416 réponses à ce sujet

[Taritu]

And, oh please. Cerberus is humanity, and Cerberus should rule humanity for it's own good, and humanity should be over the other races--that's Tim's belief system



My paragon doesn't believe any of that. Hell, not sure even my Renegade believes all of that. I'm not into humanity uber alles. Sorry. The council may be idiots, but they still stand for cooperation and peaceful coexistence, and that's what I believe in. Not in humans ruling aliens.

[tariq071]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You are arguing semantics.
"Excellence" and "perfection" are in the eyes of the beholder. For me, destroying the base is not a sign of perfection or excellence.
As for renegade, clearly even the most renegade Shepard is not one who rejects a cause, or vene a religion, oir anything really.
In the game, paragon = idealist. Renegade = whatever gets the job done.

It has nothing to do with what you copy pasted.

Frankly , you are the one arguing semantics right now...game gives you Renegade for keeping base, something that you denied earlier. Now you are arguing that definitions of certain words have to be twisted in the ways that suits you best :blink:At least i took time to "copy/paste"(sigh) something before i claimed that i know meaning of it.

You can make of it whatever you want in your game , but you cannot claim that everything is misconcepted and miswritten just because it doesn't agree with what you wanted to  be.Just your definition of Renegade makes my skin crawl, seriously...

I don't really see anymore reason to even attempt debating with you any further since you are really entrenched in one view and one view only.And i definitelly cannot comprehend what is with that "me First" issue that you are keep pursuing( and there is definitelly some serious issue with that)...

Good luck

Modifié par tariq071, 05 février 2010 - 03:39 .

[allankles]

This was a fairly easy choice for me. Even with my mostly Paragon character I almost instantly agreed with TIM once I heard his proposal. An opportunity to actually study the Reapers, their entire constitution vs destroying everything and starting from scratch with nothing.



From a realists stand point it made too much sense to keep the base intact, it was ground zero for Reaper evolution. So what if humans lost their lives inside it? So what if TIM wants to use it to further Cerberus' power? To me TIM is by far the lesser evil.

[The Quarian Sympathizer]

I'm on my 2nd playthrough and plan on destroying it this time.

Yeah I kept it even though I'm sure TIM will get mad with power and will do more than just "secure humanity's foothold in the galaxy."

[allankles]

Also my Shepard doesn't really care for TIM's Human Empire ideas, and I tell him as much in the end. Saving the base is not black or white. You keep the base, afterall Ceberus were the only guys on the Collector trail.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tariq071 wrote...
Frankly , you are the one arguing semantics right now...game gives you Renegade for keeping base, something that you denied earlier. Now you are arguing that definitions of certain words have to be twisted in the ways that suits you best :blink:At least i took time to "copy/paste"(sigh) something before i claimed that i know meaning of it.

You can make of it whatever you want in your game , but you cannot claim that everything is misconcepted and miswritten just because it doesn't agree with what you wanted to  be.

I don't really see anymore reason to even attempt debating with you any further since you are really entrenched in one view and one view only.And i definitelly cannot comprehend what is with that "me First" issue that you are keep pursuing( and there is definitelly some serious issue with that)...

Good luck

Sigh. Where did I ever say that the choice of keeping the base isn't renegade? Where? Show me. I told you a million times that I do not care what they call it.

I am not arguing about the definition of the word. I am arguing how they are used. For a Krogan, a paragon is one who loves to fight and is ruthless. For a Salarian, a paragon is probably one who excells intellectually. For a Turian, it's one who is discplined. Even amongst human cultures, who is a paragon varies from culture to culture.It's not set in stone.
And I just showed you that a "renegade Shepard" in the game is not one who rejects a cause, a religion or anything. A renegade is one who would do anythign to save the galaxy, even if he has to be ruthless and mean. Many renegade dialogue choices say that he does that because he is a military commander. How does that fit into the definition?
The way Bioware uses the 2 words is not based upon their literal meaning, as they themselves said (countless times they explained what a paragon and a renegade are in the game, which isn't what you copy pasted). You are reading too much into the paragon / renegade divide.

You keep putting words in my mouth. So yes, it's impossible to discuss anythign with you.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 février 2010 - 03:48 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That would be very boring. I doubt TIM would fall in the same trap as Saren. Not onlyis it repetitive story wise, it's just unlike TIM. TIM probably knows what happened to Saren.
In addition, TIM Is all for human dominance, but I don't think he would put humanity under the reapers for anything.

