416 réponses à ce sujet

[Myrmedus]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That's because they understand that it was an obscenely stupid idea to keep the base. Every bit of Reaper tech that's been recovered has led to indoctrination. It's bad. Just bad. Keeping it is beyond stupid... (Though both Garrus and Mordin so far have suggested it might be worth keeping to me.) Still... it's dumb to keep it.

This is where people are so insanely wrong it's...well...insane (Great Wind!)

You know that cannon on the Normandy that ripped through the Collector Ship in the Suicide Mission in two hits? Reaper Tech.

You know that minor proceedure that brought Shepard BACK TO LIFE? Reaper Tech.

Reaper tech doesn't INEVITABLY lead to bad things, it only leads to them when people don't take precautions. People might argue TIM doesn't but we've seen he does with the Derelict Reaper - yeah, the people got indoctrinated but that wasn't him dropping the ball so much as being a cold-hearted bastard and not caring as long as they got what they needed from it.

Anyway I saved the base. Why? Because it was the best for us and the best for TIM. Why do I care about what's best for TIM? Because he's voiced by Martin Sheen :/

Modifié par Myrmedus, 04 février 2010 - 11:17 .

[senojones]

tmp7704 wrote...
" ... There was a hole."

Yeah, but he got that hole way before he patched it with Shepards armor, when you ask why Legion picked Shepards armor over anyone else's, he doesn't have an answer. To me it shows Legion somewhat looks up to Shepard, he just doesn't know how to express that just yet.

../../../images/forum/emoticons/heart.png Legion, pity he died to save my team ../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png

I like Legion :[ It's always interested me to try and understand an AI, I find it good to hear a logical opinion and maybe even teach Legion the good values of morals and individualizm.

[tmp7704]

senojones wrote...

Yeah, but he got that hole way before he patched it with Shepards armor, when you ask why Legion picked Shepards armor over anyone else's, he doesn't have an answer.

Yeah i know, i pushed him so i got the 'no data' line after the hole thing... i just couldn't resist quoting him. Too adorable

[dan107]

Abriael_CG wrote...

pelhikano wrote..

And both sides see the other side in this light.

Actually I see a lot of cumsy threads opened to try (and fail) to justify this or that renegade action (with a particular focus on the base), while I see no thread opened to justify paragon ones.



I guess one side feels the need to try and gain their peers' approval, for some reason.

Could be that people who play paragon (or consider themselves "good" in general) are too narrow minded to realize that their actions require justification as well.

[Mallissin]

*applauds for KorPhaeron* Another person GETS IT!

[Vaenier]

You can always just blow up the base later if you want. But you cant bring it back.

[tariq071]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...
Ok Im human, as such im for humans, I my mind humans come first then I think about the Asari etc...
 

This definitely  goes with this :

KorPhaeron11 wrote...
 its called xenophobia.
 

And you are right. pardon me that i am not skillful with hate words , since i have no use for them IRL whatsoever.So i made mistake.Placing one species above others is exactly what it is.

KorPhaeron11 wrote...
I chose to keep the base, for one thing, its gona be usefull against the reapers and another im FOR human dominance.
 

And this is suppose to be less imaginary from possibility of same base causing huge problem if it's kept intact?Less scrupolous? Absolutely, but not less imaginary.

As for reasons why i blow up the base and why i will destroy it in every playthorugh.. It's not TIM's 'smile" ,  or blue moon afterwards..or something else that is supposedly narrow ..or anything even remotely exotic.My personal view of life (hence word my , not everyone else's) is not letting me to allow one species(or race irl) to be in control of others, no matter what prices is.Even if that base has "i win" button, which i guess lot of people think there is one...i would still blow it up.

Now, lot of people comes here charging about how it has to be kept for humanity sake. ..Well thanks, if i am playing Renegade, i'll surely do exactly that but i would not be under any illusion that it was something that is for equal benefit of every species in the galaxy. Using it mostly for benefit of one species /race is too narrowminded for me....even my own. If i am that "superior" to the others , then i don't even need that advantage.If i  am in that much of need to control(dominate) others, then i am affraid of the others...and i am weak and insecure.

