416 réponses à ce sujet

[pelhikano]

I think TIM is exactly what he appears to be, namely a powerful, absolutely ruthless human who wants to see humanity at the top of the galaxy, and everyone else either as vassals under control or destroyed if they're dangerous. He realized though that with the Reaper threat EVERYONE is in danger, humanity included, and that there is so far only one person who has a real chance to defeat them through sheer badassery, and some amount of luck.



TIM was also the only guy who could be arsed to do anything about the humans getting abducted. The council, human-led or alien-led, simply ignored this from what I saw. TIM spent billions of credits to bring back to life Shepard and provided a new ship as well so he/she could deal with the problem once again. Why would he go through all that if he was a Reaper marionette? He was directly opposing Harbinger in this game. Whatever he is, he is not on the Reaper's side. If this whole plot was in fact some sort of convoluted plan that somehow aids the Reapers I give up, because I really can't make any sense of that.

[Spinal77]

pelhikano wrote...
 If this whole plot was in fact some sort of convoluted plan that somehow aids the Reapers I give up, because I really can't make any sense of that.

I'm not saying he's working for the reapers. But I still don't believe that he is what he says he is.

[pelhikano]

You think he's an alien only pretending to be ridiculously human-supremacist?

[Thaddeus Mynor]

I think its great that we're all so conflicted on this issue of the base. And the point i was trying to raise was that I wish our companions on the Normandy would reflect that. This isn't a total black and white issue, yet our entire squad applauds us for destroying the base and admonishes us for keeping it.



Somethings are done for the greater good. and I am just praying that some renegade choice somewhere will reflect that. (Rachni, Feros, Sacrificing Council, Geth, Quarian War, Wrex, Genophage, Collectors Base). that & i just wish our companions who signed on saying that they are willing to make the hard choices, are actually for the hard choices you make..

[pelhikano]

Yeah, I don't really mind either way, if keeping the base was the "wrong" way to go so be it. I'd love to see an interesting consequence though for this decision, and now I'm wondering if it will be more than an email saying "everybody inside the base got indoctrinated and we lost it lol" in ME3.



Another way I hope Bioware *doesn't* handle the issue would be that in ME3 you visit a small part of the station that is magically undamaged and flying through space after the explosion, with the only difference being in case you didn't destroy the station that you face fewer enemies.

[Mallissin]

Dragoncloud wrote...
Actually the virus does the rounding error, but the heretics didn't have that, Legion states that the Heretics willingly came to the consensus of helping the reapers.

If you take the situation at face value and assume Legion understands everything that's happening, sure...that's one way of looking at it.

But considering that Legion couldn't understand why the heretic geth were doing so many things outside the geth's normal behaviors, you can't assume Legion's explaination that the decision was made by free will. Keep in mind, all Geth see the same data and share opinions. How could such a small number suddenly come to a different conclusion so radical from normal geth thought? A machine suddenly finding religion? A religion that the Reapers have consistantly forced on their subjects?

The answer seems pretty apparent, that the heretics split from the Geth because of an outside force imprinted on them. That force was Sovereign/Navana, who was probably also the one behind the virus they were going to use against the normal Geth (which they only considered after Navana died and were making decisions on their own). Navana obviously created the skism to gain himself an ally and you helped correct it by using the virus that caused it to reverse the process.

Hence why rewriting was the Paragon choice.

Bioware does that kind of stuff to you. Toy with your emotions while presenting the right choice to you in a underhanded way. Take DAO's Orzammar politics. You and I might have seen Harrowmont as a better choice because of our RL views of politicians, but the bully Bhelen ended up being the best choice for the Dwarven people.

[Mallissin]

manyfistss wrote...
There's no indoctrination on the Collector Base, this would be counter productive and moot seeing how they're already their slaves. So I thought, keeping the base is the best thing. 

Agreed. The telepresence only took command of one Collector at a time and it was pretty easy to spot (glowing body and angry voice). The Collectors were modified as you mentioned to allow this, so humans wandering around the station are in no threat.

Besides investigating the base's technology, we also need to keep in mind that it could be possible to reverse engineer the telepresence system. Since the telepresense system on Normandy SR2 uses "quantum
entanglement", perhaps the Reaper tech does as well and if the
particles are still intact after the blue boom. If so, we could use the same entanglement to try to hack/slow the incoming Reapers or at least use it as a way to track Harbinger.

Information that could be very helpful in repulsing the invasion!

[Aquedius]

I would have much preferred to have an option of turning the base over to the council or alliance. Would have made me a much happier camper.

[tmp7704]

Mallissin wrote...

Keep in mind, all Geth see the same data and share opinions. How could such a small number suddenly come to a different conclusion so radical from normal geth thought?