It's somewhat different. Saren was trying to strike deal with Reapers while hoping (without any real basis for it) that Reapers would use the organic species rather than simply harvest them once he shows them how useful the organics can be. Which was hardly an alternative anyone would be willing to accept. But what i'm talking about is clear-cut deal from the Reapers -- they take others and leave humanity entirely on their own as long as humans don't try to interfere. No slavery, no funny modifications business.

It's then a gamble for TIM between trusting the Reapers (who don't actually have reason to lie as 50k years makes little difference to them or at least they're arrogant enough to think so) in hope the extra time helps him to prepare, or --suspecting it's just attempt to divive and conquer-- try to fight knowing if he fails it's all over. He's pragmatic enough i think he'd at least consider his options.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That would be very boring. I doubt TIM would fall in the same trap as Saren. Not onlyis it repetitive story wise, it's just unlike TIM. TIM probably knows what happened to Saren.
In addition, TIM Is all for human dominance, but I don't think he would put humanity under the reapers for anything.

It's somewhat different. Saren was trying to strike deal with Reapers while hoping (without any real basis for it) that Reapers would use the organic species rather than simply harvest them once he shows them how useful the organics can be. Which was hardly an alternative anyone would be willing to accept. But what i'm talking about is clear-cut deal from the Reapers -- they take others and leave humanity entirely on their own as long as humans don't try to interfere. No slavery, no funny modifications business.

It's then a gamble for TIM between trusting the Reapers (who don't actually have reason to lie as 50k years makes little difference to them or at least they're arrogant enough to think so) in hope the extra time helps him to prepare, or --suspecting it's just attempt to divive and conquer-- try to fight knowing if he fails it's all over. He's pragmatic enough i think he'd at least consider his options.

"I have been promised a reprieve from the inevitable" - Saren.
I think he actually did strike a "deal" with Sovereign.

It would take alot of trusting from TIM to believe the Reapers, and I suspect he is very suspicious in nature. I am not actually sure that the Reapers would do that in the first place. I mean, if they can take out everyone else, why wouldn't they take out humanity with them?

It's possible, but highely unlikely. And story wise, I wouldn't like it, as it's too....meeeh cliche (not that it matters to Bioware, but still). 

[KnightofPhoenix]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...
I agree with you, paragon/renegade shouldnt be taken by dictionary definition, by that definition a renagade would never be in the Marines much less get to the rank of Lt. Commander (Army Major).

I just think that BW chose those words for marketing purposes (because they sounded unique), actually the way I see it is:

Renegade= Pragmatist = A practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems.
Paragon= Idealist= one that places ideals before practical considerations

http://www.merriam-w...com/dictionary/

Precisely.
I think Bioware chose Renegade / paragon to avoid using "good" / "evil" or light / dark. And yet people still manage to consider paragon as necessarily positive and renegade as necessarily negative.

In that regard, DA:O is a million times superior to ME, since it doesn't use a scale at all.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"I have been promised a reprieve from the inevitable" - Saren.
I think he actually did strike a "deal" with Sovereign.

I always took it as deal that Saren would be individually spared for his co-operation which obviously wasn't much incentive for me as i wasn't included in that   However if deal was offered for the whole humanity then it'd kind of go me "hmm". It's obviously a renegade route but then TIM doesn't strike me as much of a paragon character.

As for why the Reapers would do that -- if ME2 is any indication they do seem to take greater interest in humans than in the other species now, and i don't think we're really that worth harvesting at this point when we're barely past the point of spaceflight. Give it some time to grow and we might come up with something innovative rather than rehash of what everyone else in the galaxy is doing.

Anyway i guess we'll see. Personally i wouldn't like much to see the alternative of "you have to gather the armies to face the darkspawn Reaper threat" because well, been there and done that too and more recently than ME1.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 février 2010 - 04:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"I have been promised a reprieve from the inevitable" - Saren.
I think he actually did strike a "deal" with Sovereign.

I always took it as deal that Saren would be individually spared for his co-operation which obviously wasn't much incentive for me as i wasn't included in that   However if deal was offered for the whole humanity then it'd kind of go me "hmm". It's obviously a renegade route but then TIM doesn't strike me as much of a paragon character.

As for why the Reapers would do that -- if ME2 is any indication they do seem to take greater interest in humans than in the other species now, and i don't think we're really that worth harvesting at this point when we're barely past the point of spaceflight. Give it some time to grow and we might come up with something innovative rather than rehash of what everyone else in the galaxy is doing.

Anyway i guess we'll see. Personally i wouldn't like much to see the alternative of "you have to gather the armies to face the darkspawn Reaper threat" because well, been there and done that too and more recently than ME1.

