416 réponses à ce sujet

[Da Mecca]

I don't know how people got the idea that keeping the base might be for the best considering most of its technology was focused on melting people down to be used to create a synthetic super being.





You wanted their technology? For what? EDI downloaded all the valuable data inside the base and your Thanix cannon can take out collector ships in two hits. You have a Collector Beam cannon in the armory. What more could you possibly need?

[Collider]

Nothing wrong with the teammates being against saving the collector base. It's much more believable if the teammates have their own opinions rather than blindly just agreeing or following Shepard no matter what he does. The teammates spent hell trying to take down the collectors and you end up saving the collector base? Lame.



That's just another one of the things that ME2 has over ME1, the loyalty and approval factor.

[tmp7704]

Abriael_CG wrote...

That's what the purpose of that base it. There's no place inside it that isn't covered by "turn humans into goo" capsules. So what do you think they want the base for, to build a club?

I'd figure they can use it to study exactly how the Reapers are made, what's their weak points, what's their weapons and defenses and other stuff like that. How they manipulate organic species (the way they did with Protheans) Maybe even what their plans are. Furthermore at the point where we make the decision we don't actually know what sort of information this base can provide. We're just guessing. And if you blow it up, you're never going to find out.

If you keep it, you can always blow it up later. The other way around not so much.

Any knowledge stored inside has been salvaged by IDA anyway, so the only purpose of keeping the base is to actually use it.

How do you know it? That base could hold absolutely huge amounts of data, yet you expect your onboard AI was able to find it all, override all locks and defenses, get access to everything and grab it complete in the short time it took you to blow the place up?

Yes, i'm sure Protheans/Reapers use just the right communication protocols to make it possible for a human vessel with inferior technology to achieve all that. Over a remote connection to boot. When even humans nowadays have better security protocols than that. There's this basic concept of the really important data not being part of any network, for one.

Not really. You will not receive a single hing of approval from anyone of them if you keep the base.

They basically told me they're afraid the existence of the base can be misused, but they hope i made the right call. Which is pretty much what my Shepard was thinking herself so i have no problem with that. Yes, it's a gamble but the alternative to blow the place up without as much as one good look at what's inside is also a gamble and a worse one imo.

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 février 2010 - 07:28 .

[tariq071]

You do understand that difference between keeping or blowing the base
will be ,most likely, represented by giving you(or not) access to
additional personal weapon or armor option and nothing else.Those that
blow it up will be compensate some other way.

For BW to allow
anything more , it would require 2 completely different games.Don't
expect that base will make it easier to blow up Reapers or something
like that.Decison is there for RP purposes.

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 07:47 .

[tariq071]

Double post

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 07:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...

You do understand that difference between keeping or blowing the base will be ,most likely, represented by giving you(or not) access to additional personal weapon or armor option and nothing else.Those that blow it up will be compensate some other way.

For BW to allow anything more , it would require 2 completely different games.

I think the decision will affect the story in a general sense and not really any gameplay mechanic.
In ME3, there is no concern to import the story to another game. So Bioware can afford to make very divergent stories this time around. I think the issue of the base is going to mostly affect the end battle (perhaps in an indirect way, or maybe more direct) and the epilogue.  

[tariq071]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tariq071 wrote...

You do understand that difference between keeping or blowing the base will be ,most likely, represented by giving you(or not) access to additional personal weapon or armor option and nothing else.Those that blow it up will be compensate some other way.

For BW to allow anything more , it would require 2 completely different games.

I think the decision will affect the story in a general sense and not really any gameplay mechanic.
In ME3, there is no concern to import the story to another game. So Bioware can afford to make very divergent stories this time around. I think the issue of the base is going to mostly affect the end battle (perhaps in an indirect way, or maybe more direct) and the epilogue.  

That would be all good and welcomed by me. But considering todays consumers psyche , no one would like to loose in "Grand Finale" ,just because they choose to blow up or not the base.

No game will allow that nowdays, when most of the popualtion wants to win one way or another.Now if this was 10+ years ago...i would have expect dramatic difference in ending due to that choice, but not today.I can see lot of players being upset because they have to replay ME2 in order o have any chance in ME3.

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 07:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tariq071 wrote...

