16751 réponses à ce sujet

[kaimanaMM]

First off, my brain is broken and it's been a long day, be gentle on any incoherance.

Yes, he's out to right wrongs and killing Nassana can be seen as doing the galaxy a favor, but it's still taking a life and with Thane being disconnected, that life taken reflects on his soul as well as the lives of the innocents he failed to save (even though he probably couldn't save some of them if he tried). After he'd killed the Batarians that had killed his wife, he wanted to atone for those deaths, the only ones he feels guilty over as he made the conscious choice to hunt them down and make their deaths horrible and painful. But how many rights make up for the one wrong? Would Thane have found redemption on his own or would he have continued to just exist, pushing himself until the day he died trying to make up for the responsibility he felt over Irikah's death and subsequently killing her murderers?

Thane says, "Humans often believe in a soul distinct from the body. A spirit responsible for moral reasoning that lives on after the body's death. Our belief is just a bit more literal. Drell minds are different from humans. We see our body as a vessel and accept that is it not always under our control."

I interpret that as Thane saying Drell believe their soul is who they truly are and their body is merely the physical embodiment of that true being. To the Drell (not just Thane), not every action their body performs is the result of conscious choice. For those actions that are, responsibility is taken.

Thane says to Shepard, "You'd be guilty because you chose to shoot me. If my reflexes caused me to draw and fire when I saw your gun come up, I'd be innocent."

It's a fine line of distinction. He's saying Shepard made the choice to draw a gun, aim it and pull the trigger. That action as a result of the choice reflects on both body and soul as it was a conscious decision. Thane drawing his own gun and firing on Shepard is the reaction of his reflexes, an action of his physical body and thus, according to Drell beliefs, he is innocent.

Perhaps my comparison to human religion wasn't the best angle, I admit thinking about it now you can see slight elements of Drell religion, but they are very different.

Modifié par kaimanaMM, 14 avril 2010 - 01:57 .

[Shadow_Puppet]

I wanted to make a point in one of my last posts but I got a tad carried away lol.

Also this is a rather difficult subject for me because there are some aspects of Thane's whole body and soul belief that I am still trying to get my head around plus I haven't played the game in over a month T.T so bear with me here.
 
First of all IMO I think Thane describes his past actions i.e. the torture and murder the Batarians as being wicked could be one of two things, the first being that he personally believes his actions were wicked, because even though the Batarians murdered his wife, he still chose to consciously hunt down, torture and murder them in an act of revenge thus going on his beliefs this choice reflected upon his soul and after he had murdered them he wasn’t able to deal with the guilt that came with it – thus he felt compelled to begin righting the wrongs throughout the galaxy in order to correct this and maybe find some sort of redemption in doing so.
 
The second reason could be something to do with the Drell religion itself - I mean what actions would be considered wicked in their religion? We don’t know there isn’t much information to go on except for what Thane tells us and even that doesn’t really give a full explanation – tis actually rather frustrating. (We shall have to hope that ME3 will provide us will more info on that)
 
However I do believe, that during his years working as an assassin for the Hanar, Thane fully embraced the belief that the body is distinct from the soul and he didn’t just use it as an excuse to avoid feeling guilty – I mean he tells Shepard at one point that even after 10 years he still feels guilty over the murder of his wife’s killers and it was the only time he ever consciously decided to take life.
 
So if he can’t come to terms with his guilt after 10 years, how did he manage working as an assassin all those years before if he did not go on the belief that the body is separate from the soul? He tells Shepard that it was his employers who decided to take life by using his body as the weapon – not a decision he consciously made himself and so does not reflect upon his soul thus he did not feel guilt over any of his contracts - I mean if he felt guilty after each and every contract, then he simply wouldn’t have lasted very long as an assassin and who knows maybe the Hanar did actually encourage this belief while training him, in order to make him even more deadly as an assassin.

 Again this is all IMO based on what I’ve gathered from the game, codex and Mass Effect wiki.

Modifié par Shadow_Puppet, 14 avril 2010 - 04:10 .

[Lara Denton]

By 21stCenturyFox

Modifié par laradenton, 14 avril 2010 - 05:40 .

[Pacifien]

The Hanar are interesting in that we know so little about them, but everything we do know indicates they're a powerful force. They cause significant trouble whenever Prothean ruins are involved. They're considered the next best candidate for Council admission. They have the means to rescue hundreds of thousands of a doomed species. They can almost choke the life out of Zaeed...

Anyway, I can understand Thane's belief that the body and soul are separate when it comes to matters of reflex. Train long enough to block a punch, then odds are you'll do it on reflex the next time a fist comes at you. Thane's is probably trying to say all his years of training as an assassin, everything that is needed for assassination is a reflex to him, he doesn't even have to stop to think about how to do it.