Well they were trying to make a human reaper already. But yea, I guess we will have to wait and see.

I personally wouldn't mind the "gather all armies and kill". Simply because the choices of the army are delt with in ME1 and ME2, rather than in one game. Granted, it should be more than just gathering armies. But an epic space battle as a distraction, while you are off doing whatever it is you are supposed to do to defeat them, would be cool imo.
Wouldn't mind an ending where humans become reapers or something though, by collaborating with the Reapers. Or maybe even replacing them. I wouldn't do that in my "real" playthrough, but it's good to have options.

[KnightofPhoenix]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

KorPhaeron11 wrote...
I agree with you, paragon/renegade shouldnt be taken by dictionary definition, by that definition a renagade would never be in the Marines much less get to the rank of Lt. Commander (Army Major).

I just think that BW chose those words for marketing purposes (because they sounded unique), actually the way I see it is:

Renegade= Pragmatist = A practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems.
Paragon= Idealist= one that places ideals before practical considerations

http://www.merriam-w...com/dictionary/

Precisely.
I think Bioware chose Renegade / paragon to avoid using "good" / "evil" or light / dark. And yet people still manage to consider paragon as necessarily positive and renegade as necessarily negative.

In that regard, DA:O is a million times superior to ME, since it doesn't use a scale at all.

I loved that about DAO, I said earlier in the tread about choosing seemingly "good" choices in the game doest always lead to good solutions, example: the Bhelen/Harrowmont  choice, a the good choice is Harrowmont and later to side with Caradin, but if you go that route it turns out very bad

I loved that  

The Bhelen / Harrowmont issue is orgasm material, put bluntly.

[DTKT]

I FINALLY GET IT.



Quads because Krogans have four balls.



God, it took me sooo long to figure that one out.

[AEmer]

I actually figured that since I have the only IFF that can get me through the omega relay aboard my ship, and since I trusted that TIM's recommended action would indeed wipe out the collector threat, detonating a radiation pulse (from which the normandy was heavily shielded) and figuring out what to do with the base at a later date was a prefferable idea. And worst case scenario, the normandy would always be able to sneak back in and bust the place up.

I was angry with the resolution the teammates gave me....I was angry that I appeared to be handing the damn thing over to cerberous. So angry that I redid the mission and chose differently.

I honestly felt the choice before the final boss wasn't communicated to me properly.

And here's the kicker...I was playing as a paragon. I mean, if I were just killing everything with collector technology in it, I should kill grunt too.

Perhaps the most important argument that came to mind was that I would need concrete proof to convince the citadel council that the reaper threat to the systems alliance was real. Destroying the base would perhaps be a more decisive victory, but it might well end up being phyrric - so I still think leaving the base intact was the right thing to do, even from a paragons point of view.

You wouldn't obliterate a jewish concentration camp from world war 2 where unethical science experiments took place. You would preserve it, and attempt to figure out what went on in order to probable war crimminals. You would build a memorial. You would try to give whatever was left of the dead bodies a proper burial. And you would take the blood-stained research and preserve it - find out what it was, what happened, allow future historians to document the darker sides of the humans of our time. You might even use it if it could help save lives, as some of the most unethical **** research actually does to this day.

Honestly, blowing the thing up seemed more rash and renegade when I was making the choice =P Sure, it'd get the job done, but at what cost?

[Jeremy Winston]

I wouldn't worry about convincing the council. Keep in mind that they have their heads in the sand, but in ME1, you managed to convince them that Saren was a traitor based on total heresay. That is, you gave them a 10 second recording (not even visual) extracted from a destroyed Geth. And all this was on the say-so of a no-name Quarian.

(Of course, this also says to not push logic too far into the game, as it'll break!)

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 06 février 2010 - 01:21 .

[AEmer]

Well, I'm of the opinion that logic should be used to draw implications from the narrative of the game in such a manner that it means I have to use as little suspension of disbelief as possible. If the logic is applied correctly by both myself and the development team, then the story generally won't break.



But this approach also means that those implications need to be factored into the story, just like other, more spelled out facts.



You mention mass effect 1... firstly, i would argue that ME1 is a different game, and that the devs are allowed a bit of leeway to redo facts, elements and characters such that they are different in the two games. Obviously, they haven't done outright retcons here, but they might have by implication - and that's ok. So even supposing that you're right, and that deductive logic can't be applied too far without breaking the narrative, I would argue that the first strands of inference to be shrugged off should be those using events from mass effect 1 to interpret those happening in mass effect 2. In other words, if the council's behavior in mass effect 2 leads you to believe one thing, and the councils behavior in mass effect 1 leads you to believe another, for the purpose of projecting the concequences of choices in mass effect 2, I would want to either rely on an amalgam of the council from both games, or go with the ME2 one.



