96 réponses à ce sujet

[mundus66]

DarthCaine wrote...

Harbinger: "We will find another way"

Meaning they can't get out of dark space without someone activating the citadel

It obviously possible, but it will probably take thousands upon thousands of years. Then galactic civilization will probably be strong enough to defeat by then. They need to come through a relay.

Modifié par mundus66, 04 février 2010 - 12:33 .

[Sabre120]

A coherent reality that we do not know all the ins and outs of much like our own, we have no conclusion to why certain things happen in the universe, we can hypothesise why, but until proper evidence is secured then we never really know. besides, purely for the sake of story, the Reapers will either attack the galaxy or be on the brink of attacking the galaxy as that is what the Mass Effect story is based upon, they can't simply end ME3 saying, "Ah the Reapers can't get through relays so we're fine, everyone go home, nothing to see"

Modifié par Sabre120, 04 février 2010 - 12:36 .

[fogofeternity]

Sabre120 wrote...

A coherent reality that we do not know all the ins and outs of much like our own, we have no conclusion to why certain things happen in the universe, we can hypothesise why, but until proper evidence is secured then we never really know

No, but if we extend that to accepting that the Reapers can just fly back to the galaxy relatively quickly and with no great resource loss, then what's the point of actions taken in ME1 and ME2. The whole idea of stopping the Reapers from being able to come back seems to become somewhat pointless.

[Sabre120]

I understand that, but you make it seem as though darkspace is a completely different realm of existence which is impossible to escape without the use of a mass relay, which is untrue

[Brahlis]

Flying towards the Galaxy wouldn't take as much energy as you think. Once they get up to their target speed they can just coast. They won't stop unless they hit something, lol.

[GnusmasTHX]

Tuttotus wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Tuttotus wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Apollo1450 wrote...

what about the end when harbinger released what seemed like a reaper from the collector base?
.

Do you actually think that the Collector cruiser looks anything like a Reaper?

The very end when the station is about to blow or the EMP goes off. When the Collectors says" I release you".

Not the collector ship.

What are you talking about?

The only thing that leaves the Collector base is the Normandy, and a Collector cruiser. No Reapers come out of it.

Harbinger doesn't release anything but the Collector General. That's very poor and imprecise wording if you're talking about the hologram the General is looking at at the end. Even so, that hologram is of Harbinger, he doesn't release himself.

Harbinger
Harbinger is a Reaper, and the real mastermind behind the Collector
General. His plans included the creation of a Human-Reaper hybrid. With
the use of advanced Reaper technology and the implants within each
Collector he is able to control the Collector General from Dark Space.
After Shepard destroys both the Collector General and the prototype
hybrid, Harbinger asserts that this is a temporary setback. It is last
seen awakening its fellow Reapers from hibernation.


http://en.wikipedia....llector_General





I hate using wikipedia as a resource. But the end ship is a Reaper.

Christ, I don't even know why you're quoting me or spouting irrelevant text.

No Reaper is released from the Collector Base, in any fashion, or by anyone, including Harbinger.

[Sunyavadin]

I suspect they're planning on bulding another Citadel-scale mass relay, and that's what the dying stars were about.

[fogofeternity]

Sabre120 wrote...

I understand that, but you make it seem as though darkspace is a completely different realm of existence which is impossible to escape without the use of a mass relay, which is untrue

No, but the clear suggestion throughout both ME1 and ME2 is that the Reapers have no practical method of travelling from dark space to the Milky Way without the use of the Citadel mass relay. That makes ME1 clearly logical in that the point of the game is to block off the Citadel to them.

ME2 then covers some kind of attempt by the Reapers to develop an alternative tactic to allow them to get back to the Milky Way and Citadel space.

If it then proceeds to "well, they couldn't work anything out, so they just flew back" then it undermines all the efforts of ME1 and ME2 storylines.

[Sabre120]

The purpose of the Citadel Mass Relay was to wipe out any galactic government body to turn the rest of the galaxy into turmoil, not just a "Quick Entrance", now that the Reapers are aware of the fact that it has been deactivated they must go in full force to destroy galactic civilisation, despite the fact that the citizens of the galaxy will probably unite against them, besides the deactivation of the citadel mass relay was only meant to postpone the invasion, no one was aware for how long, but it is clear it has only set back the invasion by a mere few years

[GnusmasTHX]

fogofeternity wrote...

Sabre120 wrote...

I understand that, but you make it seem as though darkspace is a completely different realm of existence which is impossible to escape without the use of a mass relay, which is untrue

No, but the clear suggestion throughout both ME1 and ME2 is that the Reapers have no practical method of travelling from dark space to the Milky Way without the use of the Citadel mass relay. That makes ME1 clearly logical in that the point of the game is to block off the Citadel to them.

ME2 then covers some kind of attempt by the Reapers to develop an alternative tactic to allow them to get back to the Milky Way and Citadel space.