This is not strange at all if you know how neural networks and genetic algorithms work (it's one of the currrent methods to create AI, there's decent overview here http://www.ai-junkie...olved/nnt1.html )

Basically, neural network takes certain inputs, weights each of these inputs in fixed manner and based on these weighted, combined values forms final decision. The whole "thought process" is in these weights applied to received inputs, this is not unlike human considering some factors more important than others when forming their decisions.

Now, the neural networks can be made self-evolving by generating networks with random weights in their nets, and allowing "survival of the fittest" take care of the weak specimens. You can also combine weights from various "succesful" nets much like humans combine their genes when they produce offsprings, with similar results (sometimes it works out, sometimes it leads to 'weak' offsprings)

Given all this, it is not unusual there'd appear some neural nets which would generate very different results from others, because of their combination of weights applied to the input. Even if the input is identical for every net.

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 février 2010 - 06:19 .

[BabeSlayer]

Being a humanity first type person saving the base and turning it over to the only competent organization (humanity wise) in the galaxy made total sense. Why wouldn't I let Cerberus take it? They are after all the first and last line of human defense...the Alliance be damned.

[F3ralCr]

I was quite annoyed myself. I fully expected at least Mordin to support my decision to keep the base because of the millions of years of scientific advancement that would be lost if I destroyed it.

Let me reiterate that.

If you destroy the Collector base, you are destroying MILLIONS of years of scientific advancement. HOW IS SAVING THAT A BAD THING?

[Abriael_CG]

BabeSlayer wrote...

Being a humanity first type person saving the base and turning it over to the only competent organization (humanity wise) in the galaxy made total sense. Why wouldn't I let Cerberus take it? They are after all the first and last line of human defense...the Alliance be damned.

Because they already demonstrated (on Akuze) that they won't have any qualm in sacrificing tons of humans to make the tech of the base work.

[tmp7704]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Because they already demonstrated (on Akuze) that they won't have any qualm in sacrificing tons of humans to make the tech of the base work.

Yes, they're more of "big picture" and "you have to break a few eggs" type.

[Giantevilhead]

Mallissin wrote...

manyfistss wrote...
There's no indoctrination on the Collector Base, this would be counter productive and moot seeing how they're already their slaves. So I thought, keeping the base is the best thing. 

Agreed. The telepresence only took command of one Collector at a time and it was pretty easy to spot (glowing body and angry voice). The Collectors were modified as you mentioned to allow this, so humans wandering around the station are in no threat.

Besides investigating the base's technology, we also need to keep in mind that it could be possible to reverse engineer the telepresence system. Since the telepresense system on Normandy SR2 uses "quantum
entanglement", perhaps the Reaper tech does as well and if the
particles are still intact after the blue boom. If so, we could use the same entanglement to try to hack/slow the incoming Reapers or at least use it as a way to track Harbinger.

Information that could be very helpful in repulsing the invasion!

They have tech in the Collector base that can make husks and those things tend to make people crazy. Plus the base has the tech to make Reapers which would include indoctrination tech.

Also, there was a holographic display of Harbinger in the Collector General's "command center" and Harbinger spoke directly to the Collector General. That means there is a method of direct communication between the base and the Reapers.

[Xakthos]

Abriael_CG wrote...

BabeSlayer wrote...

Being a humanity first type person saving the base and turning it over to the only competent organization (humanity wise) in the galaxy made total sense. Why wouldn't I let Cerberus take it? They are after all the first and last line of human defense...the Alliance be damned.

Because they already demonstrated (on Akuze) that they won't have any qualm in sacrificing tons of humans to make the tech of the base work.

I think the old saying about breaking eggs for omelets comes into play here. If nothing else humans can afford that sacrifice due to the birth rate as opposed to say krogan who are having problems with their population or quarian who have a finite amount of people due to space constraints on their growth.  Lots of people have died through human history in order to advance it (see space programs for instance). Its a calculated risk vs reward.  In an ideal world sacrifices like that wouldn't be needed but given the size of the Reaper threat is waiting for an ideal the best option? 

[glacier1701]

In the end it comes down to this - for at least 37 million years various species have been using Reaper technology and not one of them survived the coming of the Reapers. The Collector base is just another example of Reaper technology so why should it give us any advantage now that has not been explored in the past 37 million years? Basically blowing up the base means that whatever you do come up with should, at the very least, have the surprise of not being predictable by the Reapers. After all they have not had to deal with a species that hasnt used used Reaper technology in a very long time. Trying to deal with something outside the parameters of Reaper tech and failing could be the very thing that saves us.

Modifié par glacier1701, 04 février 2010 - 06:33 .