That said, I don't even believe that going with just the council from ME2 is necessary to see that the council wants concrete evidence to take action. With a bit of imagination, it's totally possible to explain the behavior of the council from ME1 and ME2 in a consistent way that supports this point.



With regards to Saren, not only is the accusation a lot less fundamental (the galaxy must've had a number of rogue spectres, but noone has ever successfully argued that the galaxy was under threat from extragalactic invaders), but, well, Shepard basically argued that he had his hands on concrete evidence when talking to the council rather than hearsay after getting Tali's audio recording.



Consider that Shepard never actually saw Saren shoot another Spectre, a dockworker did, and while the evidence could not be mere coincidence (why would an eden prime dockworker accuse a spectre?!), it was still mere accusation from an untrustworthy person.



But after getting Tali's recording...We don't know how forensic science has advanced, but the evidence surrounding the recording is pretty clear; there's been a major shootout aboard the citadel itself, there's dead bodies that can be traced to distinct sources, and so on. Clearly, Saren felt the evidence was damning enough that he didn't simply leave it alone. Whether it actually was is a good question, but his actions in trying to stop it are traceable; perhaps he didn't know exactly what was on that recording, but we know that he acted to try and hide it, and that, coupled with the recording itself, and the forensic narrative that can be constructed from those two together, is a lot more clear than one lone dockworkers observation.



What we see Shepard do is step forward and argue in favor of the evidence, but he doesn't necessarily provide it in the brief interlude; the council obviously takes his word for it, at least initially, but there's plenty of evidence in the game that the council is briefed in detail about Shepards missions, and that extensive analysis is applied. That's why they can confront you about what happened on a mission even though you haven't briefed them, for example.



So it's safe to assume that the council would have C-Sec go over the recording, verify it's integrity as well as possible, and if it turned out to be doctored, they'd revoke Shepards spectre status. In other words, they can initially trust that Shepard wouldn't turn the recording over without it being legit, because they'll come back and verify it later. If Shepard turns out to have tricked them, good, they're rid of a rogue Spectre; if he's right, they took actions against Saren as quickly as possible. Either way, being openly suspicious of Shepard as he plays the recording for them doesn't serve any purpose.



So you can't assume, based on ME1 and ME2, that the council can be convinced of the reaper threat by anything other than a smoking gun (because Tali's recording, after it's been examined, taken together with a clear forensic narrative tied to saren, might have been clear-cut enough to be a smoking gun); such a smoking gun exists only in one place in the entire bloody galaxy, and that's beyond the omega relay.



Everything else in the game could theoretically be Geth or Protean remnants working alone (or the utility of old artifacts), but the collector base has everything; a reaper larvae, evidence of genetic tampering with the proteans, evidence of indoctrination, evidence of experimental harvesting of many different species, evidence that the proteans were being used to manufacture something they did not themselves have the technology to manufacture (that was also being actively researched and developed!), and so on.



Even the reaper orbiting the brown dwarf wouldn't be as compelling evidence. Sure, it would obviously be recognized as being the same as sovereign, but there's no evidence that the geth didn't simply find sovereign adrift in space and repair it; no evidence of a coming cataclysm, or of reapers beyond sovereign and the derelict reaper. The collector base, on the other hand, has the evidence necessary. And even if the council aren't convinced by it, the threat of it going to anyone _but_ the systems alliance is so large that they would _have_ to listen.



End of the day...keeping the base around as a bargaining chip, as proof of the reapers existence...more responsible than blowing it up.

[Jeremy Winston]

I'm not going to argue the merits of blowing up or saving the base. I've very much enjoyed the various points of view this thread has presented and am excited that a mere game has sparked such controversy.

I disagree, though, that the base is the only 'smoking gun' you have.

The Citadel is full of the same crime elements as in any other society, as you can see from the large C-Sec presense. If they are willing to accept a recording from a Quarian they know nothing about (with as much investigation or analysis as you please), then I find it hard to thing they would not accept the Normandy's logs and recordings, as well as eyewitness accounts (the crew).

Granted, the information will be seen as coming from Cerberus, and will be taken with a grain of salt. Still, it should be compelling.

Furthermore, the base, alone, is not proof. Just as you showed a logical train of though about the derelict reaper, someone with sufficient motivation to ignore the truth will simply posit that the Collectors are working with the Geth to recreate Sovereign. There is nothing to indicate that there are a zillion of them out there. Just that the Geth, using Collector technology, are now able use organics to create the 'master ship.'

