416 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

tariq071 wrote...

If that's great, why we don't have American (or Russian or any other national leader ) representing whole Earth population today?

Nationalism; no one really likes it when it's some guy from elsewhere calling the shots. Plus the often well justified fear such leader would have bias towards 'their' people, also originating from the said nationalism.

[Abriael_CG]

tmp7704 wrote...
We've seen in two games so far Cerberus personnel isn't exactly much of concern. You've actually defeated them multiple times yourself. But you expect them in this one instance to be harder enemy than Collectors because it happens to suit your argument?

So basically you're gonna kill even more (human) people to blow it up? smartiepants....

It's going to take EDI over a year to decrypt just the chunk of data grabbed from Cerberus side-mission. She's not limitless. And she also cannot do the physically impossible, like downloading data which is kept airtight for security purposes.

Of course you ran a benchmark on EDI to know what she can and she cannot do? Please...

That's what they say when you speak to them after the mission is over, if you choose to continue the game.

Actually they say nothing much.

Yes; like trying to convince oneself they didn't destroy anything that could be important.

I don't really see any thread on that. All the threads I see are trying to justify keeping the base, and of course, failing miserably.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 04 février 2010 - 08:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

tariq071 wrote...

If that's great, why we don't have American (or Russian or any other national leader ) representing whole Earth population today?

Nationalism; no one really likes it when it's some guy from elsewhere calling the shots. Plus the often well justified fear such leader would have bias towards 'their' people, also originating from the said nationalism.

If an alien invasion came around and the only way for any of us to survive is for the USA to gain control over everyone else, I welcome this solution and I am not American.
Of course the USA today is not powerful enough to control everyone. If it does acquire that power, then kudos to them.

[tariq071]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wanting to create a dominant power doesn't mean you have to consider aliens lesser. The USA doesn't consider anyone lesser, despite being the hegemon. The Islamic Caliphate didn't consider anyone lesser, but it dominated over everyone....etc etc.
I kept the base and put humanity in the council, and I still helped aliens, made the cure for the genophage, helped the Geth, made those who hate quarians stfu...etc.
It has nothing to do with hating aliens. And everything to do with humanity advancing and taking power.

And the Reapers want to exterminate, as far as we know. Not really dominate.

But ultimately,as also USA today , you have the whip and means to enforce whatever you are at will , without considering them first. Even today superpowers don't ask others if they need to be helped every time.

All what is mentioned above ,you are presenting as act of charities , because you have highest power and can beat them into the ground, same as today's USA can do it.

I am an American and i don't see USA doing any favors to others today, unless if it's in our ultimate interest first and foremost and such others depends on our will and not on their own choice.

That is a huge difference for someone that is not American (or human in this case).If i am non-human , i don't want to depend on human feeling up to it or not to be helped.

In the end, domination is lot of times worse choice then death, and if it's not we would be still 13 Colonies under GB today and not USA.

There is no way that it is Paragon choice by any means.

[tariq071]

tmp7704 wrote...
Nationalism; no one really likes it when it's some guy from elsewhere calling the shots. Plus the often well justified fear such leader would have bias towards 'their' people, also originating from the said nationalism.

And why would then Asari or Turian be happy to let one Human (complete newcomer in Galaxy) to call shots for them ? How is that different?

If anything there is no democracy , but only Hegemony or Autocracy , which is exactly what Americans fought againts in Revolutionary war.

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 08:48 .

[pelhikano]

Abriael_CG wrote...

I don't really see any thread on that. All the threads I see are trying to justify keeping the base, and of course, failing miserably.

Sorry you feel that way. It's still an interesting discussion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...
But ultimately,as also USA today , you have the whip and means to enforce whatever you are at will , without considering them first. Even today superpowers don't ask others if they need to be helped every time.

All what is mentioned above ,you are presenting as act of charities , because you have highest power and can beat them into the ground, same as today's USA can do it.

I am an American and i don't see USA doing any favors to others today, unless if it's in our ultimate interest first and foremost and such others depends on our will and not on their own choice.

