416 réponses à ce sujet

[dan107]

senojones wrote...

The decision to save the base is made before you have any knowledge of the ending. Taking that into account is meta-gaming.

Oh there was plenty of knowledge of how things would end, don't kid yourself. You are the one that chooses to ignore your morals for the sake of logic.

My morals are derived from logic. Fair enough, I would save the base even knowing full well that Cerberus will have complete control over it. Satisfied?

[senojones]

dan107 wrote...

Assuming that those suppositions are true, spending the rest of your life miserable and alone is not a sacrifice that you would make to save the human species?

"How hard is it for you to understand that applying basic logic to that
statement leads to the conclusion that the good outcome of preserving
organic life from total annihilation makes the act of killing billions
to do so morally justifyable?"

I was responding to that statement, don't try to make it look like I'm not willing to sacrafic something of myself for others, you have already shown you have no understanding of that.

Modifié par senojones, 04 février 2010 - 03:54 .

[dan107]

senojones wrote...

dan107 wrote...

Assuming that those suppositions are true, spending the rest of your life miserable and alone is not a sacrifice that you would make to save the human species?

"How hard is it for you to understand that applying basic logic to that
statement leads to the conclusion that the good outcome of preserving
organic life from total annihilation makes the act of killing billions
to do so morally justifyable?"

I was responding to that statement, don't try to make it look like I'm not willing to sacrafic something of myself for others, you have already shown you have no understanding of that.

One tangential arguement is enough for one night. I won't engage in another one.

[senojones]

My morals are derived from logic. Fair enough, I would save the base even knowing full well that Cerberus will have complete control over it. Satisfied?

I've already known that, but thanks for clarifying.

[Nayt Navare]

loboME2 wrote...

SE JN wrote...

Cerberus+Terroist.

I am a die hard patriot of the United States (well, and Canada, my mother is an immigrant), but would I work with Bin Laden to save mankind from a completely alien threat? Yes. I wouldn't betray my country or ideals while doing so, and neither does Shepard in ME2. Mankind (and in Mass Effect, the galaxy) needs to work together. But I would hardly hand over the alien tech to a terrorist (if I didn't shoot him in the head afterwards anyhow.)

An extreme example, perhaps, but it's essentially the equivalent of the Mass Effect 2 storyline, and props to Bioware for how the wrote it and handled it.

If you really wanted to tie them together, then Bin Ladin has to have reason to do what he did. example: keep the world in constant conflict so as to be ready for war with aliens. Of course, we can add that he has underlings who went too far (9/11). In such a case, I would certainly hand alien tech to him. Wouldn't you?

I don't think I would hand alien tech to anyone, at least, not to anyone currently in existence on Earth.  Seeing how our word leaders react and think...

[Mallissin]

stofsk wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

As a Paragon, you seem to have a lot of trust issues. Up until you met Legion, you didn't realize there were two factions of the Geth yet I bet you helped them even though you spent most of the first game killing them.

I killed them, actually. Nothing at all to suggest the heretics won't arrive at the same conclusion a second time.

WHAT?! They were under Reaper indocrination! The Heretic Geth only existed because the Reapers created a rounding error, which was what Legion wanted to do as well. So, if you picked the Paragon path you would have removed the Reaper code and the Geth would reunite.

Instead you halved the Geth army that might help you in the coming battle!

Definitely have trust issues.

[Mallissin]

stofsk wrote...
The Thanix cannon isn't actual reaper tech. It's turian tech that was based upon what was observed from Sovereign's 'cutting beam' weaponry, and extrapolated from there.

Uh, no. The Turians found the remains of one of Sovereign's guns and reversed engineered it. It says this in the cannon's codex. Even has the fancy voice and everything. Your argument that every time Reaper tech has been used led to indoctrination is wrong.

Proteans even reversed engineered the mass relays themselves before the Reapers wiped them out and learned about the keepers. Their risky actions after their research on a SECRET RESEARCH BASE gave us a chance in ME1 long after they sacrificed themselves and Cerberus' risky actions after researching the Collector base will give us an even better chance. It's possible Harbringer doesn't know we didn't blow the base up!

And who knows if the Protean that was imprinted onto Vigil wasn't their TIM?

Too many unanswered questions to be destroying every link to the past that we could use to secure the future.

[Dragoncloud]

Mallissin wrote...

WHAT?! They were under Reaper indocrination! The Heretic Geth only existed because the Reapers created a rounding error, which was what Legion wanted to do as well. So, if you picked the Paragon path you would have removed the Reaper code and the Geth would reunite.

Instead you halved the Geth army that might help you in the coming battle!

Definitely have trust issues.

Actually the virus does the rounding error, but the heretics didn't have that, Legion states that the Heretics willingly came to the consensus of helping the reapers.

[Shady314]

Dragoncloud wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

WHAT?! They were under Reaper indocrination! The Heretic Geth only existed because the Reapers created a rounding error, which was what Legion wanted to do as well. So, if you picked the Paragon path you would have removed the Reaper code and the Geth would reunite.

Instead you halved the Geth army that might help you in the coming battle!