Now, for the sake of argument, let's assume that the base is sufficient in and of itselt to convince the council. It's gone, if you blow it up. But, there are, supposedly, thousands of years of wrecks littering the core where races have tried to pass through the Omega-4 relay. You think that has only been in the recent post-Prothean time? There might be equipment and technology dating back hundreds of thousands of years. That is also compelling evidence in and of itself.

But, back to my original point of don't take logic too far. My personal belief, in a real universe with these events, that the Reapers would have had many other methods to regain access to the galaxy. In fact, I suspect they have access to many galaxies. Look at it from their point of view.

We, that is all organic life, are their food. They consume us for reproductive purposes. In short, they farm us. Our entire galaxy is simply one large field in an organic farm. Every 50,000 or so years, they come to harvest us. Would they really bank everything on a single, secret, mass-relay in the Citadel? Would they really not have any subtle indoctrination operating on the Citadel or other places to help control the organic food-stuff? (Not enough to impair higher functions, but enough to exert subtle control?)

In fact, I formed a theory that the Shadow Broker actually is directly connected to the Reapers, and he (or it) uses his information network to buy and sell information that moves the galactic civilization along the proper paths. Since I've read the first issue of the comic, I've had to rethink it, but still, I would expect more control systems for the Reapers in a real universe.

Anyhow, my general point is that this is a game. It's a great game with a compelling story. But, when you try to justify or argue against decisions based on multi-tier ripple effects through the game universe, the universe is rarely consistent enough to lend itself to that sort of analysis.

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 06 février 2010 - 02:19 .

[Mooner911]

Endo322 wrote...
I wish there was a 3rd option where you keep the base but don't hand it to Cerberus.
Guess that's too much to ask though

I have no doubt Shep text'd the Collector base coords to the Alliance. Cerb and Alliance will duke it out for the scraps while Mordin de-bugs the Normandy and Shep sails into the Reaper sunrise. Stay tuned...

[AEmer]

Jeremy

I agree with you that the thread has been interesting, and that the fact that we're discussing this, rather than discussing the concept of the smoke monster from Lost in another forum (for example), is a great example of this game making a case for serious fandom, on par with the most fandom'y stuff other media has to offer. That is to say, I, too, am excited that a mere game has sparked such controversy.



That said...yes, this is a fictional universe, but as I said earlier, when I explore a fictional universe, I play a game of "fill out the blanks". I deduce, and unless or until I arrive at something that can't be explained away, I presume that the universe is consistent. I know...the moment that it turns out to be inconsistent on a fundamental level (which sometimes occurs with fiction), I've set myself up for quite the bummer...but till that point, I can happily think away without succumbing to disbelief. If I _do_ come upon an inconsistency, i adapt my approach - can the inconsistency be isolated away, leaving the rest of the fiction intact ? (this is the case if you do Jacobs loyalty mission after the suicide mission and Miranda died...guess who pops back from the grave to tell everyone she wanted to keep an old promise?)

And if it can't be isolated and thought of as an error, can a better approach to the fiction, one that doesn't make the inconsistency apparent, be used?



Your stance - that the fictional universe isn't consistent enough that it lends itself to much more than superficial analysis and first-tier deductions - seems far more guarded than mine.

If this is how you generally approach fiction...well, you probably get less bummed by inconsistencies than I do. But there isn't a lot to say about it here; your perception of what is part of the fiction and what isn't is simply different from mine. Both ways of perceiving fiction are completely valid, so unless we presume one type of perception for sake of argument, we probably can't reach a consensus.



...If it isn't your general approach, and the Mass Effect fictional universe (and the mass effect 2 universe in particular) has somehow given you reason to be more hesitant than normal, I'd love to know of it.



Assuming you're generally not guarded, and your argument on consistency hinges on the proceeding where Saren was declared rogue...well, what you've mentioned - that the evidence necessary to get the council to recognize Saren as a rogue spectre was so light so as to be inconsistent with their stance that sovereign was merely an advanced Geth construct - simply doesn't (necessarily) appear inconsistent to me.



For instance, Tali's recording might use a particular kind of wireless encryption key allowing the council to verify that it was recorded before Shepard even went to Eden Prime. We certainly know Tali is an expert at tech and that this kind of technology is possible and likely used aboard the citadel (I'm a computer scientist by trade...a type of public/private encryption allows this type of verification..authenticity is rather easy, but the other parts of encryption are much harder ), so given that she had enabled it when she recorded, given a valid timestamp and location, so on and on... a mere voice recording, if taken in context with enough valid and verifiable metadata, and if high enough in bandwidth, could be completely bulletproof evidence with complete chain of custody.