That is a huge difference for someone that is not American (or human in this case).If i am non-human , i don't want to depend on human feeling up to it or not to be helped.

In the end, domination is lot of times worse choice then death, and if it's not we would be still 13 Colonies under GB today and not USA.

There is no way that it is Paragon choice by any means.

I am not American and I see that the USA's role in the world has been more positive then negative. It was the USA that made sense of the world economy. It was the USA that helped Europe rise to its feet. It was the USA that made countries like Germany and Japan become one of the richest and most peaceful countries in the world despite their past. It was the USA that leads the worlds in scientific advancement, medical advancement and entertainement...etc etc

Yes, it will depend on the will of the hegemon. But if a faction is able to become the hegemon, then good for them.
 Thucydides: "The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must".
If I was a non-human, I would admire humanity for standing up and becoming this powerful. And I won't whine about it being "unfair" and all that yaddi yadda crap.
If a nation siezes power, then it deserves it. Fullstop.

I see humanity capable of dominating everyone else. I will go for it.
Too bad for aliens, but if they want to do something about it, they need to whine less and work harder. The same could be said about my people who keep looking at past glory and whine about the USA, while they are doing nothing.

But as I said, it has nothign to do with hating aliens. At least not on my part.
And I don't really care about "renegade" or "paragon". Call it whatever you want. I am still going to do it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[tmp7704]

Abriael_CG wrote...

So basically you're gonna kill even more (human) people to blow it up? smartiepants....

If it comes to that and if they stand in my way, yes. That's pretty much par for the course with Shepard, all the spilled blood of old victims make it difficult to climb on high horse about it.

Of course you ran a benchmark on EDI to know what she can and she cannot do? Please...

EDI tells you herself how long it'll take to decrypt the data. And are you seriously suggesting that she can do something physically impossible because 'i didn't run a benchmark'? That's honestly weak. In case you forgot, she couldn't even remotely hack the door in Collectors base, you had to get specialist in there.

And for that matter you didn't run any benchmarks on EDI abilities yourself so where does the belief she can do anything come from? It's blind faith and that's pretty bad foundation to base decisions on.

Actually they say nothing much.

They say little and the little they say is what i said. You may not like it but there it is.

I don't really see any thread on that.

It's because you're doing the hardest to ignore the factors you have no response to. When your argument how you couldn't possible lose anything important is "oh i believe EDI can do anything", well.

[tariq071]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, it will depend on the will of the hegemon. But if a faction is able to become the hegemon, then good for them.
If I was a non-human, I would admire humanity for standing up and becoming this powerful. And I won't whine about it being "unfair" and all that yaddi yadda crap.
If a nation can become powerful, then it deserves it. Fullstop.

So Hegemon is Paragon choice how then? You are enforcing your will onto everyone else. Where in history hegemonia is depicted as exteremily positive outcome.

And why admire humanity ? Didn't same humanity caused infinite number of wars over the course of history. I can think of one perfect example where bunch of uncivilized germanic tribes destroyed whole clasical word in 5th -6th century AD and caused (literaly ) 1000 years of darkness in European civilisation advance by doing that.

I am pretty sure that our nature should advance more in future than to stay on "survival of the fittest" point.Even the bible doesn't approve that view, and it never did.

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 09:01 .

[tmp7704]

tariq071 wrote...

And why would then Asari or Turian be happy to let one Human (complete newcomer in Galaxy) to call shots for them ? How is that different?

It's not different. However, please note this isn't justification why "hegemony is bad". It's a reason why people don't like this concept but it doesn't make it a bad system per se.

[tariq071]

tmp7704 wrote...

tariq071 wrote...

And why would then Asari or Turian be happy to let one Human (complete newcomer in Galaxy) to call shots for them ? How is that different?

It's not different. However, please note this isn't justification why "hegemony is bad". It's a reason why people don't like this concept but it doesn't make it a bad system per se.

