416 réponses à ce sujet

[RampantBeaver]

TheRastapopolous wrote...

souvereing's barriers could not be penetrated by the entire arcturus fleet, in turn he ripped through cruisers like a bb gun through sheets of paper.

he was ONE ship, thousands more are coming.

how most people could even consider destroying that base is beyound me.

maybe there is active indoctrination on that base, maybe not.
maybe it can be used to gain an andvantage over the reapers, maybe not
maybe TIM will ultimately use it to advance himself to the position of god emperor of the milky way, maybe not.

destroying it serves no purpose, period.

some thousand years of (eventual) human dominance are preferrable to total extinction, no?

It's not like sheperd is without power in this. so far the normandy is the only ship equipped with the collector/reaper IFF needed to even get there.
maybe it can be replicated, but if so, the alliance/council can too
He can even bring a council delegation there to prove his claims were true, what is TIM gonna do about it, make him his enemy? please... he might be a sinnister guy and all, but he does not seem the suicidal type.

You'll be eating your own words when it turns out in ME3 that there actually was no way for the reapers to enter the galaxy unaided but they managed to because some cerberus idiots went and got themselves indoctrinated by messing around with tech they didn't understand, infiltrated the citadel and initialized the recal of the reaper fleet... woops.

Modifié par RampantBeaver, 03 février 2010 - 10:40 .

[WoodWizzard87]

Theres a difference between making a choice to lose expendable assets( The council), versus going on a suicide mission to kill them, finally get there and say " Hey, this base is a death trap but it looks totally useful".  as far as im concerned about the council in the issue, i really am sick and tired of them.  They wouldnt listen to us in the first game, gave us spectre status back out of pity, still wouldnt listen to us again.  And im guessing once we take teh datapad back to teh council, they will still deny much of the allegations and throw them aside, now that teh collectors are gone.  i cant wait to come back in ME3 and shove it in their faces, i want to have that chance to decide if they live or die again. 

Modifié par WoodWizzard87, 03 février 2010 - 10:33 .

[screwoffreg]

I support the Illusive Man. The Galaxy is weak as is the council and it needs an Empire of Mankind to set it straight. Once the Reapers are destroyed humanity can take its rightful place in the galaxy with Earth as its center.



Thus...the Warhammer 40k story was born, lol.

[TheRastapopolous]

dan107 wrote...
I think it's subconscious meta-gaming. People know that it's a game and that it will end well even if you do all the "nice" things, that's why they throw away the base.

true.
the sad thing is, it probably will end well, even if you destoyed that base :/

However, if you were really in Shepard's shoes, and really were facing a very serious possibility of human extinction, you'd have to be out of your f*cking mind to throw out your only know hope for salvation. Hell, I'd personally feed half the humans in the galaxy into that thing if it meant saving the other half.

I'd even hand it over to the batarians (brrr) if that meant breaking the cycle forever.

[marshalleck]

dan107 wrote...

TheRastapopolous wrote...
how most people could even consider destroying that base is beyound me.

I think it's subconscious meta-gaming. People know that it's a game and that it will end well even if you do all the "nice" things, that's why they throw away the base. However, if you were really in Shepard's shoes, and really were facing a very serious possibility of human extinction, you'd have to be out of your f*cking mind to throw out your only know hope for salvation. Hell, I'd personally feed half the humans in the galaxy into that thing if it meant saving the other half.

Hardly. The IFF alone contained viruses of such complexity that it required an AI to combat them. To think that humans can take control of that base and use it 'responsibly' with no risk is pure hubris.

[Stofsk]

dan107 wrote...

TheRastapopolous wrote...
how most people could even consider destroying that base is beyound me.

I think it's subconscious meta-gaming. People know that it's a game and that it will end well even if you do all the "nice" things, that's why they throw away the base. However, if you were really in Shepard's shoes, and really were facing a very serious possibility of human extinction, you'd have to be out of your f*cking mind to throw out your only know hope for salvation.