As for whether the collector base is the only smoking gun, and whether it's a smoking gun at all...well, if you feel that the discussion is academic and uninteresting because it doesn't really relate to your experience of the mass effect universe anyway, I don't want you to feel any obligation to provide a counterpart for me to argue it with (something I'll (rather rudely?) accomplish by not responding to it, at least not right now XD)... but if you do find it interesting, I'll get back to you on the points you made

[Jeremy Winston]

AEmer,

Oh, I find it all very interesting and would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

I also strive to fill in the blanks, and, in many cases, I'm able to come up with a consistent whole, if left to my own devices. But, then I'll come across some throw-away line of dialog (or Codex entry) that blows my fill-in sky high.

My (as you see it) jaded attitude comes from 30+ years of RPGs where I made the wrong decisions because I took a decision based on known facts about the universe and was proven to be wrong due to something that I felt was flagrantly inconsistent about the universe. In most cases, it was simply due to lousy writing. So, I now take every fact with a grain of salt. It doesn't reduce my playtime enjoyment, but prevents me from making decisions based on third and fourth-level consequences because I can't trust myself to come up with those based on the presented universe.

Now, before I get too far into it, let me explain that I enjoyed ME2 more than ME1, because I thought the story was more... intense and cinematic, and whatever. I didn't like the shift from RPG to Shooter, but I adapted and enjoyed the game all the same. So, please don't take any of the following to be complaints about the game mechanics or Bioware's gameplay decisions. These are just examples of problems I found in the logical integrity of the universe.

I also want to apologe to BioWare in advance (although I doubt they'll read this).  I love the game and have no regrets.  It's hard to write, especially with all the diverging paths you allow.  My only point is to explain why I feel that no RPG game universe (and ME in particular) can be completely defined enough to allow deep analysis on decisions.  

I realize that these are just my little irritations and other either will simply disagree or somehow think around them.

The ME universe is, in my mind, OUR universe but in the far-flung future. Thus, I assume that the laws of physics hold.

ME1 presented a few concepts that needed suspension of disbelief, and I didn't have a problem with it, because they didn't work hard to explain it. Which was good.

1) The mass effect in general. Ok. I'll buy into that.
2) No fuel for ships. Ok.. they needed fuel, but it just wasn't a game dynamic.
3) No ammo reloads. This was explained as some magical computer calculating mass needed and shaving micro particles and mass accelerating them. Ok. Since it was based on ME fields, I'll just accept it.
4) Biotics. If I accept ME as using electricity to create fields, then the concept of training a bio-feedback kinda thing was believable.

As for the story, the Reapers were just a big monster mystery. We never knew their motivations, so no consistency was required.

As for the Council believing Tali's recording... I just had to accept that they did. Anything software can do or protect, software can be used to duplicate or emulate. From the storyline, once we heard the recording, we immediately went to the council with it. Udina left the office, and we can immediately go to the Council chambers and discover that they now completely believe Saren's a traitor. No evidence that analysis was done on the recording.

Even if we ignore that and assume they did perform analysis, you'd be hard pressed to convince me that they could truly verify anything other than she got it from a Geth memory core. That doesn't mean it wasn't planted.

Jumping aheard for a moment... If the universe dictates that they accept that recording, I now have problems with the council, in ME2 NOT accepting more first-hand info from the logs and crew of the Normandy regarding the base, even if they are Cerberus affiliated. The information is still coming from someone they reinstated as a Spectre.

Now, back to the universe.

ME2 came along. I bring my ME1 universe concept with me.

1) They raise me from the dead using some sort of cybernetics to recharge and reactive everything. Uh... Ok! I'll accept that. It wasn't easy. I postulated they needed a quick two years to go by without Shepard being mobile. Why death? Why not coma? I still don't know. Maybe marketing?
2) Thermal clips. I'm willing to accept that as a simply gameplay mechanic change. In fact, I'm willing to accept it without the universe requiring it, because I understand the affect it has on gameplay and that can be the only reason the change was made.
3) They provide us with more of a Reaper back story and provide some of their motivations.

Within an hour of playing, my sense of logic and universal consistency was thrown to the wind. Two things:

1) In the prelude, Jacob tells me how messed up my body was, due to being exposed, and how much tissue damage there was. Up to this point, I assumed I had been (conveniently) cryogenically frozen in space vacuum or something. But, now I know that I had significant cell damage. How could they really bring me back and retain my personality and memories with all the supposed brain damage I suffered? Perhaps it was a failure on my account, but I could NOT accept it.

