16751 réponses à ce sujet

[JECW]

mnomaha wrote...

It's right up there with Jacob telling Shep that the Normandy was her only real love. Um, really? And while mine was not Jacob, I bloody guarantee you it was Thane. Did the same newb write Jacob?

Maybe.
I didn't do Jacob's romance either, but I thought that was so silly. I think the writer got that line from a soap opera.

I don't know who Jacob"s writer was, but it's as if none of these new writers ever played ME2 or ME1.

Modifié par JECW, 08 février 2013 - 12:54 .

[disc0nnect7]

Anyone who had some spare time that day probably wrote Jacob

It was almost as if they regretted making Jacob a LI at all, after they saw that he didn't have too many mancers they just threw him out. That's just wrong. It doesn't matter if not many people romanced him-SOME people did and BW let them down just like they did us. I doubt they thought ahead to make him a cheater in ME3, unless they're going to say he was destined to cheat all along like Thane was always going to die.

[coldwetn0se]

If you make a character a legitimate Paramour, you honor that! Jacob was...Thane was. I don't give two wooden nickels if he was popular, or Thane was AS popular as Kaidan or Garrus, take responsibility for YOUR creations, and do right by them and the paying customers who chose them.

blahhhh! blech!

[Sable Rhapsody]

disc0nnect7 wrote...
That's just wrong. It doesn't matter if not many people romanced him-SOME people did and BW let them down just like they did us.

Very rarely, you do get characters who are awful enough (ie: Jar-Jar Binks) where it's better for the creators to disavow the character entirely.  But Jacob was nowhere near that bad (just kinda bland), and Thane certainly wasn't.

I have some gripes with GRRM's writing, but he gets points for the depth of his characters.  It doesn't matter if Tyrion is more popular than Cersei or Theon.  They all get a good share of character development, and there's something to like in each character.  THAT is how character writing should be handled.  Even if you don't have hundreds of pages of words, you can do more concise character development in a video game and still have it be good.  (Case in point: Jack between ME2 and ME3).

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 08 février 2013 - 07:56 .

[mnomaha]

Um...I rather liked Jar-Jar. He amuses me.

And bland is not bad (agreeing with you btw) so they really have no excuse. Then again, an excuse would require 1) an admission and 2) open communication. douchebags.

[mythlover20]

I agree with all of you. It's not just about treating your customers with respect, or about treating the characters with respect. It's just good bloody writing. ME3 insults me more as a writer than it did as a player, and given that I still haven't crying over Thane or WTF-ing about the ending and all the other little bull**** bits in this game that is REALLY saying something. Very little about ME3 was good writing though. It's as if no one had actually written anything before and forgot all the basic rules of cohesion and character development.

Although I do agree with Sable. Jack felt like she had done a lot of growing up between the two, but it felt natural to me. She had been the lost young woman at the start of ME2, grew to be a much more mature young woman by the end of ME2, had started to trust others, and her rage, while still there and very much valid, had been muted or at least channelled, especially for a romance. Cue ME3 and she had been put in a position of responsibility, had others younger and weaker than her depend on her. She had matured and grown into a much more confident and secure individual as a result, but she was still the same Jack. Even her reasons not to rejoin the Normandy (being that she didn't feel she could abandon her charges) felt natural, given the way she put it. Though I really do with they didn't censor her telling Joker to **** off. That was a little sad. Still think she should have more content, like everyone (except Kaidan and Liara and Garrus), but what she did get was good. The progression natural and respectful and utterly believable.

But Jacob and Thane... while I can see that happening with Jacob, not the way they presented it. A drunken interlude, maybe, and then Jacob deciding to try to help raise the child. From what I got of his character in ME2 not abandoning the child and the mother would totally be in his character,. but the way they PRESENTED that? Uh, no.

Thane... gah. Romance content ****. Friend content ****. Renegade rival content ****. The only way that progression could be natural is if the player didn't interact with Thane at all outside his Recruitment and Loyalty missions.

Anyway: the reason I popped in this night. Just have a quick question for you guys. I was wondering what impressions you got from Thane's first letter in ME3. The one requesting a meeting at Huerta. I know what I got from it: selfish, uncaring, making excuses, and the writing style being off, unnecessarily reminding people of his job and disease, then for the romance content also slightly desperate tone (in the first paragraph where he's making the excuses for not seeing her) and especially uncaring with the lack of the Siha and other references to the romance content (this should have been our first clue, I think), I'm just wondering if other people got this, or interpreted it in an entirely different way.

[Sable Rhapsody]

mnomaha wrote...
Um...I rather liked Jar-Jar. He amuses me.