No it's not about that , it's about why Hegemonia is not and should not be Paragon choice(obviously). I am discussing game by using real life examples as such.

It is and should be Renegade choice because it bringsd ultimate advantage and power to only one side and no one else, almost same as the Reaper agenda does for Reapers.

That's why keeping the base IS Renegade choice(even as per game according to TIM background being Orange), it brings up same results.

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 09:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, it will depend on the will of the hegemon. But if a faction is able to become the hegemon, then good for them.
If I was a non-human, I would admire humanity for standing up and becoming this powerful. And I won't whine about it being "unfair" and all that yaddi yadda crap.
If a nation can become powerful, then it deserves it. Fullstop.

So Hegemon is Paragon choice how then? You are enforcing your will onto everyone else. Where in history hegemonia is depicted as exteremily positive outcome.

And why admire humanity ? Didn't same humanity caused infinite number of wars over the course of history. I can think of one perfect example where bunch of uncivilized germanic tribes destroyed whole clasical word in 5th -6th century AD and caused (literaly ) 1000 years of darkness in European civilisation advance by doing that.

I am pretty sure that our nature should advance more in future than to stay on "survival of the fittest" point.Even the bible doesn't approve that view, and it never did.

You keep referring to "paragon". I already told you, I don't care about such labels. You don't want to see it as paragon? Go on right ahead. Calling me renegade is not going to make me change my mind in the slightest.

I know alot about human hsitory, including all the wars it did and I still admire it. War is not all negative. It brings progress.
When Rome fell, it was replaced by an even greater power (the Arabs, who indirectly allowed Europeans to rise up). When the Arabs fell, they were succeeded by someone else. And the cycle continues and will always continue. To the benefit of everyone else in the long run.

I don't want human nature to change. too many ideologies sought to change human nature and it lead to unnecessary atrocities (communist states, Robespierre, puritans, Inquisition, Fascism). No thanks, I like human nature as it is. 
And no offense, I don't really care what the bible says. Rather, I prefer this "Without conflict, the world would stagnate and be corrupt".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2010 - 09:09 .

[tmp7704]

tariq071 wrote...

No it's not about that , it's about why Hegemonia is not and should not be Paragon choice(obviously). I am discussing game by using real life examples as such.

Ah; actually i don't know about it. I mean, technically Shepard is making hegemon-like decisions regarding safety and fate of the whole galaxy. They may be paragon choices but it's still something you don't really consult with others. Do you feel constantly wrong and guilty with this sort of power in your hands and exercising it?

[Mallissin]

tmp7704 wrote...
But the geth don't actually make up anything. Instead some of them conclude that Reapers are their superiors with god-like levels of power. It's not belief in magic pixie in the sky you never get to see, it's their interpretation of a being that most definitely, physically exists in front of them.

The split between heretics and regular geth is whether the power offered by the Reapers should by used by the geth or not. Not if there's this great AI god that no one has ever seen.

Uh, it was repeated in ME 1 and 2 that the Heretics "worshipped" the Reapers. They helped Saren to "bring back their gods". It was fanatical, not a marriage of conveinence as you put it. You saw this often with little altars and during Sovereigns speach to you on Virmire.

What you're describing is what Legion thought was happening from the perspective of a non-Heretic. That's not what really happened, only how the rest of the Geth looked at the split (and in a sense tolerated the difference in opinion). Don't let Legion's limited perspective cloud yours.

As I said, it's the Reapers modus operandi to make themselves out to be gods and offer their servants technology. But it's never their own technology. For instance, the Reapers gave the Geth the Prothean Armature technology (something you noticed on Illos). Seems like the Reapers gave the Protheans technology from the race previous to them as well, since the Collector technology looks nothing like the rest of Prothean technology. It's mostly insect based, like the Keepers who were probably the race before the Protheans.

