16751 réponses à ce sujet

[monima]

I think the death of his wife caused him to spiral downwards because he blaimed himself. He choose to enstrage himself from his son to prevent his way of life to destroy Kolyat as well. So I see thoose two as interconnected.One happened because of the other.



Some people think his illness defines him, and it was the reason he decided to help Kolyat. I am pretty sure Thane would have stepped in sick or not if his son was walking in his footsteps. Because thats the reason he left in the first place (that an vengance)



And to be honest many of the characters in ME are pretty tragic, they just dont talk about it as much.

[Tentura]

Thanks for your responses!  I had just been thinking about it this morning... and wondered what others thought.  Opinions are the expected response - so no need to apologize for them!  I expect that different people will feel different ways.

I feel that most of the other characters have a great deal of tragedy in their lives, too.  For instance, Garrus has had to cope with lots- from his daddy's disapproval to Sidonis' betrayal, not to mention his judgmental sister and ill mother from the SB's files.  I am not entirely sure why Thane so often gets singled out for this.

I agree with your thoughts, Gnas.  I dislike describing Thane's life story as 'drama' ... so many dismiss it as if the writers were just pulling tragedies out of a hat and assigning them without thought.  Maybe it is a maturity thing... maybe a player needs to have experienced enough life to see that almost everyone goes through periods of pain, and that it can be an important factor in shaping who a person becomes.  It's like how some people can't romance Thane because he loved (and still loves) someone else.  To me, it makes no sense that he should have to turn off loving Irikah, just because he starts loving Shep. I think that is another maturity issue.  The other thing you mentioned also made sense to me - some people might be playing the game looking for a fairy-tale-sappy-happy story... and this just doesn't fit that bill.  Others, who are looking for an immersive, but still realistic and life-like experience, might find it more appealing.

I feel like the loss of Irikah and the situation with Kolyat are both believable and appropriate in his story.  I see it as an important part of what made him the person he is in ME2.  Though we are not really given a glimpse of him when he was married, these events can kind of allow you to paint a picture of it in your mind.  Perhaps he was too confident.  Perhaps he was unwilling to acknowledge the risks of his job.  But, whatever the case, the pain that he went through after his wife was murdered helped form his character as it is now, I think.  So, yes, I feel it's necessary.

I agree with abnocte about the illness.  Despite it occasionally coming up in discussion, it was never the focus of my thoughts.  (Except when I take him to Pragia... for some reason that rainy exterior always makes me think of it!)  I think maybe it gave him a sense of urgency to come to terms with his son, but I think that he would have done that anyway.  Plus, I always think - if the illness were removed from the story, I can't really see his character being much different.  I think removing the loss of his wife or having an estranged son would affect who he is much, much more.

[Kim Shepard]

I agree with what you guys already said. Thane's been through a lot, more than most of our other squadmates, but that's life. Some people really do have one tragedy after another. I don't see it as unrealistic, and the way he deals with it is completely believeable. I have Shepards whose lives are a "tragedy overload" too. Most, if not all, of my favorite characters have survived a hard life.

Not to mention, with all of the squadmates who have problems that wouldn't work outside of a sci-fi setting or just aren't that common, Thane's problems are pretty common in real life.

[Juliaxo]

Gnas wrote...

Tentura wrote...
Just a little thought: I have heard several people lately describe Thane's character as too overloaded with downers and drama. Namely, his dead wife, estranged son, *and* terminal illness. How do you feel about this? Do you think it's too much, or do you like it as it is? Do you think he'd be more believable/relatable without one of the three? (Don't just say disease because you want him better!!) Lots of people say his illness defines him as a character - do you feel that is true or do you think the other two have more impact on him?

Disclaimer: I am about to make some statements that I know I will mostly likely suffer consequences for uttering but the statements reflect my opinions and beliefs.