So, keep it , blow it up..do at your will..it won't make to much of difference in ME3 anyways(except minor bonus one way or another).And whatever you do is right(correct) way to do it...for you and your game...

Modifié par tariq071, 05 février 2010 - 02:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Looking for our own first =/= xenophobia

[Sainthood82]

I want to keep it just to thicken the plot.

Will TIM betray us with the tech?

Will the Tech indoctrinate and threaten life?

Is there a technological secret that will give Cereberus an edge that will allow them to begin a war?




It opens doors!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sainthood82 wrote...

I want to keep it just to thicken the plot.

Will TIM betray us with the tech?

How would he betray us? Kill Shepard? Why would he do that? He knows Shepard is essential for humanity's survival.
Decides to side with the reapers? Unless Bioware turns idiotic, that won't happen. TIM knows the REapers are a threat to humanity.

Will the Tech indoctrinate and threaten life?

The technology itself doesn't indoctrinate. It's the Reapers that do. There is no Reaper in the base except for the one "baby" we destroyed. It is unlikely that the human reaper was developped enough to be able to use indoctrination. And if it was, it would be likely very basic. Furthermore, indoctrination takes time and Cerberus already delt with it. They would be able to deal with the situation.

In addition, even though Cerberus team was indoctrinated in the derelic reper, they still managed to find the IFF, which was essential.

Furthermore, there is no sign of indoctrination within the base. The collectors are not indoctrinated. They are genetically engineered to serve. The Collector overseer was not indoctrinated, but rather controlled "directly". That's not indoctrination as we know it. So the chances of the base somehow indoctrinating those inside are pretty slim.
And it wouldn't make sense for the REapers to indoctrinate the collectors, as we know that indoctrination makes the subject less capable. The last thing they need is incompetent collectors.

Is there a technological secret that will give Cereberus an edge that will allow them to begin a war?

To begin a war against whom? The Illusive Man isn't stupid. He knows the Reapers are coming. It's very unlikely he would use the tech to start a war with aliens while the reapers are coming. Would he use the tech in a war after the war with the Reapers? Maybe.

But doubtful. Cerberus is a secret organisation. It thrives upon secrecy. It's not in its interests to make itself that much of a public threat. In addition, it doesn't really need to go to war. It has everything set out for it (especially so in my playthrough). If there is a human council, it makes little sense for Cerberus to wage war aganst it. And it makes perfect sense to covertly control it.   We know that there ae many in the Alliance are actually Cerberus. Cerberus doesn't need to wage a full scale war.
It would use the technology to ensure human advancement and dominance. I doubt it would start a war, but it would surely use the technology should it or humanity be threatnened.

It opens doors!

And lots of opportunities.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 février 2010 - 03:08 .

[tariq071]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

Hey I wasnt ganking on you or something, and I agree 100% that keeping it or blowing it up comes down to your fellings on the matter and everything else is speculations.

Its just that I was starting to get pissed of by people posting about philosophical **** about good/evil and whatnot, or as some people belive despite the devs saying otherwise the paragon = good and renegade = evil which is untter crap.

A sociopath wouldnt care about human colonies going missing, a sociopath would take the ship and (like Jack said) go pirate and screw everyone else.

Anyway sorry again about jumming on you, iv read your posts again and you apear to be the calmest one here

That's ok..

People(not you) have to understand that Renegade is not necesarily equal to sociopath and Paragon is not necesarily equal to saints.

Only one thing is certain..Shepard is soldier(former Marine i believe) and Marines will be always Marines even if they are not in Corps anymore and they work for someone else. Or if you want British version SAS will always be SAS first, no matter what.

