416 réponses à ce sujet

[Neuzhelin]

Cerberus + Indoctrination = bad.

[D3thray]

Neuzhelin wrote...

Cerberus + Indoctrination = bad.

Anyone else + Indoctrination = good?

Risks are risks.  I thought it was an acceptable risk.

[SDNcN]

Adanu wrote...

Um... since when does *all* reaper tech suddenly indoctrinate? We know that the ships do, and that those husk devices do. Thats *it*. Even then, TIM is NOT an idiot, contrary to what most people seem to think. If I were him, the first thing you should do is strap multiple nukes to that base in case it really *does* have indoctrination fields in it... then put in failsafes so that if one is tampered with, the whole base would go boom.

You people are acting as if Cerberus and IM are a bunch of idiots. If they were, the Alliance would have caught them by now.

Err it isn't about the tech turning against us unknowningly.

It is about Cerberus gaining the ability to to use that technology on other species and even humans.
They don't exactly have a good track record for caring about what happens to average people. Just look at Jack's loyality Mission or that they murdered 40 Marines just to collect data on Thresher Maws if you use the Sole Survivor background.

Modifié par SDNcN, 03 février 2010 - 09:17 .

[pelhikano]

Actually, isn't the only proof that Reapers were even involved in the abductions that base? Apart from a couple of recordings I mean. The council was meanwhile happily ignoring everything to do with Reapers even after the Battle of the Citadel. With the base intact there's very tangible proof that this thing actually exists. And, you can still blow it up later, nobody is alive on there now!

[Quillan666]

marshalleck wrote...

It's not just "advanced technology." It's freaking Reaper technology. The kind of technology that only Reapers understand. The kind of technology that is known for its ability to twist organic beings into husks or mindless, indoctrinated thralls.

Even parts of Reaper technology are dangerous. You install an IFF on the Normandy, and it contains viruses that overpower the system defenses and get the entire crew captured. Too dangerous to keep.

[Offkorn]

Do note that only the Normandy can currently travel through the Relay and even reach the base....



I don't think Cerberus will have much luck duplicating the Reaper IFF since it nearly overloaded the Normandy (which has an actual AI on board).

[Adanu]

SDNcN wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Um... since when does *all* reaper tech suddenly indoctrinate? We know that the ships do, and that those husk devices do. Thats *it*. Even then, TIM is NOT an idiot, contrary to what most people seem to think. If I were him, the first thing you should do is strap multiple nukes to that base in case it really *does* have indoctrination fields in it... then put in failsafes so that if one is tampered with, the whole base would go boom.

You people are acting as if Cerberus and IM are a bunch of idiots. If they were, the Alliance would have caught them by now.

Err it isn't about the tech turning against us unknowningly.

It is about Cerberus gaining the ability to to use that technology on other species and even humans.
They don't exactly have a good track record for caring about what happens to average people. Just look at Jack's loyality Mission or that they murdered 40 Marines just to collect data on Thresher Maws if you use the Sole Survivor background.

Sometimes you have to do unpleasant things to get things done right.

That said, Jacks mission is explained well if you actually pay attention and if you talk to Miranda. There is *nothing* in game that says that IM authorized what they did to Jack. They was entirely the fault of the team involved, which suggests that the people he picked for the project were insane to start with.

As for Sole Survivor, we only have Toombs word of any of that ,and he may just be mildly insane himself.

That being said... if Cerberus abuses the power that technology allows, my Shepard is going after them. The Reapers will be childs play compared to what I will doing to him. It's one thing to use harsh methods to achieve great results, it's quite another to go on a power trip. I think IM understands this.

Quillan666 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It's not just "advanced technology." It's freaking Reaper
technology. The kind of technology that only Reapers understand. The
kind of technology that is known for its ability to twist organic
beings into husks or mindless, indoctrinated thralls.

Even
parts of Reaper technology are dangerous. You install an IFF on the
Normandy, and it contains viruses that overpower the system defenses
and get the entire crew captured. Too dangerous to keep.

And then they figured out how to stop the signal and use it right. It's called expirimentation. You don't stop using a shotgun because the recoil causes a bit of pain... you get used to the feeling so you can use it more effectively.

Modifié par Adanu, 03 février 2010 - 09:28 .