2) Because I'm anal about stuff like this, I immediately read through all the Codex entries. There was one where they actually tried to rationalize going to Thermal Clips. Recall that the Geth had determined that Thermal Clips allowed a gun to continue firing for a greater percentage of the time, this sending more damage and terror at the target. Now, perhaps for the shooter experts out there, it made sense, but in MY style of play, I am able to generate far more ammo down range using the old method. Thermal clips didn't reload all that fast, and I was LIMITED in total ammo I could use, unless I was 'lucky' enough to find more. (Note, also, to compensate, you ended up finding thermal clips just sitting around and not just from kills you'd made.)

Both of these universal inconsistencies (as I saw them) were due to the writers attempting to explain how they worked. Perhaps I'm too inflexible and you were able to noodle around it to come up with another, consistent universe. I was unable. Still, they were minor issues and didn't affect my enjoyment of the game.

What it does do, however, is prevent me from making complex decisions (such as saving the collector base) based on my knowledge of the game universe because I can no longer trust the universe to 'make sense.' So, while the first level of "there might be something good here" is easy, it becomes harder to decide if the "chance of something bad" or whether "EDI scanned the base" is sufficient. Can I trust TIM?  If he goes rogue, can I stop him? What would the universe be like if Cerberous took control?  Will he deal with the Reapers?  Will I end up with a universe with both TIM and the Reapers?   How might that work?  Is it worth it?  Is it better? And, most importantly, will Repear technology saved from the base give me low cost frictionless materials to so I can get rid of Thermal Clips? Then, trying to decide if the information available in either scenario is enough to convince the council becomes even more complex, because I can't trust the clues to the natural workings of the universe, because I can't trust the writers to have truly thought it through.

Now for the Reapers.  We are given motivation.  We're a giant galactic farm.  I had trouble believing that there wouldn't be more controls in place.  Even if you posit that they needed organics to develop naturally so they could become intelligent enough to populate the galaxy (and thus be enough for Reaper reproduction/feeding/whatever), more controls would have been in place.  If you posit that they didn't would require that we consider them too arrogant to think we would ever be a threat.  And they ARE arrogant, but not stupid.  But that also means that we are the very first galactic civilization to get this far with them.  Each step is harder to swallow.

And, how about this indoctronation thing?  How come there hasn't been a single mention of an attempt to figure out how it worked and combat it?  It defies logic that TIM would ignore that.  Yet, there were no attempts to protect the crew on the Derelict Reaper or even sensors to study the effect if it did happen. 

Mordin magically combated the swarm thingies, even though I never saw that we received an example the the toxin or how they detected us.  And how did he suddenly gain a sample of one of the swarms that we see in the cut scene before the Horizon mission?  I can only fill in so many blanks before I decide that the writers simply didn't think about it.  And if they didn't thnk about that, then what else didn't they think about that's going to surprise me later?

Finally, let's look at malleability. In ME 1, there were cases where you were always right, or always wrong, regardless of the decision. If you kill the Rachni Queen, the Thurian counceller accuses you of genocide. If you save her, he tells you it was a foolish move. That may be the only one, as I can't think of any more, but what does that do to consistency? I realize, metagaming, that the purpose was to keep the pressure on the player and that anything else (other than endorsing either killing or saving the queen) would be the writers endorsing an action, which they want to avoid.

PS...  Explain to me why the entire ME1 story even occurred?  Why doesn't Saren simply go back to the Citadel, kill the council, take over the Mass Relays, and let Sovereign in... game over.  Why did he need the Geth again?  Why did he need the Conduit?  He HAD access to the Citadel.

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 07 février 2010 - 03:21 .

[AEmer]

Just to make sure my memory wasn't faulty (it turned out I misremembered a few things), I found a let's play and snatched up the conversations we're talking about...I've timestamped the links where appropriate, so it should make for a quick listen :



This is how the council reacts to the accusations about Saren working with the Geth:





Here's the hearing on Sarens guilt, based on the Eden Prime incident:





This is Tali's evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bdlIe7prg&feature=related#t=2m0s



This is udina's presentation to the council:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrhItRKqdn0&feature=related#t=9m50s



This is how the council feels about the reapers when they first hear of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBWV2CdiYbI&feature=related



First conclusion...my former argument about authenticity doesn't make sense. Data recovered from "hostile" hardware is, generally, impossible to verify as authentic, at least with todays technology. Only data from trusted hardware works as forensics evidence, quantum encryption being the sole exception that comes to mind. Since the entire thing comes from the bloody geth, there's no trusted hardware involved, and authenticity can't be proven by normal means...unless quantum encryption has somehow been developed by the geth in such a form that it can be applied to analog audio.