You do understand that difference between keeping or blowing the base will be ,most likely, represented by giving you(or not) access to additional personal weapon or armor option and nothing else.Those that blow it up will be compensate some other way.

For BW to allow anything more , it would require 2 completely different games.

I think the decision will affect the story in a general sense and not really any gameplay mechanic.
In ME3, there is no concern to import the story to another game. So Bioware can afford to make very divergent stories this time around. I think the issue of the base is going to mostly affect the end battle (perhaps in an indirect way, or maybe more direct) and the epilogue.  

That would be all good and welcomed by me. But considering todays consumers psyche , no one would like to loose in Grand Finale ,just because they choose to blow up or not the base.

No game will allow that nowdays, when most of the popualtion wants to win one way or another.Now if this was 10+ years ago...i would have expect dramatic difference in ending due to that choice, but not today.

Sure, I think everyone will win at the end. Maybe die in the process due to some decisions. But yea everyone will win. I was more talking about the epilogue, as in after the victory. Mostly whether thre galaxy is dominated by humans or not.

Although an outcome where you might lose would actually be interesting. But I doubt it would be there.

[Mallissin]

tmp7704 wrote...
Given all this, it is not unusual there'd appear some neural nets which would generate very different results from others, because of their combination of weights applied to the input. Even if the input is identical for every net.

I'm sorry, but I highly doubt that a neural net running for a billion years would make up a religion. Computers run off logic and there is no randomness to logic. Something is either rational and quantifiable, or irrational and an error. There are no "beliefs" in logic.

The fact the Heretic geth began their split when Sovereign arrived cannot be ignored. Whether you wish to believe their story that witnessing a superior machine made them want to worship it or that Sovereign's indoctrination made them think that way is irrelevant. In either case, the issue would not have happened if not corrupted by the Reapers and since it's your mission to stop the Reapers, it should also be your mission to save the Heretic Geth.

Leading us back to the Paragon option.

[tariq071]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sure, I think everyone will win at the end. Maybe die in the process due to some decisions. But yea everyone will win. I was more talking about the epilogue, as in after the victory. Mostly whether thre galaxy is dominated by humans or not.

Although an outcome where you might lose would actually be interesting. But I doubt it would be there.

Well, you already have those options with ME1 ending (Council or Udina). That's outcome of playing Paragon  or Renegad.Base will not tip odds in any direction in any decisive way. At most, PC character (Shepard presumably ) will start with some additional Paragon/Renegade points as bonus, but that's about how far they can go without making 2 completely different games.


P.S. i wouldn't personally mind if i get my behind whooped thoroughly in the end, as result of decision that i made in ME1 and ME2. It would actually be something refreshing and exciting, not being able to win due to personal choices.

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 08:06 .

[Mallissin]

Aquedius wrote...

I would have much preferred to have an option of turning the base over to the council or alliance. Would have made me a much happier camper.

Agreed. I'm hoping that's a subplot mission in ME3 if the base remains and TIM doesn't do good by his word.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sure, I think everyone will win at the end. Maybe die in the process due to some decisions. But yea everyone will win. I was more talking about the epilogue, as in after the victory. Mostly whether thre galaxy is dominated by humans or not.

Although an outcome where you might lose would actually be interesting. But I doubt it would be there.

Well, you already have those options with ME1 ending (Council or Udina). That's outcome of playing Paragon  or Renegad.Base will not tip odds in any direction in any decisive way. At most, PC character (Shepard presumably ) will start with some additional Paragon/Renegade points as bonus, but that's about how far they can go without making 2 completely different games.

"The base will ensure human dominance. Against the reapers and beyond". That kinda of hints that it might cause humanity to be even more dominanant.
At least I hope Bioware will make it so. That will remain to be seen.

[tariq071]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"The base will ensure human dominance. Against the reapers and beyond". That kinda of hints that it might cause humanity to be even more dominanant.
At least I hope Bioware will make it so. That will remain to be seen.

Yah , well...we were also ensured that Iraq had caches of WMD, and yet it turned out to be just lame excuse for us getting there, and we got stuck there several years after declaring being victorious.

Nevertheless, it is there(same for Shepard's statement about not losing his soul as Paragon outcome) for player to make choice between Paragon or Renegade. If you kept Udina in ME 1 it fits perfectly with your character, and if you kept Council , it gives you chance to change you mind and switch to Renegade by keeping it.