Definitely have trust issues.

Actually the virus does the rounding error, but the heretics didn't have that, Legion states that the Heretics willingly came to the consensus of helping the reapers.

But was it "willingly" or did they come to this conclusion the way Saren did? INDOCTRINATION?

Anyways everyone thinks destroying the base was the right thing to do because the place was terrifying as ****! Try to imagine the actual horror you would experience in that place. Seeing humans trapped in pods, turned into goo in front of your eyes and being pumped like excrement through tubes to make some monster. It's an emotional reaction not a logical one. People feel places and things can become tainted through association. Hence the reason places sell for less if a murder took place there or why most people wouldn't wear a perfectly good sweater that belonged to Charles Manson. In the heat of the moment most people would choose to utterly destroy a place like that.

Modifié par Shady314, 04 février 2010 - 10:05 .

[TLK Spires]

think of it like this



TIM = hitler in space

shepard = german commander

rest of your team = jews



you gave hitler a galactic oven. don't tell me that you are surprised that the jews are displeased with you.

[RampantBeaver]

I think its great that theres a lot of controversy over this one. ME1's ending, although there was still some debate, was a lot more clear cut in terms of which choice is the paragon and which ones the renegade.



It wouldn't surprise me if Bioware are taking note of this and will put a lot of time into developing some equally unexpected repercussions for both decisions. I hope for ME3, being the last of the trilogy, they don't hold back.



They are no longer restricted by a story line that needs to stay singular and i want to see some very distinctive alternate endings.

[elucid07]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That's because they understand that it was an obscenely stupid idea to keep the base. Every bit of Reaper tech that's been recovered has led to indoctrination. It's bad. Just bad. Keeping it is beyond stupid... (Though both Garrus and Mordin so far have suggested it might be worth keeping to me.) Still... it's dumb to keep it.

Barring the mass relays and the citadel.

You know, the two bits of Reaper tech that have had the most influence over the galaxy.

I don't think it's the tech itself, rather I believe that the Reaper cores, unless destroyed or rendered completely inert (not just disabled, but offline - permanently), lead to indoctrination.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TLK Spires wrote...

think of it like this

TIM = hitler in space
shepard = german commander
rest of your team = jews

you gave hitler a galactic oven. don't tell me that you are surprised that the jews are displeased with you.

Stupidiest analogy I have ever heard. If TIM was indeed Hitler, he would never tell you to go get Jews into your team in the first place.

[jxd73]

TLK Spires wrote...

think of it like this

TIM = hitler in space
shepard = german commander
rest of your team = jews

you gave hitler a galactic oven. don't tell me that you are surprised that the jews are displeased with you.

That is one of the dumbest analogy I've ever seen.

[manyfistss]

The Collectors WERE Protheans, however they succumbed to the indoctrination which destroys your mind creating a meat puppet to order around. The Reapers needed an organic race as slaves, and I guess the protheans weren't cut out to be "reborn" so to create slaves that did something other than drool and shuffle around the Reapers had to make some improvements. Using their vast knowledge they blended technology and biology, thus the Collectors were "born".



There's no indoctrination on the Collector Base, this would be counter productive and moot seeing how they're already their slaves. So I thought, keeping the base is the best thing. While EDI did a quick glimpse of the collector base's data it's still a quick glimpse. Handing it over to someone who understands the ordeal and isn't sticking his head in the sand is the best bet of saving the galaxy. Illusive Man doesn't want to wipe out the aliens, he just wants human dominance, which being human I agree. It's in our best interest to at least attempt to find more about our enemy before the time comes, while having the geth, rachni...etc. are great still, many more lives will be lost if there's even a glint of weakness that could've been found out.



In our age, information is key, more so I would imagine in ME universe. As Liara has pointed out that information is power.



It would be like if a terrorist cell had operations here in the United States, and we found their base of operations and take it down. However because it possibly is fruitless, and could damage reputations it's torched and all you got from this is two pieces of paper with tiny bits of data on it, then hope that'll teach them is naive. You want to know as much about your enemy as possible, and while it could contain damaging effects to say the president it's still worth the president's reputation and office than lives of many people.

[Spinal77]

I blew it up:



a) Because I'm a force for good and seeing my crew getting turned into alien milkshakes was not cool, and nothing with a reaper in it dead or alive should survive.



and more importantly



I don't think TIM is what he says he is. I don't think he's a human. With those weird glowy eyes and such I think he's something else, and using humans to do his dirty work. I don't trust him, therefore if he tells me he wants the base its getting blown up.



Am I the only one who thinks TIM isn't what everyone assumes he is?

[atheelogos]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Every bit of Reaper tech that's been recovered has led to indoctrination. It's bad. Just bad.

Hmmmm you haven't read about the new guns the Normandy has have you? Do you know where they came from? Reaper tech

Keeping the base is the smart thing to do. If your enemy is more technologically advanced than you should study their tech so you can advance your own. I mean come on could you actually see a country destroying advanced tech in the real world?

[atheelogos]

manyfistss wrote...