If it then proceeds to "well, they couldn't work anything out, so they just flew back" then it undermines all the efforts of ME1 and ME2 storylines.

No it doesn't. The Citadel Relay Network only speeds up and facilitates their objective to destroy all advanced life in the galaxy. 

Nothing ever suggested that the Reapers were permanently trapped in Dark Space. They've always had the ability to just fly in, as far as I'm concerned and have gleamed from what's said of them in ME1 and ME2.

The difference is that it'll take them longer, require more resources, and they'll end up in the fringes of the galaxy and at  a strategic and tactical disadvantage.

The whole point at the end of ME1 is that you only slowed them down, and you never stopped them; hence Shepard's last comments. Naturally the same thing applies to ME2.

[mundus66]

Brahlis wrote...

Flying towards the Galaxy wouldn't take as much energy as you think. Once they get up to their target speed they can just coast. They won't stop unless they hit something, lol.

Do you know how physics work? In order to maintain speed they have to keep adding energy or it will eventually stop. In space that takes very very long time though, if there is no gravitiy involved. But do you really think they can keep light speed (or faster) by just gliding?

[fogofeternity]

Sabre120 wrote...

The purpose of the Citadel Mass Relay was to wipe out any galactic government body to turn the rest of the galaxy into turmoil, not just a "Quick Entrance", now that the Reapers are aware of the fact that it has been deactivated they must go in full force to destroy galactic civilisation, despite the fact that the citizens of the galaxy will probably unite against them, besides the deactivation of the citadel mass relay was only meant to postpone the invasion, no one was aware for how long, but it is clear it has only set back the invasion by a mere few years

Except that:

a) Nobody believes in them, so there's no united front and, more importantly;

If they can fly to the Milky Way then they can merely fly to the first mass relay they find, jump to the Citadel, and take it out. That hardly provides extra warning. Particularly given the suggestion that the Reapers know the locations of the mass relays that existing galactic civilization doesn't know about.

It's the latter of those two reasons that seems to me the strongest argument for them not flying from dark space. They created the Citadel specifically to act as somewhere that galactic civilization would naturally gravitate to, and to act as a giant and very specific mass relay. But being able to jump directly to the Citadel seems largely a matter of convenience rather than necessity. 

What was necessity is that they had some way of getting from dark space to the Milky Way. That's what they currently lack.

Modifié par fogofeternity, 04 février 2010 - 12:56 .

[Looy]

Whatever the Reapers try in ME3, I'm sure they will succeed in reaching the Galaxy this time.

In ME3 I think you will begin with a mission to stop yet another Reaper invasion, you fail this time, resulting in the Reapers invading galactic space. You will then be forced to gather as many allies as possible (sometimes choosing between two different allies) to fight the reapers off. The game will end with a huge epic space battle where everyone from ME1/2 fights and most die, but the reapers are defeated.

/speculation

Modifié par Looy, 04 février 2010 - 12:58 .

[GnusmasTHX]

fogofeternity wrote...

Sabre120 wrote...

The purpose of the Citadel Mass Relay was to wipe out any galactic government body to turn the rest of the galaxy into turmoil, not just a "Quick Entrance", now that the Reapers are aware of the fact that it has been deactivated they must go in full force to destroy galactic civilisation, despite the fact that the citizens of the galaxy will probably unite against them, besides the deactivation of the citadel mass relay was only meant to postpone the invasion, no one was aware for how long, but it is clear it has only set back the invasion by a mere few years

Except that:

a) Nobody believes in them, so there's no united front and, more importantly;

If they can fly to the Milky Way then they can merely fly to the first mass relay they find, jump to the Citadel, and take it out. That hardly provides extra warning. Particularly given the suggestion that the Reapers know the locations of the mass relays that existing galactic civilization doesn't know about.

It's the latter of those two reasons that seems to me the strongest argument for them not flying from dark space. They created the Citadel specifically to act as somewhere that galactic civilization would naturally gravitate to, and to act as a giant and very specific mass relay. But being able to jump directly to the Citadel seems largely a matter of convenience rather than necessity. 

What was necessity is that they had some way of getting from dark space to the Milky Way. That's what they currently lack.

A) There's Shepard and his allies. Which includes; at least for me, a rapidly growing rachni population and an the most heavily armed ship in the galaxy, among other things.

It could literally take decades for this to happen, without a Plan C. Reapers don't want this. Even now we have miniaturized their main weapon. (And making things smaller is the truest sign of technological and scientific advancement, for reals.)

C) Even WITH the Relays and using the Citadel-trap (Perhaps the Citadel is a Relay control hub, turning specific Relays on or off to isolate groups to kill off, who knows.) Exterminating the galaxy was an extremely long and tedious process, as pointed out by Virgil, and even then, the Reapers weren't thorough. 

[Giantevilhead]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

fogofeternity wrote...

Sabre120 wrote...