I'm a little flabbergasted; you're probably the first person I've ever heard express a sentiment other than "KILL JAR-JAR FOREVER!!!!"  Or maybe I've just spent too much time in the Star Wars fandom; BSN is to Star Wars what an earthworm is to a rattlesnake 

mythlover20 wrote...
Anyway: the reason I popped in this night. Just have a quick question for you guys. I was wondering what impressions you got from Thane's first letter in ME3. The one requesting a meeting at Huerta. I know what I got from it: selfish, uncaring, making excuses, and the writing style being off, unnecessarily reminding people of his job and disease, then for the romance content also slightly desperate tone (in the first paragraph where he's making the excuses for not seeing her) and especially uncaring with the lack of the Siha and other references to the romance content (this should have been our first clue, I think), I'm just wondering if other people got this, or interpreted it in an entirely different way.

It didn't bother me in my first playthrough of ME3, because my FemShep and Thane were never more than colleagues.  The more distant and impersonal tone of the message suited their relationship.  Also because I naively thought it'd be substantially different if you romanced him--silly me <_<  It DID bother me on my second playthrough; my ManShep who'd actually done Thane's LM and been his awesome sniper bro for over half of ME2 got the exact same message.  

mythlover20 wrote...
Very little about ME3 was good writing though. It's as if no one had actually written anything before and forgot all the basic rules of cohesion and character development.

IMO the less Shepard there was in a conversation, the better it was.  Which is kind of f***ed up.  For example, I loved pretty much all of the ambient dialogues and banters.  The stuff on Rannoch and Tuchanka, which tended to put the focus on characters other than Shep, was also pretty awesome.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 08 février 2013 - 11:29 .

[mythlover20]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

mnomaha wrote...
Um...I rather liked Jar-Jar. He amuses me.

I'm a little flabbergasted; you're probably the first person I've ever heard express a sentiment other than "KILL JAR-JAR FOREVER!!!!"  Or maybe I've just spent too much time in the Star Wars fandom; BSN is to Star Wars what an earthworm is to a rattlesnake 

mythlover20 wrote...
Anyway: the reason I popped in this night. Just have a quick question for you guys. I was wondering what impressions you got from Thane's first letter in ME3. The one requesting a meeting at Huerta. I know what I got from it: selfish, uncaring, making excuses, and the writing style being off, unnecessarily reminding people of his job and disease, then for the romance content also slightly desperate tone (in the first paragraph where he's making the excuses for not seeing her) and especially uncaring with the lack of the Siha and other references to the romance content (this should have been our first clue, I think), I'm just wondering if other people got this, or interpreted it in an entirely different way.

It didn't bother me in my first playthrough of ME3, because my FemShep and Thane were never more than colleagues.  The more distant and impersonal tone of the message suited their relationship.  Also because I naively thought it'd be substantially different if you romanced him--silly me <_<  It DID bother me on my second playthrough; my ManShep who'd actually done Thane's LM and been his awesome sniper bro for over half of ME2 got the exact same message.  

mythlover20 wrote...
Very little about ME3 was good writing though. It's as if no one had actually written anything before and forgot all the basic rules of cohesion and character development.

IMO the less Shepard there was in a conversation, the better it was.  Which is kind of f***ed up.  For example, I loved pretty much all of the ambient dialogues and banters.  The stuff on Rannoch and Tuchanka, which tended to put the focus on characters other than Shep, was also pretty awesome.

Yeah, the less Shep the better, which for a game like this is a cardinal sin. I do have to disagree with you though about Rannoch and tuchanka. Don't get me wrong, the concept was good, especially the character growth of Mordin throughout the mission, but so much was wrong imo, like Tali committing suicide, and especially the disregard of established lore. In fact almost entirely the established lore. Both the genophage and quarian adaption to the homeworld were supposed to take decades, if not centuries, and they both happen just like that *virtual finger snap for emphasis.... which I guess didn't work. D'oh!*

I even have a small problem with Garrus's recruitment. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember of my Margurite pt, and my Garrusmance pt, Garrus just seems to abandon his troops on the moon. I think ME2 established pretty well that he is a loyal individual: he went to Omega and became a vigilante in an attempt to remain loyal to Shepard's memory, and he remained loyal to his men with his mission to gain vengence/retribution/justice for his men after they were slaughtered. But in his recruitment he just joins up with Shepard, forgetting his responsibilities to the men remaining. I know we can easily headcanon that he knew that he could do more good on the Normandy, and I fully agree with it, but there is no in-game dialogue to establish it. Which is a shame, because a simple statement from Victus (You understand the larger situation better than me, Garrus. You're coming.) would have cleared that up instantly. And it would only take... what? three seconds?... to say. It could be there but I didn't get it in my pts.