Having said that:

I believe that those who make the statement that his illness defines him as a character do not have the life experiences to truly understand the impact of a terminal illness on an individual. Thane in his journey, is propagating the four necessities all humans go through when facing the end of their life: Forgive me, I forgive you, I love you and good bye. Should Thane die in ME3, its his life journey and how he lived until the moment of death. Thane isn't dead, he's alive until the moment of his death.

I also come from the perspective that many who see Thane as overloaded with downers and drama also do not have the life experience to appreciate complex characters who have been written with a full life full of joy, sorrow, fear, rage, shame and guilt. Thane runs the gamete of a life lived. His life experiences define him as a character. His loss of Irikah, the estrangement from Kolyat as well as his knowledge of his own mortality.

Thane is an example of a life lived and lived almost fearlessly. He makes no apologies for his actions, he accepts the responsiblity of his life choices yet he is in search of redemption and atonement. His spirituality reflects his internal strife to understand and reconcile his actions with the outcomes and consequences of those actions.

Thane is a mature character. There is no black and white for him as a character. There is only a million shades of gray. This is an aspect, I believe, is what those who are willing to see, can appreciate. For those who are looking for something to either find pleasure in, lose themselves in, forget or use to numb themselves, it would be an uncomfortable scenario. There is too much life in Thane and that can be uncomfortable.

Thoughts?

I think you hit the nail on the head with this post. I sometimes get the feeling that certain people look at Thane and can't see past the expiration date. In their opinion, he's dying so it's not worth investing anything in him.  I think people forget that, like you said "Thane isn't dead. He's alive until the moment of his death" the same as anyone else. He is worth getting to know and understanding, regardless of how long he has. Whether it's one year or ten.  There is so much depth to him that is overlooked. I thought he was a fascinating character to get to know. Some people also don't like that he talks about his wife or that he has an estranged son, but those talks were his way of explaining himself to Shepard. It's part of his life experience and what defines him.  He's straightfoward and honest about all of it. The fact that he had a wife ten years ago and that he loved her does not mean he can't love Shepard now. The fact the he is dying does not mean that he can't love Shepard or that she shouldn't love him.

I only worry about his illness in terms of how Bioware plan to handle his character in ME3. They've created a fascinating character and whether he lives or dies I hope the conclusion of his story is worthy of him. No emails informing my Shepard of his death, please.

[monima]

Tentura wrote...

Thanks for your responses!  I had just been thinking about it this morning... and wondered what others thought.  Opinions are the expected response - so no need to apologize for them!  I expect that different people will feel different ways.

I feel that most of the other characters have a great deal of tragedy in their lives, too.  For instance, Garrus has had to cope with lots- from his daddy's disapproval to Sidonis' betrayal, not to mention his judgmental sister and ill mother from the SB's files.  I am not entirely sure why Thane so often gets singled out for this.

I agree with your thoughts, Gnas.  I dislike describing Thane's life story as 'drama' ... so many dismiss it as if the writers were just pulling tragedies out of a hat and assigning them without thought.  Maybe it is a maturity thing... maybe a player needs to have experienced enough life to see that almost everyone goes through periods of pain, and that it can be an important factor in shaping who a person becomes.  It's like how some people can't romance Thane because he loved (and still loves) someone else.  To me, it makes no sense that he should have to turn off loving Irikah, just because he starts loving Shep. I think that is another maturity issue.  The other thing you mentioned also made sense to me - some people might be playing the game looking for a fairy-tale-sappy-happy story... and this just doesn't fit that bill.  Others, who are looking for an immersive, but still realistic and life-like experience, might find it more appealing.

I feel like the loss of Irikah and the situation with Kolyat are both believable and appropriate in his story.  I see it as an important part of what made him the person he is in ME2.  Though we are not really given a glimpse of him when he was married, these events can kind of allow you to paint a picture of it in your mind.  Perhaps he was too confident.  Perhaps he was unwilling to acknowledge the risks of his job.  But, whatever the case, the pain that he went through after his wife was murdered helped form his character as it is now, I think.  So, yes, I feel it's necessary.