[Meister Kreig]

Honestly, destroy the base for the best outcome. Indoctrination is powerful and will overcome any agent who gets on board that vessel. The technology is better destroyed and then rebuilt from the pieces. The Normandy's cannons came from rebuilt pieces of a Reaper so why not just study the reaper from it's pieces. The pieces from the explosion are safer than a whole unit and can be kept apart to avoid people wanting to put it back together. The effects of Indoctrination are known so it can be prevented at an earlier stage. This will prevent any pieces that might overcome a crew and make the crew a bunch of slaves.

[Mallissin]

tariq071 wrote...
If that's great, why we don't have American (or Russian or any other national leader ) representing whole Earth population today? It's hegemony and no hegemony is justifiable and positive.So it's obvious Renegade choice.

To quote Bob Dyland, "Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord; But you're gonna have to serve somebody."

There's always one faction that has the most power. Whether you feel it's good or evil, depends on whether your an ally or an enemy.

[tariq071]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


You keep referring to "paragon". I already told you, I don't care about such labels. You don't want to see it as paragon? Go on right ahead. Calling me renegade is not going to make me change my mind in the slightest.

I know everything about human hsitory, including all the wars it did and I still admire it. WAr is not all negative. It brings progress.
When Rome fell, it was replaced by an even greater power (the Arabs, who indirectly allowed Europeans to rise up). When the Arabs fell, they were succeeded by someone else. And the cycle continues and will always continue. To the benefit of everyone else in the long run.

I don't want human nature to change. too many ideologies sought to change human nature and it lead to unnecessary atrocities (communist states, Robespierre, puritans, Inquisition, Fascism). No thanks, I like human nature as it is. 
And no offense, I don't really care what the bible says. Rather, I prefer this "Without conflict, the world would stagnate and be corrupt".

I guess you haven't been in any war yourself then. It is far from what you are describing it, trust me, because i have been in one for over 2 years(sadly).

However, no one is trying to change your mind (about what  exactly?) or anyone elses, but to show that keeping the base and as such creating one ultimate totalitarian system cannot be positive (Paragon) outcome. You kept the base, and want to play Ubermensch, good for you.I believe that everyone is equal in world(galaxy) good for me.

No offense to you, but i have not seen one single argument in your posts negating that , except highly assertive oppinion which only points towards some (false) human "superiority" over the others.

Even your analogy of Rome , and Arabs , etc..  can be looked same at what Reapers are doing ..one civilisation fell (Protheans) and was replaced by another and cycle goes on. I don't see anything different in that, and for all i know Reapers could be our troubled past that caused cycle that you are mentioning to happen on Earth multiple times.

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 09:20 .

[tmp7704]

Mallissin wrote...

Uh, it was repeated in ME 1 and 2 that the Heretics "worshipped" the Reapers.

Yes, but worship is a practice, a social behaviour if anything, not a belief. Religion is belief in supernatural powers without any actual proof of existence of such power. The geth have witnessed existence of Reapers. If they concluded such being is worthy of worship it doesn't strike me any more odd than say, EDI deciding to crack a joke.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...

However, no one is trying to change your mind (about what  exactly?) or anyone elses, but to show that keeping the base and as such creating one ultimate totalitarian system can be positive (Paragon) outcome. You kept the base, and want to play Ubermensch, good for you.I believe that everyone is equal in world(galaxy) good for me.

Exactly. Except I don't want a totalitarian system. Just a hegemon.

And positive =\\= paragon. Positive is a matter of opinion. I think what I did is positive. You don't think it is. Good for you.

tariq071 wrote...
No offense to you, but i have not seen one single argument in your posts negating that , except highly assertive oppinion which only points towards some (false) human "superiority" over the others.

That's because you are not reading what I am saying. I never said humans are inherently superior to anyone. I said humanity can become a hegemon and I am going to do that.
The rest is obviously opinion. Same with you. 

tariq071 wrote...
Even your analogy of Rome , and Arabs , etc..  can be looked same at what Reapers are doing ..one civilisation fell (Protheans) and was replaced by another and cycle goes on. I don't see anything different in that, and for all i know Reapers could be our troubled past that caused cycle that you are mentioning to happen on Earth multiple times.

