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[IccaRa]

New page?







Now let's see how long it takes serious discussion to dissolve back into lulzay gifs, haha!



I'm curious to hear opinion over the Hanar/Drell Compact, actually. Seeing how it affected Thane so much.

[Collider]

I assume you mean where Drell are requested to help Hanar with stuff like combat. Since Drell are allowed to turn it down, I really have no problem with it in that regard. I don't particularly like that parents can give their children to the Hanar for battle or assassination though, that's over the top. It should be something that an individual decides for themselves.

[IccaRa]

Thane was given at 6 and made his first kill at 12, accepting death in the same moment. He was so specialized he had absolutely no other skills. That never even entered his training. And it was that loss that led to further loss down the road.



OTOH, if he weren't so trained, he'd never be as effective as he is now, and would have never made it on a dossier.



I think it's incredibly sad, if complicated. It's very... cultural.



I know some argue the Compact is borderline slavery though, and that the hanar effectively brainwash many drell.

[Collider]

Oh, I'm aware Thane would be different if he hadn't been an assassin. That's not the most important thing though, because we're talking about the compact itself rather Thane. I don't think his parents should have been able to give him as an assassin, as you said, that's borderline sending a child to slavery. Ideally the choice of whether to serve the Hanar should only be available to adults or at earliest teenagers.

[Lara Denton]

IccaRa wrote...

New page?
Now let's see how long it takes serious discussion to dissolve back into lulzay gifs, haha!

I'm curious to hear opinion over the Hanar/Drell Compact, actually. Seeing how it affected Thane so much.

It made sense in the beginning when the Drell probably felt like they own everything to the Hanar (and they did), but in the long run, they will probably start refusing the Compact more often. If the Drell population will start to recover and truly adapt to the new world and society, it will come only to those who don't have another way of raising their children to give them to the Compact. It's not like we know much about their culture so this is more a human reaction that I'm applying here.

[IccaRa]

Aye, but then he wouldn't be as good as he is now. I think it's vile, in a way, stripping someone of their childhood and any chance at a "normal" life... but if you really needed to train the best, wouldn't you start when they're very young? I don't know. I waffle back and forth on this. I'm not sure how I feel about it.



I imagine some Compacts run smooth, and many drell lead productive lives, and cases like Thane may be few and far between by comparison. But you have to wonder if this "honor" angle is abused.

[Collider]

IccaRa wrote...
Aye, but then he wouldn't be as good as he is now. I think it's vile, in a way, stripping someone of their childhood and any chance at a "normal" life... but if you really needed to train the best, wouldn't you start when they're very young? I don't know. I waffle back and forth on this. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Although Thane is pretty cool, one person can't justify the entire compact. It's really horrible that you can send your child to have an abnormal life killing people. Either way, Thane exists, he is as he is, but I'd prefer the Hanar disallow in the future that parents give away their children like that. I can accept them giving their children to other families or orphanages or something of that sort if they can't raise them, but putting them to war so early I think is not right.

I imagine some Compacts run smooth, and many drell lead productive lives, and cases like Thane may be few and far between by comparison. But you have to wonder if this "honor" angle is abused.

I get the impression that refusing to serve may be seen as dishonorable. It's most important that it's possible to do that as an adult though.

[RShara]

I'm nearly incoherent here, but what about dancers, and althletes in modern times? They train pretty much as soon as they can walk to be the best that they can.

[Collider]

RShara wrote...
I'm nearly incoherent here, but what about dancers, and althletes in modern times? They train pretty much as soon as they can walk to be the best that they can.

But the parents are giving them for assassination. Playing football is not quite as dangerous nor touchy as killing people =p For some killing another person can mess with your mind, many people come out of war mentally unstable. Thane made his first kill as 12 and although it did not change him negatively it seems, I can see other Drell of that age not quite reacting to it quite well.

[Lara Denton]

Thane rejects the slavery angle, he says something like "don't insult me, Shepard", but he was trained all his life to believe that it isn't. He was never given a chance to choose what path to follow. He was to be an assassin and that's that.

Even if later he was allowed to take a break to raise a family, it was possible because the Hanar allowed it, not because he just chose so. That sounds to be like getting a pass from the masters...

RShara wrote...

I'm nearly incoherent here, but what about dancers, and althletes in modern times? They train pretty much as soon as they can walk to be the best that they can.

It's different because the child can always stop going to the classes and dedicate his/her time to study the stars if so desires. That is assuming that the parents just try to open a path for their child with the dancing classes and not forcing one.

Modifié par laradenton, 12 avril 2010 - 07:47 .

[Lara Denton]

Collider wrote...

RShara wrote...
I'm nearly incoherent here, but what about dancers, and althletes in modern times? They train pretty much as soon as they can walk to be the best that they can.