I agree with abnocte about the illness.  Despite it occasionally coming up in discussion, it was never the focus of my thoughts.  (Except when I take him to Pragia... for some reason that rainy exterior always makes me think of it!)  I think maybe it gave him a sense of urgency to come to terms with his son, but I think that he would have done that anyway.  Plus, I always think - if the illness were removed from the story, I can't really see his character being much different.  I think removing the loss of his wife or having an estranged son would affect who he is much, much more.

I agree with all of this. Especially that the death of his wife and loss of his son affects him a lot more than his illness. I always thought of him as someone that would die for the people he loves in a heartbeat, meaning his own life is not as important to him as they are.

I think people are just trying to kill of the characters they dont like, or are not important to them. Thinking that bioware will spend more time on their favourites instead, Which is just silly. I certainly hope they will be fair on all the characters, especially those characters designed as love intrests. Including Thane<3

[Kim Shepard]

With the Reaper battle coming, I don't think the lives of the other squadmates or even Shepard are any more of a sure thing than Thane's survival through ME3. I know I worry about Shepard most of all. I don't think Thane should die from his illness before or during ME3. Assuming it won't start long after ME2, Thane still has plenty of time left, and even if he is running low on time, people have lived with an illness longer than expected, especially if they have a strong will to live. There is no real "expiration date."

Juliaxo wrote...

I only worry about his illness in terms of how Bioware plan to handle his character in ME3. They've created a fascinating character and whether he lives or dies I hope the conclusion of his story is worthy of him. No emails informing my Shepard of his death, please.

Yeah, no e-mails. >_<

[Collider]

I do believe that Thane's illness is part of his character and part of his drive to do what he is doing. I am fairly certain that Thane himself says something to this effect. However, I do not think that he should die in ME3. Either elongate his life and/or leave his fate ambiguous at the end. IMO.

[Kim Shepard]

The way I see it, Thane's illness in relation to Shepard's mission means that he would be able to fight without fear of death because he's already accepted it. And I agree with you about Thane's fate in the end.

[Sable Rhapsody]

As one of the people who HAS leveled the charge at Thane (and Zev) for being saddled with unnecessary drama, allow me to explain my position.



I like Thane as a character. My objections have to do with the METAGAME and the design of a character. David Gaider recently gave an interview about the DA2 characters and how he approaches game writing. Characters for him act as "ciphers" for the world, forming an emotional connection for the player to invest in. That emotional investment gets the player really passionate about the game and its world.



The core of my meta objection to Thane's design is this: as a narrative "cipher," his backstory and so-called angst don't really serve their purpose effectively. I'm not judging whether Thane's experiences are unrealistic or whatever. As pointed out by Tentura, Garrus has lots of problems too. But as a narrative "cipher" or emotional hook, Garrus doesn't use all that angst. Garrus's narrative hooks are his self-confidence, his vigilantism, and his revenge issues. I honestly think it would have been better if Thane's hook had, from a meta perspective, been either his illness OR his family problems, not both. Cold as it sounds, I think characters in video games need to walk a fine line between being 100% realistic and working as effective narrative tools--they don't get as much time or text as book characters, and so they need to come off more cohesive.



Thane, IMO, lacked the narrative cohesion that I would've liked to see for so fascinating a character. I felt like BioWare didn't really know what to do with him. I honestly did feel like the dead wife/estranged son thing was tacked on and unnecessary for him as a NARRATIVE TOOL. And I felt like it showed in the inconsistent tone of his writing. And I feel like he would have worked as a better character from a meta perspective IF his backstory trouble had been parsed to one major thing for Shep to address in the game.



A counterexample to Thane of a character who IMO worked extraordinarily well as a narrative cipher is Legion. Legion's primary purpose was to inform the player about the geth, but do so in a way that elicited sympathy and understanding. Everyone loves Legion XD And Legion has changed most players' minds about the geth, or at least about those specific thousand-odd programs. Just my 2 cents.

