awesome desktop wallpaper.

[lyssalu]

Saibh wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

he didn't say that the hanar let him have a family, he said that the hanar let him leave because he wanted a family.

he wasn't made to leave, he was allowed to leave.

Exactly what I said. Point still stands.

I'm saying that "family" and "Compact" might be mutually exclusive. Can't have one while being bound to the other. They let him leave so he could raise a family--that's what he said, and that's what I'm saying.

what you are saying is not what i am saying.

you are saying that in order to have a family, you have to leave the compact.  this likely isn't so, as there is nothing to substantiate this.  had thane said, "i was made to leave the compact so that i could raise a family," this would be substantiated.  instead, he said that they allowed him to leave.  so essentially, what i am saying is:  wanting to start a family is likely grounds for being able to leave, but ultimately it is up to the drell as to whether or not they want to leave.

it seems kind of like the compact is something that children have no choice in, and once they've been admitted, they can't leave unless certain circumstances arise.  family is likely one of them.

that said, what you're saying is still a possibility, your logic just doesn't fully justify it.  for instance, what he said, what i said, and what you said, are all different things.

[hanar05]

Epantiras wrote...

Just wanted to say that the new Thane litograph looks awesome! Too bad I can't afford it v_v
It's a pity that the preview image is so small, it would have been an awesome desktop wallpaper.

Isn't it just? : D
I hope someone buys it and scans the image >___> It would be an amazing wallpaper!

[Saibh]

lyssalu wrote...

what you are saying is not what i am saying.

you are saying that in order to have a family, you have to leave the compact.  this likely isn't so, as there is nothing to substantiate this.  had thane said, "i was made to leave the compact so that i could raise a family," this would be substantiated.  instead, he said that they allowed him to leave.  so essentially, what i am saying is:  wanting to start a family is likely grounds for being able to leave, but ultimately it is up to the drell as to whether or not they want to leave.

it seems kind of like the compact is something that children have no choice in, and once they've been admitted, they can't leave unless certain circumstances arise.  family is likely one of them.

that said, what you're saying is still a possibility, your logic just doesn't fully justify it.  for instance, what he said, what i said, and what you said, are all different things.

Then it's a moot point, isn't it? Certainly not one I brought up. You asked why he didn't return to the Compact--maybe he couldn't with a family, that's all I was saying. If we knew for a fact, I wouldn't be debating this.

[lyssalu]

Saibh wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

what you are saying is not what i am saying.

you are saying that in order to have a family, you have to leave the compact.  this likely isn't so, as there is nothing to substantiate this.  had thane said, "i was made to leave the compact so that i could raise a family," this would be substantiated.  instead, he said that they allowed him to leave.  so essentially, what i am saying is:  wanting to start a family is likely grounds for being able to leave, but ultimately it is up to the drell as to whether or not they want to leave.

it seems kind of like the compact is something that children have no choice in, and once they've been admitted, they can't leave unless certain circumstances arise.  family is likely one of them.

that said, what you're saying is still a possibility, your logic just doesn't fully justify it.  for instance, what he said, what i said, and what you said, are all different things.

Then it's a moot point, isn't it? Certainly not one I brought up. You asked why he didn't return to the Compact--maybe he couldn't with a family, that's all I was saying. If we knew for a fact, I wouldn't be debating this.

i raised that question in order to show you that your line of argumentation was illogical.  you gave me an answer that was, once again, speculative, so that you wouldn't have to backtrack on the presumptions you've made about irikah and her situation.

[Saibh]

lyssalu wrote...

i raised that question in order to show you that your line of argumentation was illogical.  you gave me an answer that was, once again, speculative, so that you wouldn't have to backtrack on the presumptions you've made about irikah and her situation.

Your argument in and of itself was speculation. You assume that he could rejoin the Compact--maybe he can't, maybe he can. Either way, you've only presented more conjecture and speculation to back up a theory that is just as speculative as my own. As I've said, no one has offered definitive proof.

If you were saying that I was wrong because he could rejoin the Compact, then you need to prove he can, can't you?

[cindalkitty]

1.) Forgive me for not ending with ludicrous "to me."

2.) Telling people to supply proof that he didn't do something without being able to supply proof that he did do something doesn't get anyone anywhere. Because neither side is capable of producing anything meaningful.

3.) However, stating points in opposition to what has been presented is not an attack, it's debating. It is discussing. That is what was wanted, wasn't it? or was it only allowed to be discussed so long as the points were in agreement and elaborated on? I apologize if it came off as aggressive, but I prefer to present things in an organized and logical manner; and, it would have been lame of me to just say "no u" and not back myself up with anything, which is what was asked of Masha. I was debating the likelihood and potential success while fully acknowledging that it could happen, just... not likely... for the reasons stated.

In addition to how the game plays it as him being the galaxy's most famous assassin via an actual news blurb on Ilium, and Kolyat knowing his dad's an assassin... I'm sorry, but it makes it very difficult to sit back and speculate something that feels more OOC for him than not.

Modifié par cindalkitty, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:27 .