The Collectors WERE Protheans, however they succumbed to the indoctrination which destroys your mind creating a meat puppet to order around. The Reapers needed an organic race as slaves, and I guess the protheans weren't cut out to be "reborn" so to create slaves that did something other than drool and shuffle around the Reapers had to make some improvements. Using their vast knowledge they blended technology and biology, thus the Collectors were "born".

There's no indoctrination on the Collector Base, this would be counter productive and moot seeing how they're already their slaves. So I thought, keeping the base is the best thing. While EDI did a quick glimpse of the collector base's data it's still a quick glimpse. Handing it over to someone who understands the ordeal and isn't sticking his head in the sand is the best bet of saving the galaxy. Illusive Man doesn't want to wipe out the aliens, he just wants human dominance, which being human I agree. It's in our best interest to at least attempt to find more about our enemy before the time comes, while having the geth, rachni...etc. are great still, many more lives will be lost if there's even a glint of weakness that could've been found out.

In our age, information is key, more so I would imagine in ME universe. As Liara has pointed out that information is power.

It would be like if a terrorist cell had operations here in the United States, and we found their base of operations and take it down. However because it possibly is fruitless, and could damage reputations it's torched and all you got from this is two pieces of paper with tiny bits of data on it, then hope that'll teach them is naive. You want to know as much about your enemy as possible, and while it could contain damaging effects to say the president it's still worth the president's reputation and office than lives of many people.

this

[kab]

I didn't like the end. Where's the option to have the Council send a multi-species team out to learn anything and everything they can about the Reapers? I mean this entire time we've got everyone denying they exist because there's no proof. Now there's a giant station with all the information you could possibly want on the Reapers and how they're built and your only options are to turn it over to deceptive madman obviously out for power or destroy it forever?

[FlintlockJazz]

I dunno if this has already been mentioned, it's a long thread, but has anyone considered the fact that the reapers want us to develop along their technological path? They left the mass relays not only to trap us but to ensure our technology develops along their lines (imposing order on the chaos of organic evolution) and using the reaper tech is actually falling into their trap yet again.



Legion tells us that the true geth refused the reapers gift of a set future for their own, by developing their own technological path, and I have a feeling that we are going to find out that defeating the reapers means not taking the easy route and instead developing a whole new tech based on principles not based around the reaper tech all the civilisations are currently doing...

[dan107]

RampantBeaver wrote...

I think its great that theres a lot of controversy over this one. ME1's ending, although there was still some debate, was a lot more clear cut in terms of which choice is the paragon and which ones the renegade.

I was thinking that too. That's why it's so annoying that NONE of the squad mates think that it's a good idea to keep the base. Something that's so hotly debatable by the players, and it's as if the game is telling you that there's a "right" answer.

Modifié par dan107, 04 février 2010 - 03:40 .

[RampantBeaver]

dan107 wrote...

RampantBeaver wrote...

I think its great that theres a lot of controversy over this one. ME1's ending, although there was still some debate, was a lot more clear cut in terms of which choice is the paragon and which ones the renegade.

I was thinking that too. That's why it's so annoying that NONE of the squad mates think that it's a good idea to keep the base. Something that's so hotly debatable by the players, and it's as if the game is telling you that there's a "right" answer.

^ yes I said something along these lines earlier. Theres no real arguing amongst the team about what they think is the right thing to do. This I feel was done a bit better in ME1, there was always two opinions given to you by your companions. Like when wrex wasn't too happy if you decided to roast the rachni queen, but your other companion would advice against comitting genocide.

Modifié par RampantBeaver, 04 février 2010 - 04:12 .

[MasterMegatron]

If the enemy's weapons are better than mine, I'd like to have his. TIM gets rowdy with it, Shepard can put him down.

[Spinal77]

MasterMegatron wrote...

If the enemy's weapons are better than mine, I'd like to have his. TIM gets rowdy with it, Shepard can put him down.

You're assuming TIM is what he says he is...which is a somewhat risky assumption in my book.

[AuraofMana]

I don't see the hate with Cerberus, the organization is so much better than the Alliance and the Council. Cerberus get stuff done without politics involved, and I guess I am Renegade enough to agree with that the end justify the means (despite the fact that being Renegade in the game mostly mean you are just being a dick because apparently you can't be nice and Renegade). There are million of those Reapers, and it took that much effort in the first game to take ONE down. The better tech will probably be more of a help. I rather have Cerberus use it than destroying it. Sure, they are establishing humanity's superiority, but I rather be alive without any aliens than everyone dying from the Reapers.
Call me selfish, but that's survival.
Cerberus blew 4+ billion credits to resurrect you back, you owe TIM that much.  They want something from you for those credits and time they spent, and I am fine with that.  I like Cerberus better anyway.  TIM has done a lot of things right throughout the game too, so you should probably listen to the man.
Of course, you shouldn't follow his will, but most of his ideas were pretty good.  He did throw you into danger a couple of times, but I really doubt he blew all those credits and time on you just to get you killed for no reason.

Modifié par AuraofMana, 04 février 2010 - 04:28 .