[Kim Shepard]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Thane, IMO, lacked the narrative cohesion that I would've liked to see for so fascinating a character. I felt like BioWare didn't really know what to do with him. I honestly did feel like the dead wife/estranged son thing was tacked on and unnecessary for him as a NARRATIVE TOOL. And I felt like it showed in the inconsistent tone of his writing. And I feel like he would have worked as a better character from a meta perspective IF his backstory trouble had been parsed to one major thing for Shep to address in the game.

Actually, if I had to choose just one of Thane's issues, it would be the wife and son. Mostly because assassin characters interest me, and so does the effect it has on their personal life and family. His job lead to the death of his wife, then he killed her murderers and stayed away from his son to keep him safe. To me, that kind of history makes him interesting. An illness wouldn't be something that makes me think a character is interesting, but the way he handles it could be. Just my opinion.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...
Actually, if I had to choose just one of Thane's issues, it would be the wife and son. Mostly because assassin characters interest me, and so does the effect it has on their personal life and family. His job lead to the death of his wife, then he killed her murderers and stayed away from his son to keep him safe. To me, that kind of history makes him interesting. An illness wouldn't be something that makes me think a character is interesting, but the way he handles it could be. Just my opinion.

I would've preferred the dying thing since it was...hmm...different.  I'm on record as someone who really does not like the dead ex and/or estranged child trope.  I've even gotten yelled at by David Gaider for it   IMO, that trope is overdone beyond flogging a dead horse--it's like a zombie horse or something.

I'm not judging THANE as a person over it--but from a meta perspective, I wish it hadn't been there for the character.

[Tinve]

Gnas wrote...
Thane isn't dead, he's alive until the moment of his death.

In a good old song that I often hear there are these words: "There are only a moment between past and future. It is called life." lyricstranslate.com/ru/est-tolco-mig-there-only-moment.html

Do not talk about someone like the dead until he breathed his last. No need to write off someone from the accounts ahead of time. No need to feel sorry about what has not happened yet. We do not know our future. "All the things - and laudable, and everyday - good in its time. Even the prayer may be delayed." ©

Modifié par Tinve, 27 décembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[Kim Shepard]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I would've preferred the dying thing since it was...hmm...different.  I'm on record as someone who really does not like the dead ex and/or estranged child trope.  I've even gotten yelled at by David Gaider for it   IMO, that trope is overdone beyond flogging a dead horse--it's like a zombie horse or something.

I'm not judging THANE as a person over it--but from a meta perspective, I wish it hadn't been there for the character.

Haha. xD I kind of want to see that...

Personally, I think the reason why I find the wife and child interesting for Thane is because it's related to him being an assassin. If it was for any other reason, my opinion would be the same as the one about illness - it doesn't make the character interesting, but how they react to it and who they become because of it does. I just like a lot of characters who are assassins. When I like a particular history or "issue" that a character has, I think it's interesting no matter how many times it's done (as long as it's done well, of course - and this is BioWare, so it's always done well).

It's the same thing as Jack's past for me, actually. I've seen the prisoner, tortured childhood, and living weapon stories done many times, but I expected to find her character interesting because of them, before I knew anything about her personality. And I was right.

[Juliaxo]

The core of my meta objection to Thane's design is this: as a narrative "cipher," his backstory and so-called angst don't really serve their purpose effectively. I'm not judging whether Thane's experiences are unrealistic or whatever. As pointed out by Tentura, Garrus has lots of problems too. But as a narrative "cipher" or emotional hook, Garrus doesn't use all that angst. Garrus's narrative hooks are his self-confidence, his vigilantism, and his revenge issues. I honestly think it would have been better if Thane's hook had, from a meta perspective, been either his illness OR his family problems, not both. Cold as it sounds, I think characters in video games need to walk a fine line between being 100% realistic and working as effective narrative tools--they don't get as much time or text as book characters, and so they need to come off more cohesive.