But the parents are giving them for assassination. Playing football is not quite as dangerous nor touchy as killing people =p For some killing another person can mess with your mind, many people come out of war mentally unstable. Thane made his first kill as 12 and although it did not change him negatively it seems, I can see other Drell of that age not quite reacting to it quite well.

This also. Just looking for some of the human morals here, which in the ME world are not universal. So that's the perspective I'm looking at it.

Modifié par laradenton, 12 avril 2010 - 07:45 .

[kaimanaMM]

I go back and forth about the Compact. Thane says that anyone can refuse to serve, but few do because it is considered an honor. The Hanar didn't have to rescue the Drell, but they did. How do you repay an act such as that? What wouldn't seem trite? We assume it was the Hanar who came up with the Compact, but I'd be more inclined to think it was the Drell as a way to somehow give back to those who saved them. They are a very spiritual people and it's a very spiritual idea to give what you get.

However, we don't know the specifics of the Compact. Are only children given over to the Hanar to train? Does the Compact only apply to special training for assassins, spies, etc. or does it apply to more mundane positions like tax collectors or vacuum salesmen? What happens to those who wash out of training? Are the families who give children to the Hanar compensated in some way? Obviously those who are given to the Compact are treated fairly and taken care of or I think Thane would have said something about that. He says the Hanar valued him as both a resource and a person, he says they allowed him to leave their service and raise a family.  He speaks of them with the utmost respect.

On one hand, I feel it's a horrible thing to take a child's 'innocence' away. But on the other, Thane is the master assassin he is because he was trained from such a young age. It would be incredibly shortsighted to think that other races of the galaxy don't do the same thing. I'd wager Asari Commandos are trained from childhood as well.

Another thing to consider is that the Drell believe in a spirit separate from their physical body. Thane says that the Hanar trained his body and repeats many times that his body was the tool used to kill, his soul was separate from the action. If you believe that the physical body is nothing more than a vessel for the soul (as many religions do), then your body can be considered a commodity as what's inside - your soul - can never be touched.

[epoch_]

IccaRa wrote...

New page?



Now let's see how long it takes serious discussion to dissolve back into lulzay gifs, haha!

I'm curious to hear opinion over the Hanar/Drell Compact, actually. Seeing how it affected Thane so much.

That is an enormous gif, omg.

[iNixiRir]

laradenton wrote...
iNixiRir: I've seen the image, so I'm just wondering, what about being posted on NSAS?

I just uploaded it there.
Yeah for me!

[spamhead80]

You certainly never get confirmation on this, but I'm wondering if most drell aren't given to the compact at an early age and then sent through some sort of sorting process (psychological profiling/aptitude testing/what have you). I'd like to think that the hanar at least attempt to slot the drell into positions that suit them.



As for the compact itself, that's a hard one to wrap your mind around. You can equate it to being a good citizen in a way, but taking drell from such an early age is somewhat questionable. Then again, you can't really impose human morality on an alien species. I'm somewhat biased because I like the hanar and can't imagine them using the drell or treating them as inferiors.

[epoch_]

I'm having issues choosing between garrus and thane for my main femshep. Thane thread, please give me positives points for thane.



Notice, I didn't say negatives about Garrus. Thank you for the help

[RShara]

We don't have a lot of details on the Compact, so much of this is speculation.



We know that the hanar train children (drell or not?) in specific tasks that they aren't able to accomplish. At least one of these is assassination, or weapons training. There may be others.

We know that either parents or child can refuse the Compact. Few do.



We don't know if the children are chosen by the hanar, or by their parents, or some other system.



We know that drell consider bodies and souls very separate, and that a body can do something that has no effect on the soul, and vice versa.



I personally read into this that certain children are selected by aptitude for certain specialized training. I am sure that the hanar, or at least the parents (since this doesn't seem completely UNcommon) realize what this will mean to the child.



I can only hope that they explain things to the child as well as they are able. Presumably, even a young child with such potential would be able to grasp some of the situation, and make...if not an informed decision, then at least some understanding of the way his/her life will be.



Speaking with Thane about his life, he still considers it an honor to have served the hanar, and feels no guilt or remorse over any of his contracts, except for those that he took out of his own decision, and the impact of his life on his family. He doesn't really speak as if he were brainwashed, or blindly devoted to the hanar, more like he holds them in high respect, while still realizing their flaws.



Our most formative years are before the age of 10, and the earlier the better, so waiting until adolescence before beginning training would severely hamper effectiveness.



The example I have in mind is ballet dancing. Ballet dancers pretty much have to start around age 4-6. The training and hours are brutal, and you don't know pain unless you are a dancer. You are *expected* to break ankles, bones, etc. You are *expected* to have bleeding open sores and blisters on your feet while you dance and smile



tl;dr: Without the intense early training, he wouldn't be the best in the galaxy. I think he would have been smart enough even at 6 to know that he was going to be killing people for a living. I can only look on in awe at the fortitude and ability and strength of will that he demonstrates through his life.