Bollocks it's metagaming. The Collector base is in a dangerous sector of space (near the galactic core and near a black hole if i understood the dialogue right), the technology in it is also dangerous (experience on the derelict reaper reveals that even a 'dead' reaper can still mess with your mind, and the Collector base has a direct link to Harbinger), TIM wants it for his own power, it goes beyond simply ensuring humanity's survival he wants to ensure human dominance over everything else in the galaxy - if I was literally in Shepard's shoes, paragon or renegade (or paragade since that reflects my choices), I would blow that base to hell in a hot second.

Hell, I'd personally feed half the humans in the galaxy into that thing if it meant saving the other half.

You have all the moral fibre of Joe Stalin buddy.

[TheRastapopolous]

RampantBeaver wrote...
You'll be eating your own words when it turns out in ME3 that there actually was no way for the reapers to enter the galaxy unaided but they managed to because some cerberus idiot, indoctrinated or not, managed to hit the master recal button in the collector base. Thus opening a previously undiscovered jump gate and bringing the entire reaper fleet back... oops.

yeah, right... and the collectors themselves did not push that button why excactly? did they not read the manual?

[screwoffreg]

One thing to note is that ME 2 is very good at forcing certain behaviors that Bioware wants in order to prevent us from possibly seeing an optimal ending in certain regards,



Look at the romances, Bioware intentionally made Ashley/Kaiden and Liara distant and cold to encourage people to cheat. Now, in some cases that may not be bad in the long term if you prefer Tali, Miranda, or the others, but it is pretty clear there will be consequences to these actions that Shepard will have to live with.



Look at the Collector Base now. I bet I wasn't the only one who initially did the entire last mission over based on the fact 100 percent of the crew are against leaving it. But what if that is the "easy" choice to destroy it, and maybe, just maybe there wasn't a Paragon or Renegade decision, but a decision that is best for that particular moment in history. No one has even beaten the Reapers before. Humanity struck the first blow and with the base it could strike the final blow. Why shouldn't then the race that the Reapers saw as their greatest threat take its place as the center of the Galaxy?

[dan107]

stofsk wrote...
Bollocks it's metagaming. The Collector base is in a dangerous sector of space (near the galactic core and near a black hole if i understood the dialogue right), the technology in it is also dangerous (experience on the derelict reaper reveals that even a 'dead' reaper can still mess with your mind, and the Collector base has a direct link to Harbinger), TIM wants it for his own power, it goes beyond simply ensuring humanity's survival he wants to ensure human dominance over everything else in the galaxy - if I was literally in Shepard's shoes, paragon or renegade (or paragade since that reflects my choices), I would blow that base to hell in a hot second.

What's preferable - a galaxy enslaved by humanity with TIM at it's head or a galaxy with life wiped out by the Reapers? (Keeping in mind that if you're not meta-gaming, you DON'T KNOW that it's all going to be ok anyway).

You have all the moral fibre of Joe Stalin buddy.

I'm not a big fan of Stalin, but if not for him, there's a good possibilty we'd all be going "Heil Hitler!" right now. That's all I'll say on the subject of real life politics however.

[screwoffreg]

Bioware's ME 3 team is the real Reaper, forcing us to take decisions based on a design they want. Keeping the Base may break that cycle

Modifié par screwoffreg, 03 février 2010 - 10:37 .

[WoodWizzard87]

Because we already know that Sheppard 'Is" the actual weapon and he will bring about dealing the final blow.

[marshalleck]

dan107 wrote...

What's preferable - a galaxy enslaved by humanity with TIM at it's head or a galaxy with life wiped out by the Reapers? (Keeping in mind that if you're not meta-gaming, you DON'T KNOW that it's all going to be ok anyway).

A false dilemna. With all the first-hand evidence Shepard is witness to that Reaper technology subverts and indoctrinates organics and can take control of computer systems, there's plenty of reason to think that attempting to take control of that base could have disastrous consequences.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 février 2010 - 10:39 .