How are Thane's family problems and terminal illness mutually exclusive though? I think the family problems define him more as a character and the illness is used more as a motivator for him to reflect, tie up loose ends, and join the suicide mission. He feels like his illness is what he deserves for his 'ill-spent life' and he's determined not to see his son go down the same path. He's resigned to that outlook unless Shepard helps him change his mind and helps him set Kolyat on a better path. I guess I don't understand why you feel it isn't cohesive?

I suppose I can understand if people think it's too much angst for one character. I guess it is difficult to judge if you're doing too much with a character or too little. Especially since opinions vary so much from person to person. Going further with your example and as someone who loves Garrus to bits I have to admit I felt like Bioware were afraid to take risks with his character because he was such an unexpected fan favorite. We only found out about his mother's illness from his dossier and until his dossier we didn't even know he had a sister. There's so much we don't know because we're so limited in what he shares with the player, even if you romance him. His loyalty mission also seemed kind of like a retread of his side mission in ME1 when he wanted revenge against Dr.Saleon. It's like Bioware were afraid "unnecessary drama" would spoil him so they stuck to what made him so well-liked in the first game only that stunted his growth as a character in ME2. It felt too much like the same thing in some ways and some people complained about that. It's a hard line to tread.

Modifié par Juliaxo, 27 décembre 2010 - 11:16 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Kim Shepard wrote...
 When I like a particular history or "issue" that a character has, I think it's interesting no matter how many times it's done (as long as it's done well, of course - and this is BioWare, so it's always done well).

It's the same thing as Jack's past for me, actually. I've seen the prisoner, tortured childhood, and living weapon stories done many times, but I expected to find her character interesting because of them, before I knew anything about her personality. And I was right.

I tend to notice patterns in video games, especially BioWare's.  And that's ok, I understand there's no such thing as an original story, and it's execution that matters.  But for me at least, overexposure to one trope or issue does cause it to lose its emotional punch.  And after Aribeth, Aarin Gend, Carth, Jaheira, Zev, Thane, Sky, Valen, and probably more that I'm forgetting, I think I am allowed to call "overdone" on the dead ex thing.  MY MONKEY WRENCH OF SYMPATHY CAN'T FIX ANY MORE PEOPLE.  I IRRATIONALLY WANT TO PUNCH CHARACTERS WITH THIS TROPE.  I AM JUST A TINY LITTLE BIT SICK OF IT. 

And if you wanna see Gaider yelling at me, it's here:  http://social.biowar...1/index/4954850  It was all in good humor, of course.

Juliaxo wrote...

How are Thane's family problems and terminal illness mutually exclusive though? I think the family problems define him more as a character and the illness is used more as a motivator for him to reflect, tie up loose ends, and join the suicide mission. He feels like his illness is what he deserves for his 'ill-spent life' and he's determined not to see his son go down the same path. He's resigned to that outlook unless Shepard helps him change his mind and helps him set Kolyat on a better path. I guess I don't understand why you feel it isn't cohesive?

Hmm.  OK, lemme parse apart the issue.  I guess I didn't clarify what part of his character I found less cohesive.  I felt like the tone of the writing was inconsistent--Thane wavered between calm and closed off, emotional, and confidently "badass," often within the same conversation.  I think it took too long for a clear tone to be established for the character (after his loyalty mission), and I think that like Jack, anyone who didn't romance him didn't get nearly as much as the character had to give.  

As for Thane's family problems and personal illness, they are not mutually exclusive in the slightest in a story sense.  But I felt it was too much angst from a meta perspective.  At a certain point, my ability to suspend disbelief that that much bad stuff has happened to one person sort of snaps, and I just kind of roll my eyes and go, "OK, what's next?  Your puppy was kicked?"  Maybe I'm just a horrible person, but it is possible to oversaturate your audience.  The same thing happened to me with Jack.  I think that from a narrative tool perspective, Thane would have been more EFFECTIVE of an emotional hook for more players if his backstory had been simpler.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 27 décembre 2010 - 11:24 .