Whew!

[spamhead80]

Positives about Thane? Okay, here goes (short list, I'm sure): Honest, thoughtful (he actually asks Shep how she's feeling... what the heck is that?), intelligent, introspective, spiritual, emotionally stable, supportive, bad*ss, humanoid (from the physical relationship end it's somewhat of a selling point), eidetic memory, nice lips, tons of other stuff that I'm forgetting.

[Lara Denton]

epoch_ wrote...
I'm having issues choosing between garrus and thane for my main femshep. Thane thread, please give me positives points for thane.
Notice, I didn't say negatives about Garrus. Thank you for the help

There are some very talented girls around here that could certainly describe Thane and why he is great in very convincing ways if they choose to play this game. But I am not one of them. All I can think now is... well.. does your female Shepard like kisses? Kiss or be kissed? He's romance is emotionally engaging, he's mysterious and has an amazing body.

Oh well... If I would have a way with words, you'd be kissing the screen right now.

[Pacifien]

I wonder what Thane's childhood must have been like. Was he trained with other children? Was it sombre, devoid of any of the delights of getting to behave as a child? Did he ever get to see his family? Is his insistence about the separation of body and soul truly a drell trait or one that was drilled into him for the very start of his training?

I also wonder what might have changed once he was with Irikah. Did he start to interact with the world around him more? Was it a smooth relationship or did his job cast an unspoken darkness over everything? Did she help him discover humor? Was he a proud father?

And finally, I wonder if the Thane we meet is much changed from who he was when he was when he took assassination jobs quite readily. Are we seeing a repentant man, brought down by the realization of the effects of his life's work? Was he cocky about it once?

[epoch_]

Good start. I made a post in the garrus thread asking for positives about him. I'll see what both of you guys have to say and decide based on that later today I think.



Garrus is my mainsheps bro, so it feels a bit weird to romance him on my femshep. Despite how bad ass he is. I loved how thane has an absolute ton of dialogue.

[ebidebby]

Late to the game, but, errr, dancing? Did I miss something? It's awesome.

[epoch_]

ebidebby wrote...

Late to the game, but, errr, dancing? Did I miss something? It's awesome.

Its a mod.

[RShara]

Thane has so many good points, it's hard to decide on them.
Intelligent-eidetic memory
Understanding-actually asks how Shep is, reads philosophy
Muscular-Have you seen his arms and legs and chest? Wow.
Speech-Deep, resonant voice, precise speech, poetic words
Appearance-striking coloration, just humanoid enough to be familiar, but different enough to be exotic. No sharp pointy bits that could skewer you by accident
Maturity-Not a young or insecure person. He knows who he is, his relationship is more like equals then a mentor-student or friend-friend
Skills-Can take out a man at 100m with a sniper rifle, or snap necks with his bare hands. He can take out roomfuls of guards with guns and hands.

Oral Contact can cause Hallucinations.

There are more, but hey

Modifié par RShara, 12 avril 2010 - 05:13 .

[Lara Denton]

ebidebby wrote...

Late to the game, but, errr, dancing? Did I miss something? It's awesome.

One of the things I was expecting out of ME2 was the option to dance with the LI. Disappointing that they didn't implement it.

About the Hanar and the Compact: there is so little that we know and soooo many questions that can arise.

RShara wrote...
Speaking with Thane about his life, he still considers it an honor to have served the hanar, and feels no guilt or remorse over any of his contracts, except for those that he took out of his own decision, and the impact of his life on his family. He doesn't really speak as if he were brainwashed, or blindly devoted to the hanar, more like he holds them in high respect, while still realizing their flaws.

That's one of the things that is at odds with my near slavery theory. He clearly is not brainwashed. Or doesn't seem to be.

Pacifien wrote...

I wonder what Thane's childhood must have been like. Was he trained with other children? Was it sombre,
devoid of any of the delights of getting to behave as a child? Did he ever get to see his family? Is his insistence about the separation of body and soul truly a drell trait or one that was drilled into him for the very start of his training?
I also wonder what might have changed once he was with Irikah. Did he start to interact with the world around
him more? Was it a smooth relationship or did his job cast an unspoken darkness over everything? Did she help him discover humor? Was he a proud father? And finally, I wonder if the Thane we meet is much changed from who he was when he was when he took assassination jobs quite readily. Are we seeing a repentant man, brought down by the realization of the effects of his life's work? Was he cocky about it once?

I'd really like some answers here. He seems capable of leading a "regular" life. It's probably related to his believes of separated body and soul...

Modifié par laradenton, 12 avril 2010 - 05:13 .