Same goes for opposite direction.

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 08:26 .

[tmp7704]

Mallissin wrote...

I'm sorry, but I highly doubt that a neural net running for a billion years would make up a religion. Computers run off logic and there is no randomness to logic. Something is either rational and quantifiable, or irrational and an error. There are no "beliefs" in logic.

But the geth don't actually make up anything. Instead some of them conclude that Reapers are their superiors with god-like levels of power. It's not belief in magic pixie in the sky you never get to see, it's their interpretation of a being that most definitely, physically exists in front of them.

The split between heretics and regular geth is whether the power offered by the Reapers should by used by the geth or not. Not if there's this great AI god that no one has ever seen.

[Abriael_CG]

tmp7704 wrote...
I'd figure they can use it to study exactly how the Reapers are made, what's their weak points, what's their weapons and defenses and other stuff like that. How they manipulate organic species (the way they did with Protheans) Maybe even what their plans are.

That's why EDI scanned the base for data.

If you keep it, you can always blow it up later. The other way around not so much.

yes, sure, TIM will of course let you blow it up once you give it to him and have it filled with Cerberus personnel. Dream on

How do you know it? That base could hold absolutely huge amounts of data, yet you expect your onboard AI was able to find it all, override all locks and defenses, get access to everything and grab it complete in the short time it took you to blow the place up?

EDI looks pretty much limitless once unlocked, so yes, I expect just that, and everything from the game's ending points in that direction.

They basically told me they're afraid the existence of the base can be misused, but they hope i made the right call.

if it was so, they'd comment on it. They don't.

Again,  there's nothing more amusing then seeing people bending over twice to justify their decisions in a game. Just as amusing as seeing convoluted explanations trying to explain that renegade shepard is a mistaken anti-hero, and not just a badly written ballsy jerk on steroids.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 04 février 2010 - 08:25 .

[pelhikano]

Abriael_CG wrote...
Again,  there's nothing more amusing then seeing people bending over twice to justify their decisions in a game :innocent:

And both sides see the other side in this light.

[Abriael_CG]

pelhikano wrote..
And both sides see the other side in this light.

Actually I see a lot of cumsy threads opened to try (and fail) to justify this or that renegade action (with a particular focus on the base), while I see no thread opened to justify paragon ones.

I guess one side feels the need to try and gain their peers' approval, for some reason.

[pelhikano]

Don't know about "justify", it's just something interesting to talk about. Not much to talk about any more when you get simply get rid of the "problem" altogether.

[Mallissin]

tariq071 wrote...
Well, you already have those options with ME1 ending (Council or Udina). That's outcome of playing Paragon  or Renegad.Base will not tip odds in any direction in any decisive way. At most, PC character (Shepard presumably ) will start with some additional Paragon/Renegade points as bonus, but that's about how far they can go without making 2 completely different games.

No one knows if the Anderson/Udina choice was a Paragon/Renegade one, since you don't get any points either way from that decision. It should be noted though, that choosing the "Concentrate on Sovereign" option (the neutral option which lets the Council die) is the default for new ME2 characters but there is no neutral option at the end of ME2.

I also don't think saving the Council gets you a Paragon bonus on ME2 imports. Those who saved the Council more than likely had a lot of Paragon points at the end and that's what carried over into the Paragon bonus on import.

[tariq071]

Abriael_CG wrote...

pelhikano wrote..
And both sides see the other side in this light.

Actually I see a lot of cumsy threads opened to try (and fail) to justify this or that renegade action (with a particular focus on the base), while I see no thread opened to justify paragon ones.

I guess one side feels the need to try and gain their peers' approval, for some reason.

 Renegade option is more and more looking like you are playing shotsided ultra racist human that doesn't care
about any other sentient being, other then being humanity slaves.I don't think that my stomach would be
able to live with that outcome, but some people don't mind playing that
way and cudos to them for it.

As such it's completely understandable and realistic to keep the base as final outcome, in hope that it will strenghten the grip that humanity will have over other "lesser" species. I don't see to much of difference between that  and what Reapers are intending to do.