[abnocte]

@Sable Rhapsody

I see your point.

I don't usually give Thane illness much of a though since it's effect don't show in ME2. But when you think about it, it really comes as a little off, it doesn't really add much to his character.
As I said earlier, after his revenge he could have made the same decisions just from the insight into himself he got from it. And he discovers about Kolyat trying to imitate him after joining you( doesn't he? ), he is already in a death situation, illness aside, so I take his decision would have been the same, help his son.

That's why I look forward to what Bioware is going to do with him in ME3. If in ME3 his illness serves a narrative pourpose then all the angst will make sense. Then it's only logical that in ME2 he is already ill ( just imagine him being healthy in ME2, and discovering in ME3 he has an illness just because its an excuse to move the plot forward.... ) 

I must say though that if I had to choose between illness and dead wife/estrangled son, I would choose the later even if it's been done to death. I just have a hard time imagining only the illness as a strong narrative hook...

[Tinve]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I felt like the tone of the writing was inconsistent--Thane wavered between calm and closed off, emotional, and confidently "badass," often within the same conversation.

I think it's okay. This happens when the emotional and energetic person to restrict rigid rules and conventions. Something like I experienced. So what are you talking to me was rather pleasant surprise.  I think that if it had not occurred to him he could be something similar to Garrus.
But I have to agree with you that in Thane nature of something is not finished ... lost the whole picture. Maybe because we know little about his life except basic biographical facts.
Reaction Thain to: refusal to continue the relationship, the claim that hanars used by drells as slaves, in a conversation with Mouse. I think all this shows is that if it "wake up ", he definitely will not be Knight of the Sorrowful Countenance ... far from it.
No! I should not think about it! I wake up in himself ferret-rowdy.

Modifié par Tinve, 28 décembre 2010 - 12:05 .

[Juliaxo]

The only Bioware games I've played are Dragon Age and Mass Effect 1 & 2 so I'm not really familiar with Carth and the rest. Therefore, the dead ex/estranged son trope doesn't really bother me at all. I didn't even realize it was such an issue with some people until visiting these boards.



I can understand how maybe it seems like too much angst for one person but some people do have very difficult lives. While playing ME2 I just wanted to give Thane a hug, same with Jack (though she'd probably hit me with a biotic shockwave for it). Some of the marketing videos for Thane seemed inconsistent but nothing sticks out to me in the actual game. I know he seems rather cold and confidently badass when you first meet him but there's more going on under the surface and you have to talk to him to find that out. For instance, he gets slightly defensive about his illness assuring Shepard he won't be a burden and brushing aside her offer to have Chakwas look into it for him. He doesn't want to be seen as a liability. Thane strikes me as someone who is confident in his abilities and outwardly cold to those who don't really know him. By his own admission, Shepard is the only person he really opens up to in ten years so she gets to peek at his more vulnerable/emotional side. It's the first time in awhile he's letting anyone know that side of him.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Juliaxo wrote...

The only Bioware games I've played are Dragon Age and Mass Effect 1 & 2 so I'm not really familiar with Carth and the rest. Therefore, the dead ex/estranged son trope doesn't really bother me at all. I didn't even realize it was such an issue with some people until visiting these boards.

I can understand how maybe it seems like too much angst for one person but some people do have very difficult lives. While playing ME2 I just wanted to give Thane a hug, same with Jack (though she'd probably hit me with a biotic shockwave for it).

Yeah, the degree to which you have a problem with the trope obviously depends on your exposure.  One of the few drawbacks of playing lots and lots of BioWare games 

Meta-wise, I think of it as me having an emotional "bank" for each character that I like--which was everyone in ME2.  Jack and Thane overdrafted on the emotional bank.  That's all.  I still like them, I just think it was too much from a narrative standpoint.  And I understand that's my opinion--I just wanted to clarify why someone might find Thane's backstory to be a bit too much.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Gnas wrote...