The difference when getting the ones who killed Irikah would be Thane did stop to think about it.

I'm curious to know when Thane knew he had Keplar's Syndrome and decided to take stock of his life. He couldn't have been doing assassinations for the good of the galaxy gratis for ten years. Did he only kill those he felt the galaxy would be better off not having? Then I start thinking about Samara's comment about justice: if she kills a man, does she really want to know he's a loving father? So then where would Thane make that distinction?

I'd speculate that Thane's journey for resolution is somewhat recent and impulsive. It would seem odd he'd try to die during the Dantius mission without knowing what became of his son first. Did he assume Kolyat was doing great without him?

Considering Nassana killed her way to power, wonder if she ever hired Thane. And that's why he chose her as the target because he knew what she was like.

Okay, that's enough speculation for me.

[Lara Denton]

The separation of body and soul doesn't bother me. It is kind of a difficult concept to grasp, but it is so especially because it contrasts so much with our own believes.

So I though to lay out some reasons why he shouldn't feel guilty and why he shouldn't be held responsible for his actions any more than other characters in the game.

      * He was trained to kill by the Hanar and has killed for them. Until he started to freelance he was pretty much doing his job, a job that involved killing, but a legal job within the boundaries and laws of the society he lives in. It's never explained in the game, but killing for the Hanar implies for me doing a task for the government body of their world. Otherwise it would have been no reason for them to train him. "Assassins" like him serve a purpose there, he didn't exist because he chose to. So, named assassin or not he is more like a special agent doing his job and therefore there is no reason to feel guilty about it. Another example here would be Samara. She is more than respected for the Asari and whatever she does in their society is never considered wrong, but that doesn't apply for the others.

      * He feels remorse for the killing of those responsible for his wife's murder. This falls under the separation of body and soul concept, but there is some law involved here as well. We find out in the game that at least some of these these killings took place on the Citadel and in that space what he was doing it was considered wrong - taking the matter in his hands. From another perspective he shouldn't feel guilty at all for this. It is ME universe after all and we all know what the Batarians are capable of and I see it as a punishment for them, a punishment that otherwise they wouldn't have got.

     * When he started "cleaning" out the galaxy he only killed the bad guys. He did it on its own, but it's in similar fashion to what Garrus was doing, he had the same goals, he was trying to make the world a better place. 

In the end, the body and soul thing doesn't give him a "carte blanche", it is not implied so in the game and he is not a mindless killer. There are other reasons as well for him not to loose too much sleep over what he does.

Modifié par laradenton, 15 avril 2010 - 05:13 .

[Lara Denton]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...
It's funny that you mention the Mass Effect wiki. I read the article about Thane and whomever contributed to the article talked about Thane regretting his profession, guilt, etc...which is pretty much the opposite of what you guys interpreted.

Maybe somebody should edit it? Hint to the "writing" girls.

The reflex analogy is interesting but a little too simplistic to compare to Thane's willingness to accept contracts from the Hanar. Speaking of which, I would like to learn more about the Hanar. Drell may feel immense gratitude towards the Hanar and this probably colors their view of them. I can't recall anything in the ME universe concerning "evil" Hanar but who's to say that such don't exist, or at least those that would send highly questionable contracts to assassins like Thane?

See what I wrote in my previous post.

Pacifien wrote...
I'm curious to know when Thane knew he had Keplar's Syndrome and decided to take stock of his life. He couldn't
have been doing assassinations for the good of the galaxy gratis for ten years.

While on Omega, he has a line where he mentions that you wouldn't believe that an assassin would go hungry in a place like that, yet he did - or something like that.

Did he only kill those he felt the galaxy would be better off not having? Then I start thinking about Samara's comment about justice: if she kills a man, does she really want to know he's a loving father? So then where would Thane make that distinction?

From my understanding, the answer is yes, he only chose those that he thought did not deserve to live. As for the second part... well... I have no idea at the moment.

Modifié par laradenton, 15 avril 2010 - 05:45 .

[Lara Denton]

51ha wrote...

He feels guilty only about those that he revenged himself on. In the Dantius tower he feels guilty because he wasn't fast enough and many workers died, because Nasana was paranoid. About all other contracts he doesn' t feel guilty because he was just a weapon.

What I don't understand is why he got the disease. He says that it's because they lived on the Hanar homeworld. But was he living there. As far as I can gather he was always working. And I don't think he was much at home for the last ten years. At least in the last two years he was on Ilium.

Not on a serious note: so that the developers could have a laugh while we bite our nails waiting for him to be cured?