[Gabey5]

umm because they dont serve you they are just along for the ride

[Gill Kaiser]

Adanu wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Um... since when does *all* reaper tech suddenly indoctrinate? We know that the ships do, and that those husk devices do. Thats *it*. Even then, TIM is NOT an idiot, contrary to what most people seem to think. If I were him, the first thing you should do is strap multiple nukes to that base in case it really *does* have indoctrination fields in it... then put in failsafes so that if one is tampered with, the whole base would go boom.

You people are acting as if Cerberus and IM are a bunch of idiots. If they were, the Alliance would have caught them by now.

Err it isn't about the tech turning against us unknowningly.

It is about Cerberus gaining the ability to to use that technology on other species and even humans.
They don't exactly have a good track record for caring about what happens to average people. Just look at Jack's loyality Mission or that they murdered 40 Marines just to collect data on Thresher Maws if you use the Sole Survivor background.

Sometimes you have to do unpleasant things to get things done right.

That said, Jacks mission is explained well if you actually pay attention and if you talk to Miranda. There is *nothing* in game that says that IM authorized what they did to Jack. They was entirely the fault of the team involved, which suggests that the people he picked for the project were insane to start with.

As for Sole Survivor, we only have Toombs word of any of that ,and he may just be mildly insane himself.

That being said... if Cerberus abuses the power that technology allows, my Shepard is going after them. The Reapers will be childs play compared to what I will doing to him. It's one thing to use harsh methods to achieve great results, it's quite another to go on a power trip. I think IM understands this.

Don't kid yourself. The Illusive Man is the kind of guy who would know everything that was happening in his organisation. He's a machiavellian Magnificent Bastard. There's no way he didn't know about the biotics program that created Jack.

[Adanu]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Adanu wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Um... since when does *all* reaper tech suddenly indoctrinate? We know that the ships do, and that those husk devices do. Thats *it*. Even then, TIM is NOT an idiot, contrary to what most people seem to think. If I were him, the first thing you should do is strap multiple nukes to that base in case it really *does* have indoctrination fields in it... then put in failsafes so that if one is tampered with, the whole base would go boom.

You people are acting as if Cerberus and IM are a bunch of idiots. If they were, the Alliance would have caught them by now.

Err it isn't about the tech turning against us unknowningly.

It is about Cerberus gaining the ability to to use that technology on other species and even humans.
They don't exactly have a good track record for caring about what happens to average people. Just look at Jack's loyality Mission or that they murdered 40 Marines just to collect data on Thresher Maws if you use the Sole Survivor background.

Sometimes you have to do unpleasant things to get things done right.

That said, Jacks mission is explained well if you actually pay attention and if you talk to Miranda. There is *nothing* in game that says that IM authorized what they did to Jack. They was entirely the fault of the team involved, which suggests that the people he picked for the project were insane to start with.

As for Sole Survivor, we only have Toombs word of any of that ,and he may just be mildly insane himself.

That being said... if Cerberus abuses the power that technology allows, my Shepard is going after them. The Reapers will be childs play compared to what I will doing to him. It's one thing to use harsh methods to achieve great results, it's quite another to go on a power trip. I think IM understands this.

Don't kid yourself. The Illusive Man is the kind of guy who would know everything that was happening in his organisation. He's a machiavellian Magnificent Bastard. There's no way he didn't know about the biotics program that created Jack.

Don't kid yourself. Even IM didn't know that Grayson was going to betray him in the books. He isn't all seeing... he is *very* good at what he does... but even he has a limit to his intelligence and knowledge.

[Emperor Muad-Dib]

I'm playing a Renegade character, and I blew the thing sky high. Largely out of pure spite in regards to the whole Collectors abducting colonies to turn them into reaper slush. If it weren't for the whole thing of the base having the tech to turn people into reapers at the cost of (millions) of lives, I'd have saved the base in an instant, but while the end justifies the means, that only goes so far.



However, in this case I figured the cost was way too high and giving it to the Illusive Man just spelled all kinds of bad for ME3.



This choice greatly reminded me of the Brahnka and the Anvil of the Void decision in Dragon Age ( I actually kept the anvil in that one). Did anyone else get that impression?

[Neuzhelin]

D3thray wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...

Cerberus + Indoctrination = bad.

Anyone else + Indoctrination = good?

Risks are risks.  I thought it was an acceptable risk.

You just answered your own question. The risk is too big to take.
1) Xenophobic Cerberus gets the power over the galaxy ("best" option). If you have played both Mass Effects and payed attention, you wouldn't be considering it.
2) Reapers win and indoctrinate turning Cerberus into husks
3) Reapers inductrinate AND have Cerberus working for them as Saren did.