[andy christo]

When the time came for me to make this decision I wasn't quite sure what to do. Throughout the game I was fully expecting Cerberus to back-stab me at any moment. I didn't trust TIM at all. I didn't trust the dead Reaper or the Collector base either. But then I thought about the legions of Reapers that I'd just pissed off and realized I know nothing about them.
I can use this Reaper tech to learn more about them, and possibly use it to fight them.
TIM can't use the Reaper tech to make Humans the rulers of the galaxy if the Reapers KILL EVERYONE. I'll take Humans running the galaxy over Reapers running the galaxy any day thanks.

The Citadel and the Relays are Reaper technology. Neither of those are used for indoctrination. The "derelict" Reaper was still alive which is why it was able to indoctrinate the people who boarded it. I don't think the dead baby Reaper and the Collector base are as dangerous as people think. I think people are just afraid.

And whats up with all the paragons here being anti-human? "Oh if we give TIM the base he'll use it to make humans the dominant force in the galaxy." Hello you're human too. Just because Humans are relatively new to the galaxy doesn't mean we have to put up with all the aliens being dicks about being there first.

Also, let's not forget about Shepard. Supposing TIM takes the Reaper tech and uses it to defeat the Reapers then he goes rogue and tries to overthrow the Council. That's when Shepard steps in and says "not on my watch b*tch" and takes him down. Let's have a little more faith in Shepard please.

The way I see it, the galaxy is in serious danger. We need to make ourselves seriously dangerous otherwise we're dead. One lone Reaper nearly set off the Citadel relay. It was a huge effort stopping it. Imagine trying to stop a fleet of Reapers. Big, angry old Reapers.

Modifié par andy christo, 03 février 2010 - 10:38 .

[TheRastapopolous]

stofsk wrote...
TIM wants it for his own power, it goes beyond simply ensuring humanity's survival he wants to ensure human dominance over everything else in the galaxy

so what, no empire lasts forever, the extinction of the human/asari/whatever race does.

[Revya]

I have been building my army to fight the Reapers since ME1. Also blowing up the base was a nice pay back for the hole collector ship incident to bad I could not say that to him.

Also what paragon shep said to TIM was perfect, there is always another way.

Also TIM does not care about humanity, as he said He IS Cerberus IS Humanity, so no never going to give it to him no matter how many times I finish the game. 

Modifié par Revya, 03 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[Emperor Muad-Dib]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

You gave advanced technology over to a megolomaniac.

Eventually, the more Renegade choices are going to have to extend beyond "anti-Hero."

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. You wouldn't hand Ernst Blofeld a nuclear bomb, or the plans to a doomsday device, which is what this decision amounts to.
 
The base itself is a great tactical advantage, but take Nuclear Weapons for example- The US having one was a great advantage at that time, but there is the moral question of letting the cat out of the bag. Some things are probably better off not being. This is one of those things. You might not pay the price right away, but rest assured there WILL be one.


Here's a "what if" for everyone who kept it:

Maybe you just assured that the reapers would be defeated, but in the process just set into motion the events that lead to human tyranny in the galaxy, causing Trillions of deaths of other sentient beings. Congratulations you just almost killed as many people as you saved beating the Reapers.

[screwoffreg]

Revya wrote...

I have been building my army to fight the Reapers since ME1. Also blowing up the base was a nice pay back for the hole collector ship incident to bad I could not say that to him.

Also what paragon shep said to TIM was perfect, there is always another way.

It may be a way that will be painful though.  What if the only way to stop the Reapers, for example, is to use Dark Energy to collapse a star and somehow trap the Reapers in the "crunch"?  What if that star is the Quarian homeworld, killing Tali's hopes? What if it is Sol, the heart of humanity?  What if the base would have prevented those difficult decisions?