However, BW clearly layed path for those that choose one way or another to play.In case of base :

Renegade:
- you get points for keeping it and handing it over to (as represented so far in game )xenophobic terorristc organisation which is Cerberus
- sun behind TIM is orange
- You obviously there and before are favoring Humans over others, most of Renegade dialogues in game gear toward that

Paragon:
- You get points for blowing it up(you are not allowing base to get into Cerberus hands or possibly into Reapers)
- Sun is blue behind TIM
- Your dialogues are going towards "let's all go to Woodstock together !"

Is either of them wrong ? No it's not.They are there just for your RP purposes and nothing else.I'm sure that some people would play Reapers ally if game could allow them that.

Can Renegade blow up the base or Paragon keep it? Sure they can , but it differs from RP path that is layed down to them by BW and as such RP would lose it's meaning a bit.

But keeping base is clearly not something that was deemed as positive action by BW and blowing it up is not negative whatsoever.People should do whatever they want in their game , but they should not try to twist it into something that is not, just because they feel so.

Modifié par tariq071, 05 février 2010 - 03:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...
Can Renegade blow up the base or Paragon keep it? Sure they can , but it differs from RP path that is layed down to them by BW and as such RP would lose it's meaning a bit.

Strongly disagree. Nothing forces you to keep picking paragon or renegade choices. It's every decision for itself. I very much doubt that in real life, any of us ascribes to one "path" only and never mix.
Being a mix of Paragon and Renegade is not losing the RP meaning at all, on the very contrary.

RPG means making your own choices. And our choices and perceptiosn can and should vary from decision to decision. Imo, the one who picks the above paragon line each time without thinking is the one making RP lose its meaning.

In that light, my character was slightly more paragon then renegade and I genuinely felt actually being the character I am playing, which is what RPG is all about.

[tariq071]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Strongly disagree. Nothing forces you to keep picking paragon or renegade choices. It's every decision for itself. I very much doubt that in real life, any of us ascribes to one "path" only and never mix.
Being a mix of Paragon and Renegade is not losing the RP meaning at all, on the very contrary.

RPG means making your own choices. And our choices and perceptiosn can and should vary from decision to decision. Imo, the one who picks the above paragon line each time without thinking is the one making RP lose its meaning.

In that light, my character was slightly more paragon then renegade and I genuinely felt actually being the character I am playing, which is what RPG is all about.

I agree on that with you, but it still doesn't remove dark (in this case orange) glow from keeping the base. It is what it is ..Renegade option..but is it correct move or not it's up to your game and your own flow of thoughts.

For all means and purposes game maker made it very clear how codex in game perceives that move, which doesn't have to be correct one, but it is one that they implanted into the game as such.

That is the main issue here, one cannot claim that keeping/blowing up base is paragon/renegade when game itself claims that it's opposite.However for your own (or my own) convinience we can believe in whatever we want to in our own game.

Modifié par tariq071, 05 février 2010 - 03:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...

But keeping base is clearly not something that was deemed as positive action by BW and blowing it up is not negative whatsoever.People should do whatever they want in their game , but they should not try to twist it into something that is not, just because they feel so.

And how did you come to the conclusion that Bioware said that keeping the base is "negative"?
You keep assuming that paragon is positive and renegade is negative, which isn't the case.

Either choice is negative or positive depending on perspective. Don't try to impose your opinion as fact, as Bioware said nothing about the issue.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Strongly disagree. Nothing forces you to keep picking paragon or renegade choices. It's every decision for itself. I very much doubt that in real life, any of us ascribes to one "path" only and never mix.
Being a mix of Paragon and Renegade is not losing the RP meaning at all, on the very contrary.

RPG means making your own choices. And our choices and perceptiosn can and should vary from decision to decision. Imo, the one who picks the above paragon line each time without thinking is the one making RP lose its meaning.

In that light, my character was slightly more paragon then renegade and I genuinely felt actually being the character I am playing, which is what RPG is all about.

I agree on that with you, but it still doesn't remove dark (in this case orange) glow from keeping the base. It is what it is ..Renegade option..but is it correct move or not it's up to your game and your own flow of thoughts.

Meeh, I actually prefer orange / red ambiance. It didn't bother me at all. The blue ambiance that came out of no where is actually annoying.