See, I can understand if you would gamble the galaxy for the first one, ignoring the last 2 as a RENEGADE Sheph, not as a paragon.

[Captain Jazz]

Thaddeus Mynor wrote...

I guess i was just thinking that. Aliens on your team in ME1 still supported you sacrificing the council, because it could have been for "the greater good".

Now saving the Collector's Base, could still be for the greater good. Using advanced technology to battle the true evil of the galaxy. I don't want mindless robots agreeing with me. but i think its pretty shallow to just have such a huge bias with this choice.

Allowing the council to die makes it more likely that you'll succeed in taking down Sovereign. If Sovereign is not taken down, then everyone is dead. Sure, you beat Sovereign either way, but is it possible for the characters to know that ahead of time? No. Allowing the council to die is brutal, but it looks like the best chance to give you an advantage and you need every advantage you can get in that situation.

Saving Reaper technology? Sure, if you manage to unlock it's secrets you could have some serious advantages there, but everything we know of Reaper tech says it will make a slave of you. A few have taken that chance and every one of them has become a slave to the machines in one way or another... saving that base is simply foolish. Giving it to Cerberus is going to offend your Cerberus crew by the fact that it'll turn any Cerberus operatives into brainwashed maniacs who will become another threat to replace the collectors and will offend you alien allies by the fact that you're putting this tech in the hands of pro-human, some-time terrorists AND likely turning them into brainwashed maniacs who will become another threat to replace the Collectors.
...I can see why nobody supports that choice.

[dan107]

I agree with the OP completely. It seems that everyone on your team (and from the looks of it, everyone in this thread) doesn't understand that the story doesn't end with the collector base. Did you forget about the minor issue of the Reapers? Remember that thing from ME1 that almost destroyed the combined fleets of the Citadel by itself? And that there are thousands of those things coming for everyone in the near future?

You're not just giving the base to the Illusive man cause you think he's a swell guy. You're giving it to him because he's the only one who realizes that the threat is real and is willing and possible able to do something about it. The choice isn't between destroying the base and living happily ever after or giving it to TIM to enslave the galaxy with it. The choice is keeping the base and facing the Reaper army knowing some glimpses of their technology or destroying the base and facing them blindly, like facing down a tank army with sticks and stones.

But regardless, whatever anyone happens to think about the base personally, having ALL the squad members come down on you for what is a perfectly valid choice in the game is bad form IMO.

Modifié par dan107, 03 février 2010 - 09:56 .

[Tassigny]

Hello,
Why would anyone in their right mind keep such an advanced base intact and hand it over to a notorious terrorist ?

The Reapers are the greatest menace the species of the galaxy have to face. The use of Reaper technology a meaningfull as cannon debris has permitted the creation of the Thanix cannon, a deadly weapon that created a big black hole where a Collector warship once stood. And that was only using debris.

Now, we know that a gigantic fleet of sentient AI's is comming our way, bent on extermianting us. So why an earth the argument ? Giving the Ilusive Man the station is risk worth taking. It is he, and only he that has truelly saved Huamnity and the galaxy of a newly created Reaper. He has built your ship, revived you, and gave you a team and brought you to sucess.

So yes, he is a bastard, and may use the tech badly. But it is infinetly preferrable to have the Illusive Man in full possession of dangerous tech and push back the Reapers than be anihilated by them only because of the fact Shepard couldn't stand the idea of working with a terrorist. He is a Specter. He represents the greatest chance of the galaxy. And Shepard's feelings don't count at all. He must act for the collective good, no matter the cost. He cannot doom the galaxy solely on suspicion.

[Grayvern]

If you speak to legion after destroying it he says that maybe sheperd is more like the geth than the geth thought.

[TheRastapopolous]

souvereing's barriers could not be penetrated by the entire arcturus fleet, in turn he ripped through cruisers like a bb gun through sheets of paper.

he was ONE ship, thousands more are coming.

how most people could even consider destroying that base is beyound me.

maybe there is active indoctrination on that base, maybe not.
maybe it can be used to gain an andvantage over the reapers, maybe not
maybe TIM will ultimately use it to advance himself to the position of god emperor of the milky way, maybe not.

destroying it serves no purpose, period.

some thousand years of (eventual) human dominance are preferrable to total extinction, no?

It's not like sheperd is without power in this. so far the normandy is the only ship equipped with the collector/reaper IFF needed to even get there.
maybe it can be replicated, but if so, the alliance/council can too
He can even bring a council delegation there to prove his claims were true, what is TIM gonna do about it, make him his enemy? please... he might be a sinnister guy and all, but he does not seem the suicidal type.