So...can the evidence be explained in such a manner that it wouldn't possibly be a plant job without stretching things? Well...



We don't now what happened to the Geth memory core, but if it was still around and turned over to C-Sec as part of the evidence, just prior to the player walking in on Udina's presentation (after all, we don't know exactly what Tali gives Udina), then perhaps the audio banks were quantum encrypted and relied on an atomic (hardware) time stamp. The Mass Effect universe does have a fair bit of quantum technology...EDI is hosted in a quantum bluebox, the illusive man uses quantum entanglement for FTL communication...

Tali does explicitly say that she extracted the audio from the Geth cores' audio banks, implying some sort of dedicated audio holding unit. And the Geth would need some way of verifying data, due to the way they share it, at the hardware level, to make sure no "memory" is ever checked in that may have been falsified...particularly since the Quarians would undoubtedly have tried to use doctored memory as an attack vector during the morning war.



This is obviously conjecture, but supposing that the Geth core has the correct hardware layout, it may be possible to verify that the audio was recorded by a fully functioning Geth mobile platform, at the time Tali said it was.



But supposing all of these things...Edi would obviously have the same kind of equipment aboard, being a state of the art AI. Since it goes both ways...yes. If Tali's evidence on Saren was, indeed, irrefutable, as one of the councilors says, then the normandy mk. 2's evidence would be equally irrefutable.



So...assuming consistency with ME1...there is a smoking gun even if you destroy the station. So uhm...I rest your case? =P



As for malleability.. if you think of the ME1 possessing different quantum states, that is, states that are mutually exclusive, then the game only needs to be consistent with the road that you go down, not the other possible roads. Of course...with the example you mention, it could also just be that the turian counselor is an unfair ass, but both are viable without destroying consistency within an individual narrative.



As for the reapers arrogance...the reason we were the first civilization to make it this far is because of the protheans thinking outside of the box. If the reapers are arrogant enough to think that they have anticipated everything, and then they turn out not to have anticipated everything, that's stupidity through arrogance...and if the cycle really has repeated itself a thousand times or more, then it wouldn't be a big surprise if, eventually, a civilization would be remarkable enough to think beyond what the reapers expected. That civilization isn't us...it's the protheans But that doesn't mean we've won...the reapers are obviously extremely adaptable, and they still have a massive armada of dreadnoughts. The fact that they have to fight us a bit...it might not be _that_ big of a deal to them. They'll still win hands down...if nothing else goes wrong for them, anyway =P



The indoctrination...phew, beats me. Who knows if someones tried to combat it, tried to monitor it. According to the books, it's certainly been studied in the case of sovereign, and Saren did try to understand it in ME1. I do find it inconsistent that TIM wanted the collector base but didn't care for the derelict reaper. Perhaps he knew something we don't. Perhaps he didn't have the manpower for that kind of an operation. It's definitely an oddity, no matter how i look at it, that it hasn't been a bigger deal, but I think that's that.



As for Mordin combatting the swarm thingies, getting a bug to test on? Seems like something was left out. I think something was probably planned for it though, he does mention, at some point, that he would like additional collector samples. Maybe something was recovered from Zhu's Hope though, along with Veetor?



Heheh and the entire ME1 story...well, he did use the conduit to send a legion of Krogan and Geth through to the citadel. Not sure he could've simply smuggled those guys onto the presidium without anyone noticing =P And clearly, Sovereign wouldn't have made it onto the citadel tower without the citadel being under Sarens control in the first place. At least, I think that's the dea =P

[this isnt my name]

How woulf TIM get there, I only remember 1 Reaper IFF, I would give it to the flotilla, to the quarian on the citadel for her pilgrimage.

[Jeremy Winston]

My point about the malleability is that it is possible that every solution is right. Destroying the collector base is right in the resulting base-free universe, but that saving it is right in the base-saved universe. Likewise, both might be wrong in their associated universes. So, again, how can you apply logic to which is the proper decision when the metagame affects the universe?

As for ME1, I don't think he needed a legion of Geth or Krogren. He took over the mass relay system, locks out the Alliance and other fleets, locks out the controls to close the Citadel, allows Sovereign to come through the relay, game over. If he really needed Geth to protect him while he did all that, you had their trick on Noveria where they were smuggled in as parts. I'm sure Saren, as a Spectre, could have had anything brough into the Citadel without inspection.

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 08 février 2010 - 03:41 .