Sure, the choice is renegade. That doesn't mean it's negaitve,, factually speaking.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

How would he betray us? Kill Shepard? Why would he do that? He knows Shepard is essential for humanity's survival.
Decides to side with the reapers? Unless Bioware turns idiotic, that won't happen. TIM knows the REapers are a threat to humanity.

I could actually kind of see it happen if the Reapers made him an offer along lines -- let us take every other species and the humanity gets to live (at least until another culling 50k years down the road). I honestly can't tell if he'd go for gamble like that. I'm also not sure what my Shepard's reaction to that would be, either.

Could make for interesting ME3

[AdamNW]

Garrus wanted to test it

Mordin disagreed

Legion disagreed

[huntrrz]

dan107 wrote...

What's preferable - a galaxy enslaved by humanity with TIM at it's head or a galaxy with life wiped out by the Reapers? (Keeping in mind that if you're not meta-gaming, you DON'T KNOW that it's all going to be ok anyway).

This sounds like a replay of the heretic dilemna - and I answered that by deciding to destroy them.

Were the Prothians "saved" by being turned into mindless Collectors?  What is the difference between the Reapers subjugating the galaxy and TIM subjugating the galaxy?  A few thousand years of human dominance, followed by extinction caused by the stagnation induced by that dominance, IMO.

[tariq071]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And how did you come to the conclusion that Bioware said that keeping the base is "negative"?
You keep assuming that paragon is positive and renegade is negative, which isn't the case.

Either choice is negative or positive depending on perspective. Don't try to impose your opinion as fact, as Bioware said nothing about the issue.

Interesting claim...what Paragon or Renegade means in that case?

MW definition of  Paragon :

-a model or pattern of perfection or excellence
 
MW definition of Renegade:

- One who rejects a religion, cause, allegiance, or group for another; a deserter.

I do not see where it said that Renegade is positive ? Or Paragon being negative.Factually speaking..

Modifié par tariq071, 05 février 2010 - 03:24 .

[Taritu]

Endo322 wrote...

I wish there was a 3rd option where you keep the base but don't hand it to Cerberus.

Guess that's too much to ask though

Yes, that irritated me. I would turn it over to the council given a choice, and, after all, I have the Repear IFF.

[kennyme2]

Considering how Cerberus has epic failed at pretty much every type of super power they tried to acquire (Thorians, Creepers, Rachni) I would not trust them with Reaper technology. Not because they are evil but because they will just get themselves killed, and Shepard needs every person he/she can muster for the fight against the Reapers.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

How would he betray us? Kill Shepard? Why would he do that? He knows Shepard is essential for humanity's survival.
Decides to side with the reapers? Unless Bioware turns idiotic, that won't happen. TIM knows the REapers are a threat to humanity.

I could actually kind of see it happen if the Reapers made him an offer along lines -- let us take every other species and the humanity gets to live (at least until another culling 50k years down the road). I honestly can't tell if he'd go for gamble like that. I'm also not sure what my Shepard's reaction to that would be, either.

Could make for interesting ME3

That would be very boring. I doubt TIM would fall in the same trap as Saren. Not onlyis it repetitive story wise, it's just unlike TIM. TIM probably knows what happened to Saren.
In addition, TIM Is all for human dominance, but I don't think he would put humanity under the reapers for anything.

Interesting claim...what Paragon or Renegade means in that case?

MW definition of  Paragon :

-a model or pattern of perfection or excellence
 
MW definition of Renegade:

- One who rejects a religion, cause, allegiance, or group for another; a deserter.

I do not see where it said that Renegade is positive ? Or Paragon being negative.

You are arguing semantics.
"Excellence" and "perfection" are in the eyes of the beholder. For me, destroying the base is not a sign of perfection or excellence.
As for renegade, clearly even the most renegade Shepard is not one who rejects a cause, or even a religion, oir anything really.
In the game, paragon = idealist. Renegade = whatever gets the job done.

It has nothing to do with what you copy pasted.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 février 2010 - 03:28 .