And thank you for answering my question, and for clarifying the relationship between your Sheps and Thane. I thought it would be more acceptable for a pair who DIDN"T have a close relationship, but I'm makign some pretty big assumptions with this essay and getting confirmation/clarification/corrections always helps.

Oh, and guess what? I just typed it up so I can have a reference when writing away from the computer, and it's not just bad in-content! The grammar in it is absolutely crap too! And it's not just a matter of the differences between Canadian and Australian grammar, either. Oh no! There are FAR too many commas in this thing.

Dammit I'm gonna open up a document and scribble all over the corrections, just to show you. brb.

EDIT: Actually, I take that back. There's only one additional comma that shouldn't be there. But damm, it's still so OFF (character wise) it's making me see things that aren't there!!!

Hey, Hepler?! Thane didn't run off at the mouth like that! K.I.S.S., dude. K.I.S.S.!!!

Modifié par mythlover20, 08 février 2013 - 12:54 .

[mythlover20]

Wait... why have we stopped posting pics top? Why?

This must be rectified...

Now...


My dream team by karniz.

Thane needs some luvin'! ^ ^

[JECW]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

disc0nnect7 wrote...
That's just wrong. It doesn't matter if not many people romanced him-SOME people did and BW let them down just like they did us.

Very rarely, you do get characters who are awful enough (ie: Jar-Jar Binks) where it's better for the creators to disavow the character entirely.  But Jacob was nowhere near that bad (just kinda bland), and Thane certainly wasn't.

I have some gripes with GRRM's writing, but he gets points for the depth of his characters.  It doesn't matter if Tyrion is more popular than Cersei or Theon.  They all get a good share of character development, and there's something to like in each character.  THAT is how character writing should be handled.  Even if you don't have hundreds of pages of words, you can do more concise character development in a video game and still have it be good.  (Case in point: Jack between ME2 and ME3).

Jar-Jar Binks had to be one of the worst characters. The first Star Wars character I actually couldn't stand.

I agree. It should have never come down to popularity. This is a video game not some stupid soap opera where everything is based on who's the most popular. They should have all recieved good character development.
Instead some got wonderful treatment while characters like Thane and Jacob got nothing. These are characters they created and they shouldn't have been tossed aside.

[mnomaha]

This from a dear friend of mine:

The writer for Jacob (in ME2 only) was Lukas Kristjanson. An old writer, who's been there since Baldur's Gate. He's also written characters such as Joker in ME1 & 2 (not 3 as I believe it is because he has been moved to the DA team), Kaidan (Alongside Chris L'Etoile & Drew Karpyshyn in ME1), Aveline, Grunt (he shared this character with Brian Kindregan who works for Blizzard now). And then there is also Carver of DA2 as well. That's all I can think of!

Very interesting...

Jar-Jar....it's kind of like a pug is so ugly that it's cute. I cringed the first time and giggled the next. I never claimed to be normal.

[giftfish]

Yeah, changing writers is a big problem when you are going to have the same characters appear in multiple games. They really should treat it a bit like movies and get the writers under contract for all 3 games at the get go.

I mean, could you have imagined Harry Potter or LOTR swap actors half way through?

[Sable Rhapsody]

mnomaha wrote...
The writer for Jacob (in ME2 only) was Lukas Kristjanson. An old writer, who's been there since Baldur's Gate. He's also written characters such as Joker in ME1 & 2 (not 3 as I believe it is because he has been moved to the DA team), Kaidan (Alongside Chris L'Etoile & Drew Karpyshyn in ME1), Aveline, Grunt (he shared this character with Brian Kindregan who works for Blizzard now). And then there is also Carver of DA2 as well. That's all I can think of!

I generally love Lukas's work.  Carver is the best cranky little brother a mage could ask for.  Jacob was eh, but he also grew on me.

mythlover20 wrote...