[tmp7704]

Abriael_CG wrote...

yes, sure, TMI will of course let you blow it up once you give it to him and have it filled with Cerberus personnel. Dream on

We've seen in two games so far Cerberus personnel isn't exactly much of concern. You've actually defeated them multiple times yourself. But you expect them in this one instance to be harder enemy than Collectors because it happens to suit your argument?

EDI looks pretty much limitless once unlocked, so yes, I expect just that, and everything from the game's ending points in that direction.

It's going to take EDI over a year to decrypt just the chunk of data grabbed from Cerberus side-mission. She's not limitless. And she also cannot do the physically impossible, like downloading data which is kept airtight for security purposes.

if it was so, they'd comment on it. They don't.

That's what they say when you speak to them after the mission is over, if you choose to continue the game.

Again,  there's nothing more amusing then seeing people bending over twice to justify their decisions in a game :innocent:

Yes; like trying to convince oneself they didn't destroy anything that could be important.

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 février 2010 - 08:33 .

[tariq071]

Mallissin wrote...

No one knows if the Anderson/Udina choice was a Paragon/Renegade one, since you don't get any points either way from that decision. It should be noted though, that choosing the "Concentrate on Sovereign" option (the neutral option which lets the Council die) is the default for new ME2 characters but there is no neutral option at the end of ME2.

I also don't think saving the Council gets you a Paragon bonus on ME2 imports. Those who saved the Council more than likely had a lot of Paragon points at the end and that's what carried over into the Paragon bonus on import.

Let me rephrase it then , saving Council or placing dominating Human instead (that being Anderson or Udina).

I can't see in any way how placing all power of multicultural galaxy in hands of one species can be Paragon outcome in any way. If i am Asari or Turian (or anyone else) i would feel mistreated, rightfully.

If that's great, why we don't have American (or Russian or any other national leader ) representing whole Earth population today? It's hegemony and no hegemony is justifiable and positive.So it's obvious Renegade choice.

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 08:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...
As such it's completely understandable and realistic to keep the base as final outcome, in hope that it will strenghten the grip that humanity will have over other "lesser" species. I don't see to much of difference between that  and what Reapers are intending to do.

Wanting to create a dominant power doesn't mean you have to consider aliens lesser. The USA doesn't consider anyone lesser, despite being the hegemon. The Islamic Caliphate didn't consider anyone lesser, but it dominated over everyone....etc etc.
I kept the base and put humanity in the council, and I still helped aliens, made the cure for the genophage, helped the Geth, made those who hate quarians stfu...etc.
It has nothing to do with hating aliens. And everything to do with humanity advancing and taking power.

And the Reapers want to exterminate, as far as we know. Not really dominate.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2010 - 08:37 .

[pelhikano]

Personally I played a Kumbaya-All-Sentients-Are-Brothers Paragon the entire time, and would have blown up the base because there was no indication that there was any other way to deal with the problem right up until the last minute where you suddenly learn there's an alternative. In my character's eyes, the danger of TIM building some sort of Human Empire paled in comparison to the danger of the Reapers killing every living thing in the galaxy. Having a galaxy governed by a "speciesist" humanity is infinitely preferable to an empty lifeless galaxy after all.

[Jax Sparrow]

D3thray wrote...  One man's terrorist is another man's founding father.  What do you think continental congress was to the British during the war for independence.

While I do agree that the writers are genius the very idea that our founding fathers were terrorists? is ludicrous.  A terrorist uses "terror" as a weapon, and that is how they get that particular designation.  Our founding fathers used truth and freedom as a weapon, which means they are closer to the classification 'rebels' than anythings else.

To tie this into the topic at hand;  TIM is perfectly willing, if not eager, to use terror to forward his xenophobic agenda.  So, yes TIM is a 'terrorist' more than anything else.  The option I want is to take Cerberus away from TIM and bend the organization to the Council's will... more specifically to Sheppards will.

I also want an option where I lay into the Council after I defeat the Reapers AGAIN;  Like, how I have the option to lay into the Quarian's Admiralty for abusing Tali for their political infighting.  With the information my team gathered up to and after destroying Harbinger's deathstar? I think we should have the 'proof' to force the Citadel Council to see that Reapers exist and they are an ongoing threat to the entire galaxy.