[lyssalu]

Saibh wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

i raised that question in order to show you that your line of argumentation was illogical.  you gave me an answer that was, once again, speculative, so that you wouldn't have to backtrack on the presumptions you've made about irikah and her situation.

Your argument in and of itself was speculation. You assume that he could rejoin the Compact--maybe he can't, maybe he can. Either way, you've only presented more conjecture and speculation to back up a theory that is just as speculative as my own. As I've said, no one has offered definitive proof.

If you were saying that I was wrong because he could rejoin the Compact, then you need to prove he can, can't you?

as it stands in the game, there is no reason he couldn't have.

basically, i'm paying attention to the wording instead of throwing my own thoughts into it.

"allowed" and "made to leave" are two very different things.

Modifié par lyssalu, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:29 .

[NeitiCora]

Just saying this from a bystander's point of view, I don't see anyone attacking anyone's opinions here, I find such an argument odd. A viewpoint was stated on a forum, thus submitted to discussion among the participants on the said forum. We're discussing these viewpoints now, aren't we?

I do find Saibh's view interesting enough that I really considered the arguments to see whether this could sound plausible to me. This sure makes for a conversation factor at least!

However, in all honesty, most of what is being suggested sounds wildly out of character to me. Again, we're all doing this speculation based on what we know of him and how each of us, individually, interprets this information.

The way I interpreted Thane's personality, it sounds pretty odd for him to live some a double-life at home and or lie to Irikah. I just can't see why he'd be pursuing a life of lie, when the way he acts in the game suggests he's rather straightforward about even the most sensitive matters.

Ah wells, to put it shortly, I think lyssalu's take sounds much more plausible to me. Absolutely no offence meant!

Modifié par NeitiCora, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:33 .

[Saibh]

cindalkitty wrote...

1.) Forgive me for not ending with ludicrous "to me."

And I'm sorry for getting defensive. Being on the receiving end of the gang up game isn't fun, even if I've done it myself.

2.) Telling people to supply proof that he didn't do something without being able to supply proof that he did do something doesn't get anyone anywhere. Because neither side is capable of producing anything meaningful.

I never said it wasn't conjecture. I'm discussing a character on a character discussion page. I don't understand why people get so defensive about it. If you could supply me definitive proof, I'd back down--that's what I'm saying. Since you can't, I'm free to keep debating, aren't I? It'd be pretty stupid of me to keep arguing if you did.

3.) However, stating points in opposition to what has been presented is not an attack, it's debating. It is discussing. That is what was wanted, wasn't it? or was it only allowed to be discussed so long as the points were in agreement and elaborated on? I apologize if it came off as aggressive, but I prefer to present things in an oganized and logical manner; and, it would have been lame of me to just say "no u" and not back myself up with anything, which is what was asked of Masha. I was debating the likelihood and potential success while fully acknowledging that it could happen, just... not likely... for the reasons stated.

It seems to me that people were being aggressive. I was frustrated, and there's no point in naming names since that will upset people.

In addition to how the game plays it as him being the galaxy's most famous assassin via an actual news blurb on Ilium, and Kolyat knowing his dad's an assassin... I'm sorry, but it makes it very difficult to sit back and speculate something that feels more OOC for him than not.

Kolyat found out his father was an assassin (unless I am grossly misremembering something). He didn't know right away. Besides that, whether or not people know that Thane Krios was behind certain assassinations can't be proven. It should be certain they never had enough evidence to prove he killed people, or else he'd go to jail.

lyssalu wrote...

as it stands in the game, there is no reason he couldn't have.

basically, i'm paying attention to the wording instead of throwing my own thoughts into it.

"allowed" and "made to leave" are two very different things.

Depends on the scenario. Why would he say "made to leave" if he wasn't sitting on the hanar's doorstep threatening to run away and elope if they didn't let him? It could have easily been peaceable, as I'm sure it was. They "let" him leave because he wanted to.

Just like you can quit your job, if they're not holding you at gun point they "let" you leave, right? But would they rehire you? No--well, probably not. Does that change the fact you were "allowed" to leave?

Modifié par Saibh, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:36 .

[lyssalu]

it's a game with a story. the writers aren't trying to convolute thane's background. if they wanted to leave you with the impression that thane could not continue working for the compact because of the fact that he wanted to start a family, they would have. instead, the implications are that thane left the compact for familial reasons, and they allowed it.

no where in this is there the implication that he wouldn't be welcomed back to the compact, even though he has a family, if he so desired.

that is all i'm trying to say.

Modifié par lyssalu, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:39 .

[NeitiCora]

Saibh I really have to ask you something - if you state an opinion that happens to deviate from the thinking of some other members, what are the rest of us supposed to do, if we're not allowed to argue back without the fear of offending? Honestly, I mean this with all kindness. I don't think anyone's ganging up on you.

I'm just discussing because I find the subject interesting.

Modifié par NeitiCora, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:42 .

[Saibh]

mashavasilec wrote...

Saibh wrote...


I never said it wasn't conjecture. I'm discussing a character on a character discussion page. I don't understand why people get so defensive about it. If you could supply me definitive proof, I'd back down--that's what I'm saying. Since you can't, I'm free to keep debating, aren't I? It'd be pretty stupid of me to keep arguing if you did.

sooo we are to talk you out of this?

not interested

Yeah, you know, you'd be the top offender of "I'm being rude and not contributing anything"

Let's turn it the other way shall we?