Bioware warns in the load screens that ME 2 decisions will have DIRE consequences in ME 3...maybe the Paragon choices means terrible sacrifice for all while the Renegade choice means sacrifice for a few...who knows..

Modifié par screwoffreg, 03 février 2010 - 10:41 .

[dan107]

marshalleck wrote...

dan107 wrote...

What's preferable - a galaxy enslaved by humanity with TIM at it's head or a galaxy with life wiped out by the Reapers? (Keeping in mind that if you're not meta-gaming, you DON'T KNOW that it's all going to be ok anyway).

A false dilemna. With all the first-hand evidence Shepard is witness to that Reaper technology subverts and indoctrinates organics and can take control of computer systems, there's plenty of reason to think that attempting to take control of that base could have disastrous consequences.

Nothing is certain, and everything has a risk. Consider this analogy. You're facing an invading army with modern rifles. You only have spears to defend yourself. Is it worth the risk to try to master gunpowder even though you might blow yourself up in the process, or would you rather go up against the riflemen with spears and stones?

You're looking at the choice of possible indoctrination and extinction if you keep the base vs. near certain indoctrination and extinction if you don't. Destroy the base and live happily ever after is not an option.

[Barquiel]

marshalleck wrote...

A false dilemna. With all the first-hand evidence Shepard is witness to that Reaper technology subverts and indoctrinates organics and can take control of computer systems, there's plenty of reason to think that attempting to take control of that base could have disastrous consequences.

I agree

There is a reason why every single squadmate thinks it's a bad idea to keep the base...even Morinth;)

[jmood88]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That's because they understand that it was an obscenely stupid idea to keep the base. Every bit of Reaper tech that's been recovered has led to indoctrination. It's bad. Just bad. Keeping it is beyond stupid... (Though both Garrus and Mordin so far have suggested it might be worth keeping to me.) Still... it's dumb to keep it.

The Citadel and relays haven't led to indoctrination, they were traps that got turned into useful tools.

[RPGlover732]

I had a hard time this this choice

I kept the ship though, btw i play as if i was shep. Think about it like this, as far as i know im still with cerberus, and i need them to stop the reapears. and if they step out of line ill say " BAD ILLUSIVEMAN" and slap him upside the head and take that ship away from him. if lots of lives have to die in the procces of getting the stuff from that ship to stop the reapers im not going to let that happen. but if its usefull... good. I dont trust TIM but i trust cerberus kinda, i dont work for them i help them help me stop reapers.

[andy christo]

screwoffreg wrote...

Bioware warns in the load screens that ME 2 decisions will have DIRE consequences in ME 3...maybe the Paragon choices means terrible sacrifice for all while the Renegade choice means sacrifice for a few...who knows..

Or it could be talking about letting your whole squad die. Or getting Shepard killed again. All the big decisions in ME1 didn't seem to have big results in ME2. The council for example.

[screwoffreg]

ME 3 is supposed to be a darker game than the previous ones. I can imagine a bitter choice of using the Local system as a trap for the Reapers, unleashing some sort of Dark Energy weapon and annihilating every living thing the Solar system, including the Reapers.

Or, Cerebrus turns the Reapers technology against them, disabling and destroying most of the fleet but ensuring human dominance for the long term future.

Did not the Prothean visions show a solar system "exploding" in a way?  Or was that just Ilos?

Modifié par screwoffreg, 03 février 2010 - 10:48 .

[RampantBeaver]

TheRastapopolous wrote...

stofsk wrote...
TIM wants it for his own power, it goes beyond simply ensuring humanity's survival he wants to ensure human dominance over everything else in the galaxy

so what, no empire lasts forever, the extinction of the human/asari/whatever race does.

Actually for all you know that base holds the key to the only other way that the reapers could return. By destroying it you could have actually just saved the galaxy and harbringer was just bluffing when he said he'd find another way.

[RampantBeaver]

double post

Modifié par RampantBeaver, 03 février 2010 - 11:20 .