[Abriael_CG]

tmp7704 wrote...
Yes, they're more of "big picture" and "you have to break a few eggs" type.

Turning hundreds of thousands of humans into goo (because that's how that base works) isn't really what I would define "break a few eggs".

bottomline. giving the base to Cerberus is an absolutely douche move, and evidently so. The fact that all your companions uninaimously approve destroying it  and Miranda goes as far as telling TIM to go screw himself should be enough of an hint of that.

[tmp7704]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Turning hundreds of thousands of humans into goo (because that's how that base works) isn't really what I would define "break a few eggs".

But it is not what Cerebrus did. You are using their history to somehow conclude they would "turn hundredds of thousands of humans into goo" even though as you say yourself, this is a very different thing from what they actually have done.

The fact that all your companions uninaimously approve destroying it  and Miranda goes as far as telling TIM to go screw himself should be enough of an hint of that.

Your companions unanimously approve pretty much anything you do, no matter what you actually do. See Dragon Age as example of what happens when NPCs dare to have mind of their own.

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[Giantevilhead]

It should be noted that the Collector base may be much older than we think. The mass relays existed long before the Protheans. That means the region of space beyond the Omega 4 relay has been used by the Reapers for a very long time. For all we know, the Collector base may have been created millions of years ago, and that the Collectors are simply the most recent inhabitants. That certainly implies that the Collector base would have tech that can influence many different species.

[Abriael_CG]

tmp7704 wrote...
But it is not what Cerebrus did. You are using their history to somehow conclude they would "turn hundredds of thousands of humans into goo" even though as you say yourself, this is a very different thing from what they actually have done.

That's what the purpose of that base it. There's no place inside it that isn't covered by "turn humans into goo" capsules. So what do you think they want the base for, to build a club? 
Any knowledge stored inside has been salvaged by IDA anyway, so the only purpose of keeping the base is to actually use it.

Your companions unanimously approve pretty much anything you do, no matter what you actually do. See Dragon Age as example of what happens when NPCs dare to have mind of their own.

Not really. You will not receive a single hing of approval from anyone of them if you keep the base.

[arithon.kelis]

Honestly, the main reason I blew it was because of the cutscene *right* before TIM calls you (right after knocking out the human reaper's support/food-pipes.

As the cutscene plays, it follows the falling reaper, then pans around, showing what appears to be the ceiling.  Through a gap between a couple of plates, you can see TIM standing there.

Creepy.  As.  Hell.

No, Mr. Big-As-A-Reaper, you don't get this toy.

[Series5Ranger]

dan107 wrote...

TheRastapopolous wrote...
how most people could even consider destroying that base is beyound me.

I think it's subconscious meta-gaming. People know that it's a game and that it will end well even if you do all the "nice" things, that's why they throw away the base. However, if you were really in Shepard's shoes, and really were facing a very serious possibility of human extinction, you'd have to be out of your f*cking mind to throw out your only know hope for salvation. Hell, I'd personally feed half the humans in the galaxy into that thing if it meant saving the other half.

By Becoming the Very Enemy you're trying to destroy...

[pelhikano]

glacier1701 wrote...

Basically blowing up the base means that whatever you do come up with should, at the very least, have the surprise of not being predictable by the Reapers. After all they have not had to deal with a species that hasnt used used Reaper technology in a very long time. Trying to deal with something outside the parameters of Reaper tech and failing could be the very thing that saves us.

They didn't predict the Protheans using a mini-Mass Relay to make a backdoor into the Citadel either. Mass Relays are not only Reaper tech, they are THE Reaper tech. Also, why is it so obvious that anyone will come up with *anything* remotely useful until the Reapers arrive? Who are these super-scientists that are just about to drag some amazing bunny of new technology out of their hats which will be powerful? Apart from TIM nobody even seems to care that this threat even exists!

[Abirn]

Aquedius wrote...

I would have much preferred to have an option of turning the base over to the council or alliance. Would have made me a much happier camper.

Why?  They will probably just call it a chunk of floating debris and refuse to acknowledge it like they did saren.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Abirn wrote...

Aquedius wrote...

I would have much preferred to have an option of turning the base over to the council or alliance. Would have made me a much happier camper.

Why?  They will probably just call it a chunk of floating debris and refuse to acknowledge it like they did saren.

Most probably yea. But still, it should have been an option.


For those asking what good can the base do, other than create reapers. IF that isn't obvious, and I am amazed that it isn't obvious to many people. Knowing how to create something = knowing it inside and out. Aka, knowing the reapers inside and out. If all of that isn't obvious, then read the rest of the thread, because this has already been discussed to death and all the potential benefits of acquiring the base have been listed.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2010 - 07:13 .