I never said it wasn't conjecture. I'm discussing a character on a character discussion page. I don't understand why people get so defensive about it. If you I could supply me you with definitive proof, I'd back down you couldn't debate. Since you I can't, I'm you're free to keep debating, aren't I you? It'd be pretty stupid of me you to keep arguing if you I did.

Point being neither side can supply definitive proof, so the discussion continues. If you could, it would end. Are you really that anti-discussion on a discussion thread?

Modifié par Saibh, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:44 .

[lyssalu]

Saibh wrote...

mashavasilec wrote...

Saibh wrote...


I never said it wasn't conjecture. I'm discussing a character on a character discussion page. I don't understand why people get so defensive about it. If you could supply me definitive proof, I'd back down--that's what I'm saying. Since you can't, I'm free to keep debating, aren't I? It'd be pretty stupid of me to keep arguing if you did.

sooo we are to talk you out of this?

not interested

Yeah, you know, you'd be the top offender of "I'm being rude and not contributing anything"

that was rude and didn't contribute anything

[cindalkitty]

mashavasilec wrote...

Saibh wrote...


I never said it wasn't conjecture. I'm discussing a character on a character discussion page. I don't understand why people get so defensive about it. If you could supply me definitive proof, I'd back down--that's what I'm saying. Since you can't, I'm free to keep debating, aren't I? It'd be pretty stupid of me to keep arguing if you did.

sooo we are to talk you out of this?

not interested

Yeah... asking someone to supply proof in response to something that isn't being proven, either, is sort of a waste of time.  Neither side of the discussion can do this.  That only leaves likelihood based off of what has been given to us through the game.
In any case, when introducing something new, the burden of proof falls on the person presenting their idea.

[Saibh]

NeitiCora wrote...

Saibh I really have to ask you something - if you state an opinion that happens to deviate from the thinking of some other members, what are the rest of us supposed to do, if we're not allowed to argue back without the fear of offending? Honestly, I mean this with all kindness. I don't think anyone's ganging up on you.

I'm just discussing because I find the subject interesting.

I'm just going to point out mash's repeated snide comments. I misunderstood cindal, who seemed like she was making an overall "no, you're being an idiot" comment when she wasn't. And I saw some comments like "lol that's stupid" going on that kept frustrating me because I thought I was being pretty logical.

I can't stress enough that I was merely presenting the possibility. People kept repeatedly misunderstanding me, and, as I said, I was frustrated. I thought I was being coherent, but maybe not.

I apologize now, but I like character discussion, and it seemed to me like people were being more aggressive--not everyone, as I've explained, but some--then wanted to actually discuss it.

lyssalu wrote...

it's a game with a story. the writers aren't trying to convolute thane's background. if they wanted to leave you with the impression that thane could not continue working for the compact because of the fact that he wanted to start a family, they would have. instead, the implications are that thane left the compact for familial reasons, and they allowed it.

no where in this is there the implication that he wouldn't be welcomed back to the compact, even though he has a family, if he so desired.

that is all i'm trying to say.

I'm just going to say that I thought Compact and family don't mix the very first time I heard that discussion, completely irrelevant to what we're talking about now. The statement was ambiguous enough for me to interepret it one way without any extra motivation--that's just the way I saw it. You saw it your way.

As it is, that line was pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of things. They didn't forsee us having this conversation I'm sure, and picking apart every little thing.

When things are left up to speculation, people speculate.

lyssalu wrote...

that was rude and didn't contribute anything

Then maybe people shouldn't be rude and not contribute anything. I was civil the first few times it was done, and I don't see why mash should keep being snide.

[Saibh]

cindalkitty wrote...

mashavasilec wrote...

Saibh wrote...


I never said it wasn't conjecture. I'm discussing a character on a character discussion page. I don't understand why people get so defensive about it. If you could supply me definitive proof, I'd back down--that's what I'm saying. Since you can't, I'm free to keep debating, aren't I? It'd be pretty stupid of me to keep arguing if you did.

sooo we are to talk you out of this?

not interested

Yeah... asking someone to supply proof in response to something that isn't being proven, either, is sort of a waste of time.  Neither side of the discussion can do this.  That only leaves likelihood based off of what has been given to us through the game.
In any case, when introducing something new, the burden of proof falls on the person presenting their idea.

Alright, it's things like this that got me thinking people were being aggressive.

I never said that you need to give me proof right now or else I win. I said that, since you can't, and since I can't, debate goes on. That it's speculation.

Because I can't help but feel--since I've explained it isn't the case--you're deliberately misunderstanding me. It seems like you're saying I've done something wrong that I've never done to begin with. That's what gets frustrating.

[cindalkitty]

Saibh said...



If you could supply me definitive proof, I'd back down--that's what I'm saying. Since you can't, I'm free to keep debating, aren't I?

It's not a debate if you're talking to yourself, though. If you keep debating, everyone else will, too. And you want "definitive proof" which can't be supplied, so...