And because everything got so serious around here, have a hug:



By Retsnimel

Modifié par laradenton, 15 avril 2010 - 06:09 .

[Lara Denton]

51ha wrote...

I still don't think he will die. They wouldn't make him a LI. They could have handled him like Samara if they wanted him dead. You know - in another time in another life... bla bla bla. And that would also be a sad love story.

I didn't say I think he will. Just the time spent not being certain is a bit... difficult sometimes.

[kaimanaMM]

I'm also curious about the Kepral's Syndrome, besides for the obvious reasons.

From what Thane tells us, I'm guessing that he was possibly born on Kahje and his childhood / training took place there before he left.  I'd imagine the disease had a chance to develop before he became an adult.  I also wonder when he found out about his illness.  From the sound of it, it was possibly only recently, maybe within the last five or ten years? 

The Hanar interest me also.  One of the hopes I have for ME3 is that we'll get to visit Kahje and see the Hanar in their native setting and also how the Drell live.  I also wonder how the Hanar will react to finding out the Protheans were twisted and mutated and engineered into the Collectors by the Reapers.   Learning that the race that lifted the Hanar to enlightenment and taught them how to speak was taken and repurposed by the Reapers makes for a pretty hefty incentive to join Shepard's cause.

Concerning Thane's philosophy, I'm not trying to sound like it's an easy thing to accept.  What I think the writer(s) were trying to convey is that he is a remorseless killer.  He feels absolutely nothing about those he kills.  Yet, something happened that he does feel guilty about (killing the people that killed his wife) and he carries that guilt with him trying to redeem the mark it made on his soul.  He's on a self destructive path.  He won't forgive himself for making the conscious choice to seek out the Batarians that killed Irikah or for making them suffer before he killed them.  He seeks to atone for what he's done, but he'll never do enough right to make up for the wrong, especially in the time he has left.

What I like about Thane is that he is an effcient, cold-blooded killer and he makes no apologies for it.  Shepard is very much the  same.  They do what they do because it needs to be done (whether your Paragon or Renegade or somewhere in between).  The galaxy needs people like that and sometimes, though they appear to be the bad guys, they're really the good ones.

[kaimanaMM]

By The Banderlog

[Pacifien]

laradenton wrote...
While on Omega, he has a line where he mentions that you wouldn't believe that an assassin would go hungry in a place like that, yet he did - or something like that.

I took that as a reference to how faction oriented and thuggish Omega could be. Not much need for subtlety when it's a gang war. Not much need for subtlety when you want everyone to know who ordered the hit either, which seems to be a key component to letting everyone know who holds the power in Omega. If subtlety were required, probably use your own assassins, which Aria says she has.

laradenton wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Did he only kill those he felt the galaxy would be better off not having? Then I start thinking about Samara's comment about justice: if she kills a man, does she really want to know he's a loving father? So then where would Thane make that distinction?

From my understanding, the answer is yes, he only chose those that he thought did not deserve to live. As for the second part... well... I have no idea at the moment.

Come to think of it, being specific about one's targets would indicate some conscious thought on Thane's part. He's very insistent that his role as an assassin is solely as a weapon for others to use. In which case, I think Samara's comment probably rings very true for Thane, he really can't make the distinction. At some point he decided that wasn't enough, but was the turning point Irikah's death or finding out he had Keplar's Syndrome? His comments in the game lead me to think it was specifically his illness that caused him to reevaluate his life.

[Pacifien]

kaimanaMM wrote...
The Hanar interest me also.  One of the hopes I have for ME3 is that we'll get to visit Kahje and see the Hanar in their native setting and also how the Drell live.  I also wonder how the Hanar will react to finding out the Protheans were twisted and mutated and engineered into the Collectors by the Reapers.   Learning that the race that lifted the Hanar to enlightenment and taught them how to speak was taken and repurposed by the Reapers makes for a pretty hefty incentive to join Shepard's cause.

I don't know, the Hanar are a bordering on the zealous when it comes to the Enkindlers. Could take generations for them to accept any of what Shepard has learned has any truth to it, even if Shepard pulled out a powerpoint presentation to go through it step by step. That's not to say they wouldn't help with the Reapers, just that they wouldn't accept the part about what the Reapers did to the Protheans.

kaimanaMM wrote...
What I like about Thane is that he is an effcient, cold-blooded killer and he makes no apologies for it.  Shepard is very much the  same.  They do what they do because it needs to be done (whether your Paragon or Renegade or somewhere in between).  The galaxy needs people like that and sometimes, though they appear to be the bad guys, they're really the good ones.