Except that the Romans or the Arabs or the British were not exterminated when their civilsaition fell. Try harder.
And that's our human history. I can't change it for you. If you don't like it, that's your problem.

[pelhikano]

tariq071 wrote...

You kept the base, and want to play Ubermensch, good for you.I believe that everyone is equal in world(galaxy) good for me.

What? The main point of keeping the base is to gather information vital to defeat the Reapers. Even a Paragon Shepard could form that view.

[KnightofPhoenix]

pelhikano wrote...

tariq071 wrote...

You kept the base, and want to play Ubermensch, good for you.I believe that everyone is equal in world(galaxy) good for me.

What? The main point of keeping the base is to gather information vital to defeat the Reapers. Even a Paragon Shepard could form that view.

My Shepard is more paragon than renegade and he saved the base. But apparently for our friend Tareq, only Nietzcheians can do it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2010 - 09:29 .

[Abriael_CG]

tmp7704 wrote...
If it comes to that and if they stand in my way, yes. That's pretty much par for the course with Shepard, all the spilled blood of old victims make it difficult to climb on high horse about it.

Yeassure. So you go in a suicide mission to stop the collectors and acquire their base, only to give it to someone that will surely misuse it (since they misused basically everything they got their hands on so far), only to have to go to another nearly suicide mission to destroy that same base, killing hundreds of humans in the process, of course AFTER they would have had time to cause all the damages they could already.

What a smart approach. Perfectly fitting the chaotic stupid attitude of renegade shepard indeed

EDI tells you herself how long it'll take to decrypt the data.

And it'd take less for the base to be partly dismantled, explored and all? Not really. The fact that it'll take time to decrypt the data doesn't mean she didn't actually take all the data that was there.

They say little and the little they say is what i said. You may not like it but there it is.

yeah, the little they say, is that shepard has been a jerk, but they're stuck with him. There's for sure no approval in their words. On the other end, ALL of them approve wholeheartedly the destruction of the base.

It's because you're doing the hardest to ignore the factors you have no response to. When your argument how you couldn't possible lose anything important is "oh i believe EDI can do anything", well.

There isn't much to Ignore. There's no thread opened with anyone trying to justify destroying the base. All the threads on the base are opened by people that kept the base and try to persuade themselves and others that it was a good choice. That kind of insecurity already tells a lot.

[tariq071]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Except that the Romans or the Arabs or the British were not exterminated when their civilsaition fell. Try harder.
And that's our human history. I can't change it for you. If you don't like it, that's your problem.

Only because there was no technology available for that.

Salian laws show definite attemp to it,Saxon's invasion of Britain tried the same,Reqonquista, Conquest of Americas and  Mongols tried to do the same during their invasion of Muslim world(and part of Europe), by massacring everyone except few that they needed for their own use (think indoctrination in game terms)

Not different from Reapers at all, and it still doesn't justify Hegemony(ot totalitarity) being positive.

Again,  it is very obvious to me that you never tasted real war(luckily for you ) and without that no one can comprehend what real war is. All what you can see is gloryfied holywood presentation that is far from reality, unless you have been in one.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"The base will ensure human
dominance. Against the reapers and beyond".

This why i don't see it as Paragon, If it wasn't for that quote it can be possibly passable as Paragon.Plus game gives you Renegade for keeping it and Paragon for blowing it up , not that it matters that much.

Modifié par tariq071, 04 février 2010 - 09:41 .

[Vaenier]

First thing: Why does every alien refer to someone's balls as their "quads"?



On topic: I kept the base because it is the paragon thing to do. It would take one hell of a selfish renegade to blow up the greatest chance the galaxy has for survival because you don't like it.

[tariq071]

Vaenier wrote...

First thing: Why does every alien refer to someone's balls as their "quads"?

On topic: I kept the base because it is the paragon thing to do. It would take one hell of a selfish renegade to blow up the greatest chance the galaxy has for survival because you don't like it.

If that's Paragon thing, how many Paragon points you got for keeping it ?