[RampantBeaver]

What do your companions know? I mean honestly do they ask you if you have any outstanding issues you want to go sort out? No. You're the only one actually focused on the mission, everyone else wants to go sort their life out at the worst possible time. Their too busy worrying about whether puberty is a malignant illness.

Except for TIM of course, hes a man on task. Therefore I conclude that yours and TIM's thoughts are all that matter. Hence as soon as he revealed this alternate method i snapped up the opportunity to save this cutting-edge peace of hardware regardless of what my ignorant self-serving companions may think.

Edit: however it did anoy me slightly that your companions don't really offer an insight into why they think its a bad idea, they just tell you they're not sure it was the right choice. I think they all should have explained themselves better and perhaps tried to persuade you a bit better. There was more of this present in ME1. For example when wrex throws a heffy because you reveal you don't intend to microwave the rachni. More arguing please Bioware!

Modifié par RampantBeaver, 03 février 2010 - 10:20 .

[Tassigny]

TheRastapopolous wrote...

souvereing's barriers could not be penetrated by the entire arcturus fleet, in turn he ripped through cruisers like a bb gun through sheets of paper.

he was ONE ship, thousands more are coming.

how most people could even consider destroying that base is beyound me.

maybe there is active indoctrination on that base, maybe not.
maybe it can be used to gain an andvantage over the reapers, maybe not
maybe TIM will ultimately use it to advance himself to the position of god emperor of the milky way, maybe not.

destroying it serves no purpose, period.

some thousand years of (eventual) human dominance are preferrable to total extinction, no?

It's not like sheperd is without power in this. so far the normandy is the only ship equipped with the collector/reaper IFF needed to even get there.
maybe it can be replicated, but if so, the alliance/council can too
He can even bring a council delegation there to prove his claims were true, what is TIM gonna do about it, make him his enemy? please... he might be a sinnister guy and all, but he does not seem the suicidal type.

Precisely.

[Mallissin]

Consider this:

The default no-import character for ME2 lets the council die and puts Udina in charge, which is probably the least choosen option of all play-throughs.

That means it's likely new players to ME3 will have the pro-human endings as well, which I bet includes letting Cerberus have the base, council died, Udina is in charge and you're not a Spectre anymore.

I'm also betting in ME3 you'll have to choose between being a Council Spectre or a Cerebus Agent. Leaving the base intact would help in both instances, to convince the Council about the Reapers and help humanity better understand Reaper technology. Hence why Bioware would most likely give it to new players.

Modifié par Mallissin, 03 février 2010 - 10:17 .

[TheRastapopolous]

Captain Jazz wrote...
Saving Reaper technology? Sure, if you manage to unlock it's secrets you could have some serious advantages there, but everything we know of Reaper tech says it will make a slave of you.

I dont get it, how is analyzing their weapon, armor and shield tech, and subsequently producing countermeasures making a slave out of anyone?

[NoUserNameHere]

You gave advanced technology over to a megolomaniac.



Eventually, the more Renegade choices are going to have to extend beyond "anti-Hero."

[marshalleck]

Adanu wrote...

Don't kid yourself. Even IM didn't know that Grayson was going to betray him in the books. He isn't all seeing... he is *very* good at what he does... but even he has a limit to his intelligence and knowledge.

Exactly why he shouldn't be handed a Reaper base.

And comparing the Reaper base to a shotgun is an absolutely ludicrous analogy.  It's good you bring it up though, because if we want to keep things relative...giving TIM the Reaper base is like giving a child a loaded shotgun to play with. Someone's going to get hurt.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 février 2010 - 10:26 .

[dan107]

TheRastapopolous wrote...
how most people could even consider destroying that base is beyound me.

I think it's subconscious meta-gaming. People know that it's a game and that it will end well even if you do all the "nice" things, that's why they throw away the base. However, if you were really in Shepard's shoes, and really were facing a very serious possibility of human extinction, you'd have to be out of your f*cking mind to throw out your only know hope for salvation. Hell, I'd personally feed half the humans in the galaxy into that thing if it meant saving the other half.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Offkorn wrote...

Do note that only the Normandy can currently travel through the Relay and even reach the base....

Oh really...

Might want to watch this then...

Oh look a bunch of Cerberus ships appearing at the base, find it interesting that I've only seen this on one of the endings where shep dies whereas on the one where lives it just shows TIM looking at the base.