This I absolutely agree with. He's philosophical, soft spoken, polite... and a killer. This does not lend itself to altruistic intentions.

[kaimanaMM]

Pacifien wrote...

laradenton wrote...
While on Omega, he has a line where he mentions that you wouldn't believe that an assassin would go hungry in a place like that, yet he did - or something like that.

I took that as a reference to how faction oriented and thuggish Omega could be. Not much need for subtlety when it's a gang war. Not much need for subtlety when you want everyone to know who ordered the hit either, which seems to be a key component to letting everyone know who holds the power in Omega. If subtlety were required, probably use your own assassins, which Aria says she has.

laradenton wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Did he only kill those he felt the galaxy would be better off not having? Then I start thinking about Samara's comment about justice: if she kills a man, does she really want to know he's a loving father? So then where would Thane make that distinction?

From my understanding, the answer is yes, he only chose those that he thought did not deserve to live. As for the second part... well... I have no idea at the moment.

Come to think of it, being specific about one's targets would indicate some conscious thought on Thane's part. He's very insistent that his role as an assassin is solely as a weapon for others to use. In which case, I think Samara's comment probably rings very true for Thane, he really can't make the distinction. At some point he decided that wasn't enough, but was the turning point Irikah's death or finding out he had Keplar's Syndrome? His comments in the game lead me to think it was specifically his illness that caused him to reevaluate his life.

I also took what he said on Omega as that there's very little need for stealth, finese or subtlety.  When your spot in the chain is determined by how much of your weight you can throw around and how afraid of you the guy below you is, there's not alot of need or want to keep your actions quiet. 

I think his illness was the catalyst for his change, but I feel the two events are somewhat linked.  Thane shut down after he dealt with the people who killed Irikah.  We know he gave Kolyat to relatives and he up and vanished.  We don't know if he was freelancing the entire time, but I'd be willing to bet when he learned of his illness, he began to hear the clock ticking.  He saw a finite end and wanted to atone before he went before the Maker.

[ebidebby]

Wow, you read all 82 pages? That's commendable!

[Epantiras]

Please don't let this thread die! Ehhh bad choice of words...

BTW I'd like to share this with you people! It's not *about* Thane but he does make a cameo in there

[drunken pyromaniac]

Epantiras wrote...

Please don't let this thread die! Ehhh bad choice of words...

BTW I'd like to share this with you people! It's not *about* Thane but he does make a cameo in there

I showed up a couple pages ago, I would comment more but I don't think I have anything intelligent to add. I'm not very good with words sometimes.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

^ Don't feel too bad. I did read all the responses to my original question and don't have too much to add at the moment. I thought I should mention this, however, as I don't want anyone to think that I ignored the topic I brought up last page or so. Besides, I tend to read a lot more than respond on message boards.

Thanks, I like to think I'm at least half-way intelligent (sort of) but you guys have gotten really deep into Thane! I just can't think of anything to add.

[Juliaxo]

Hi! I'm Julia and I'm new to the forums and this thread. I had to share my love of Thane so here I am. He's a great character and not just aesthetically. His backstory is really intriguing and I enjoyed learning about the relationship between the drell and the hanar. Did anyone else get that chain message about the drell with Kepral's syndrome who was cured by embracing the light of the Enkindlers (or something like that..)? I know that was just a joke email but I really hope that there's a way to cure Thane in ME3. Why go through so much trouble to create such a great new character and make him a love interest on top of that if the situation is hopeless? Thane even acknowledges at some point that Shepard has built a career on accomplishing the impossible. We know that with the right resources the technology exists to bring someone back from the dead... there just has to be a way to cure Kepral's syndrome. :/ It would be a cop-out if there wasn't at least a choice to cure him or not.



It's so bittersweet if you choose to romance him because you're essentially "waking him up" and you renew his desire to live. His romance scene was the most emotional and touching in the game.

[Peppard]

Juliaxo wrote...
Why go through so much trouble to create such a great new character and make him a love interest on top of that if the situation is hopeless?  

We'd need to know more about BW's design process to figure that out.  I read an interview (pixelogic? some design tool company, there was  a link on the general discussion page) with the artists, and they said Thane took 1.5 months of time to design.  Now that they have a basic Drell look, I suppose some of that work could transfer to other drell characters.  I wish they'd talked about how long the average character might take to design, compared to what they went through to make Thane.  

Still, I thought that was an interesting behind-the-scene look.

[Epantiras]

Something just occured to me today as I was replyaing Thane's royalty mission.

Mouse said that Thane "always gave him chocolate" and Thane replies that "he never gave chocolate to his own son". Is it possible that Thane became looking at young Mouse as a son rather than a "tunnel rat"?