Yeah, the less Shep the better, which for a game like this is a cardinal sin. I do have to disagree with you though about Rannoch and tuchanka. Don't get me wrong, the concept was good, especially the character growth of Mordin throughout the mission, but so much was wrong imo, like Tali committing suicide, and especially the disregard of established lore. In fact almost entirely the established lore. Both the genophage and quarian adaption to the homeworld were supposed to take decades, if not centuries, and they both happen just like that *virtual finger snap for emphasis.... which I guess didn't work. D'oh!*

Generally, ME has been pretty light on the "science" aspect of sci-fi since ME2.  It's more akin to Star Wars's space magic than, say, Isaac Asimov's hard sci-fi.  And I'm ok with that as long as it's not outlandish.  For me, the handwaved explanations for the speed of the genophage cure (Shroud) and the quarians' rapid adaptations (geth aid) were good enough, even if they don't make a lot of scientific sense.  But I will agree that the Rannoch arc pretty much mangled the game's established AI lore.  It didn't bug me too much the first time since I still had lots of momentum getting through the game, but it bothers me more the more I think about it.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 08 février 2013 - 10:39 .

[coldwetn0se]

mnomaha wrote...

This from a dear friend of mine:

The writer for Jacob (in ME2 only) was Lukas Kristjanson. An old writer, who's been there since Baldur's Gate. He's also written characters such as Joker in ME1 & 2 (not 3 as I believe it is because he has been moved to the DA team), Kaidan (Alongside Chris L'Etoile & Drew Karpyshyn in ME1), Aveline, Grunt (he shared this character with Brian Kindregan who works for Blizzard now). And then there is also Carver of DA2 as well. That's all I can think of!

Very interesting...

Jar-Jar....it's kind of like a pug is so ugly that it's cute. I cringed the first time and giggled the next. I never claimed to be normal.

ahem........Oscar might have something to say about that statement.....IT'S ON!

[JECW]

mnomaha wrote...

This from a dear friend of mine:

The writer for Jacob (in ME2 only) was Lukas Kristjanson. An old writer, who's been there since Baldur's Gate. He's also written characters such as Joker in ME1 & 2 (not 3 as I believe it is because he has been moved to the DA team), Kaidan (Alongside Chris L'Etoile & Drew Karpyshyn in ME1), Aveline, Grunt (he shared this character with Brian Kindregan who works for Blizzard now). And then there is also Carver of DA2 as well. That's all I can think of!

Very interesting...

Jar-Jar....it's kind of like a pug is so ugly that it's cute. I cringed the first time and giggled the next. I never claimed to be normal.

It looks like most of the characters from ME2 suffered from a different writer. I know Thane did.

Pugs are ugly, but not annoying. Jar Jar annoyed me the entire movie.
Of course I hated the last three star wars movies anyway.

[mnomaha]

And what gets me about the whole Quarian thing is that is Leviathan mentioned that example in his explanation of things. I can't remember the exact wording, something about synthetics uploading into something that reminds me of the Quarian thing. So now...is this foreshadowing history repeating itself?

And okay Coldi...Oscar is rather cute in a non-ugly kind of way.

[coldwetn0se]

Good god, people!  How on Earth could you think pugs are ugly?!?!?!?!

Take your medicine like good little Drellickers, and endure the pug spammage!




(these pics have been Thane approved)

[Belisarius25]

I think Jacob might also have been screwed by being introduced at the same time Garrus became a LI (like Jack sort of was by having Miranda AND Tali)...the developers might have figured the populations of players who romanced those characters were too small to spend that much time on. /cynical thought

Also, I saw on the romance blog that you need more screenshots so I'll send some of my Shep and Diana Allers ASAP

[coldwetn0se]

Belisarius25 wrote...

I think Jacob might also have been screwed by being introduced at the same time Garrus became a LI (like Jack sort of was by having Miranda AND Tali)...the developers might have figured the populations of players who romanced those characters were too small to spend that much time on. /cynical thought

Also, I saw on the romance blog that you need more screenshots so I'll send some of my Shep and Diana Allers ASAP

  I see what you did thar!!


The writer for Jacob, has actually written a few of my favorites (Aveline and Carver chiefly among them).  I just don't find any justifiable reason to have Jacob cheat and leave Shepard.  Not to repeat myself but: Jacob in relationship with Shepard; he merely works with Brynn. Not in a relationship with Shepard; he's busy getting jiggy with Brynn.  If relationship is intact and reconfirmed (just like Miranda and Jack), you get some romance content and pop the Paramour cheevo.  Sorry, but this is how I will always believe they should have handled Jacob.....and I didn't even romance him. (still liked him, but Fem!Shep crushin' on Jacob "scaowed" me......*shiver*) (btw thats "scared" for anyone who doesn't speak little kid)

And as for Thane......duh! Vocal Thanemancer here; wash-rinse-repeat everything I have ever said on this thread and the old (irony) me3 C&R Thane thread.

[JECW]

There is no justifiable reason.
They were lazy, and they thought because Jacob wasn't very popular that it would be ok.

Same thing with Thane they just didn't care.