Disclaimer: I am about to make some statements that I know I will mostly likely suffer consequences for uttering but the statements reflect my opinions and beliefs.

Having said that:

I believe that those who make the statement that his illness defines him as a character do not have the life experiences to truly understand the impact of a terminal illness on an individual. Thane in his journey, is propagating the four necessities all humans go through when facing the end of their life: Forgive me, I forgive you, I love you and good bye. Should Thane die in ME3, its his life journey and how he lived until the moment of death. Thane isn't dead, he's alive until the moment of his death.

I also come from the perspective that many who see Thane as overloaded with downers and drama also do not have the life experience to appreciate complex characters who have been written with a full life full of joy, sorrow, fear, rage, shame and guilt. Thane runs the gamete of a life lived. His life experiences define him as a character. His loss of Irikah, the estrangement from Kolyat as well as his knowledge of his own mortality.

Thane is an example of a life lived and lived almost fearlessly. He makes no apologies for his actions, he accepts the responsiblity of his life choices yet he is in search of redemption and atonement. His spirituality reflects his internal strife to understand and reconcile his actions with the outcomes and consequences of those actions.

Thane is a mature character. There is no black and white for him as a character. There is only a million shades of gray. This is an aspect, I believe, is what those who are willing to see, can appreciate. For those who are looking for something to either find pleasure in, lose themselves in, forget or use to numb themselves, it would be an uncomfortable scenario. There is too much life in Thane and that can be uncomfortable.

Thoughts?

This x1000^9.

[Pwnisher]

Thane must be cured in ME3. If Shepard can be brought back to life, then Thane can certainly be cured.

[JECWSU]

Gnas wrote...

Tentura wrote...
Just a little thought: I have heard several people lately describe Thane's character as too overloaded with downers and drama. Namely, his dead wife, estranged son, *and* terminal illness. How do you feel about this? Do you think it's too much, or do you like it as it is? Do you think he'd be more believable/relatable without one of the three? (Don't just say disease because you want him better!!) Lots of people say his illness defines him as a character - do you feel that is true or do you think the other two have more impact on him?

Disclaimer: I am about to make some statements that I know I will mostly likely suffer consequences for uttering but the statements reflect my opinions and beliefs.

Having said that:

I believe that those who make the statement that his illness defines him as a character do not have the life experiences to truly understand the impact of a terminal illness on an individual. Thane in his journey, is propagating the four necessities all humans go through when facing the end of their life: Forgive me, I forgive you, I love you and good bye. Should Thane die in ME3, its his life journey and how he lived until the moment of death. Thane isn't dead, he's alive until the moment of his death.

I also come from the perspective that many who see Thane as overloaded with downers and drama also do not have the life experience to appreciate complex characters who have been written with a full life full of joy, sorrow, fear, rage, shame and guilt. Thane runs the gamete of a life lived. His life experiences define him as a character. His loss of Irikah, the estrangement from Kolyat as well as his knowledge of his own mortality.

Thane is an example of a life lived and lived almost fearlessly. He makes no apologies for his actions, he accepts the responsiblity of his life choices yet he is in search of redemption and atonement. His spirituality reflects his internal strife to understand and reconcile his actions with the outcomes and consequences of those actions.

Thane is a mature character. There is no black and white for him as a character. There is only a million shades of gray. This is an aspect, I believe, is what those who are willing to see, can appreciate. For those who are looking for something to either find pleasure in, lose themselves in, forget or use to numb themselves, it would be an uncomfortable scenario. There is too much life in Thane and that can be uncomfortable.

Thoughts?

I completely agree with everything you said.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Wow! Beautiful image! I don't know where it's from, though. It looks edited on.