[DineBoo]

Jacob was inexcusable just because it was borderline racial stereotyping at the bare minimum. With how black men is portrayed in the US and abroad, did they really have to have him cheat AND get a another woman pregnant? And have that woman get catty with Shep? As a black woman this gets extreme side eye from me. I'm close to taking offense.

Was there no person of color the writer they could run this storyline by? Someone to say, "Hey! This might be pandering to stereotypes?"

If they had to break up Jacob and Shep, why no go the route of Jacob saying "Shep, I don't want you to worry about me while the universe is going to hell. I think it's best we part ways for now so you can concentrate on the reapers. I'll stay behind make sure these scientists and the Crucible is protected and you have something to come home to. And if we make it okay in the end, I'll find you again."

Something like that. Simple! It says in line with Jacob's character and gives something other than a slap in the face to Jacob's fans.

Or they could have done a modified Jack scenario. Since everything went to Liara anyway, this wouldn't take that much resources and at least those who did romance Jacob got the romance achievement.

[Sable Rhapsody]

coldwetn0se wrote...
Good god, people!  How on Earth could you think pugs are ugly?!?!?!?!

Hey, I think animals from jumping spiders to hairless cats are cute.  I am extremely weird.

DineBoo wrote...
Or they could have done a modified Jack scenario. Since everything went to Liara anyway, this wouldn't take that much resources and at least those who did romance Jacob got the romance achievement.

Yeah, it wouldn't have cost them anything more in terms of resources to make Jacob and Thane viable LIs.  It's not an issue of word budget; you could've use the exact same word budget to construct better dialogue.  It's not an issue of VA or animation; presumably you use the same amount of resources (for VA and animators) for good dialogue as you do for bad.  Those three things are usually the resource sucks of video games nowadays.

It comes down to writing quality.  You can do a lot with less screentime if the writing is good.  For example, Odahviing is one of my favorite Skyrim characters, and he has exactly two conversations with the Dragonborn, one of which is him monologuing.  It's unrealistic to expect every character to get a lot of game time, but at least make what time they have quality.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 février 2013 - 08:29 .

[giftfish]

@Squee --

I'm not quite sure I understand your response to DineBoo's post.

So, are you saying that you do or don't consider what BW did to Jacob as conforming to racist stereotypes?

I don't think that DineBoo was saying that there was any actual type of link between "personality" and race and I doubt there's anyone here that would think so. The context of your comment is just a bit confusing to me.

[DineBoo]

@squeeg" Giftfish is right. I know there's no connection between race and cheating. People will cheat when they want to cheat.

But for black/African American men, that is an unfortunate stereotype and trope. In media, black men are portrayed as "rolling stones" (heh, showing my age a bit here) that never stay with a woman long, show no loyalty to the woman they're with and always looking elsewhere for the next lay. They're also leaving behind tons of baby mamas.

This is the issue I take with how Jacob was portrayed. Not necessarily the cheating, which is bad enough since it's out of character for him, but everything that came with it. Jacob says to Shep "You expected me to wait?, knowing she was locked up. There was no remorse for cheating on Shep with Brynn, and Shep is expected to just to take it. And to compound the cheating, he gets Brynn pregnant.

Brynn herself is a step away from the sassy baby mama black woman stereotype herself due to her hostility to Shep. All they needed to add was finger snapping and neck rolling.

This is what offended me as a black woman. They pretty much hit on all the negative aspects the media puts out there for black men without subverting any of them.

As I said before, why did they have to do this to the only visibly black man (besides Anderson) in the game? They wouldn't have Kaidan cheat, because it wasn't in his character. This wasn't Jacob's character either, so why take it down this path?

This wasn't for realism sake. If it was, they would have had someone cheat on BroShep too. Poor Jacob fans get run off the boards because they decided to stick by him and get slapped in the face as a result.

If they really wanted to make Jacob cheat, they would have done it ways that wasn't a stereotype. Have Brynn want him, but he was committed to Shep. She gets him drunk at an optimal time to ensure she gets pregnant. Jacob is racked with guilt and doesn't contact Shep because he's too ashamed. He doesn't want to repeat what his father did and stands by Brynn mostly because the universe is going to crap.

When Shep arrives Jacob comes clean, showing remorse. Somehow it comes out Brynn got Jacob drunk. Shep can now have a paragon response of breaking up with Jacob civility, or renegade shooting/punching him. She can either be civil to Brynn or be renegade to her as well.

TLDR: This solution subverts all the negative stereotypes. It gives a reason for Jacob's cheating, and stays with his character as well. It does Brynn no favors, but I'm less invested in her as a character than Jacob.