The purpose of the Citadel Mass Relay was to wipe out any galactic government body to turn the rest of the galaxy into turmoil, not just a "Quick Entrance", now that the Reapers are aware of the fact that it has been deactivated they must go in full force to destroy galactic civilisation, despite the fact that the citizens of the galaxy will probably unite against them, besides the deactivation of the citadel mass relay was only meant to postpone the invasion, no one was aware for how long, but it is clear it has only set back the invasion by a mere few years

Except that:

a) Nobody believes in them, so there's no united front and, more importantly;

If they can fly to the Milky Way then they can merely fly to the first mass relay they find, jump to the Citadel, and take it out. That hardly provides extra warning. Particularly given the suggestion that the Reapers know the locations of the mass relays that existing galactic civilization doesn't know about.

It's the latter of those two reasons that seems to me the strongest argument for them not flying from dark space. They created the Citadel specifically to act as somewhere that galactic civilization would naturally gravitate to, and to act as a giant and very specific mass relay. But being able to jump directly to the Citadel seems largely a matter of convenience rather than necessity. 

What was necessity is that they had some way of getting from dark space to the Milky Way. That's what they currently lack.

A) There's Shepard and his allies. Which includes; at least for me, a rapidly growing rachni population and an the most heavily armed ship in the galaxy, among other things.

It could literally take decades for this to happen, without a Plan C. Reapers don't want this. Even now we have miniaturized their main weapon. (And making things smaller is the truest sign of technological and scientific advancement, for reals.)

C) Even WITH the Relays and using the Citadel-trap (Perhaps the Citadel is a Relay control hub, turning specific Relays on or off to isolate groups to kill off, who knows.) Exterminating the galaxy was an extremely long and tedious process, as pointed out by Virgil, and even then, the Reapers weren't thorough. 

The Protheans had a much larger empire than the current races. Trillions of Protheans were wiped out by the Reapers. The Council races do not have that kind of numbers.

As for miniaturization, it's only a sign of advancement if the miniaturized version keeps the same functionality of the bigger version. Laptops are miniaturized computers but they're not nearly as powerful as desktop computers of equal cost. The Thanix Cannon may be powerful but it's probably not nearly as powerful as Sovereign's weapon.

[fogofeternity]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

A) There's Shepard and his allies. Which includes; at least for me, a rapidly growing rachni population and an the most heavily armed ship in the galaxy, among other things.

Well, you've got Cerberus, a Rachni population that's had two years to grow, and a very *advanced* ship (I don't think the Normandy is really a warship though, more a kind of light starship with some combat capabilities). But no buy in from the Council, the Alliance, Turians, Asari or Salarians, which is effectively every combat ship in Citadel space.

Though I do think the Rachni will have an important part to play in some way in ME3.

It could literally take decades for this to happen, without a Plan C. Reapers don't want this. Even now we have miniaturized their main weapon. (And making things smaller is the truest sign of technological and scientific advancement, for reals.)

C) Even WITH the Relays and using the Citadel-trap (Perhaps the Citadel is a Relay control hub, turning specific Relays on or off to isolate groups to kill off, who knows.) Exterminating the galaxy was an extremely long and tedious process, as pointed out by Virgil, and even then, the Reapers weren't thorough. 

Decades for what to happen? For them to fly back? If so I agree, it should take decades (at least) for the Reapers to fly back.

Which arguably would work to their advantage in one way, that if people barely believe they exist now, two years after Sovereign, they'll definitely have forgotten them in another few decades.

The Citadel is a relay control hub. Vigil explains that in ME1, that the Reapers used the Citadel to cut off other mass relays and isolated all the different planets of the Prothean empire by picking them off one by one. There's no suggestion that any of the existing races are aware of that capability (or indeed any suggestion in ME2 that there's any knowledge that the Citadel is a mass relay at all).

If all else fails then presumably the Reapers could *eventually* make it back to the Milky Way. But if they can do it in a reasonably short time span (i.e. a year or two) to incorporate into Shepard's story then I think it seriously devalues events in ME1&2. If it takes a significant period of time, i.e. decades, then it can't fall into Shepard's story arc.

Given the amount of comment and hinting in ME2 about dark energy, and the importance of Element Zero, I can see something along the lines of the Reapers constructing a "one shot" mass relay (a "no return" that requires victory in Citadel space), or I suppose some kind of stockpiling of power to allow a super-speed FTL return to the galaxy.

[evan Derdowski]

only a slight part of the galexy is part of citadel and terminus space whose to say there are not other relays that go to certain places that could help the reapers. but i think the dark energy and dieing star have to do with there plan c, most likely invlolving wormwhole travel of somekind

[Urazz]

I think they were originally planned to use the Human Reaper to do the 'use the Citadel as a relay to sneak attack' plan again as a last ditch effort before they hoof it by standard drives and waste energy/fuel getting back to the Milky Way. It wouldn't surprise me if the reapers will be a bit weaker than they would be if their original plan worked.

[Nayt Navare]

Brutalise wrote...

fogofeternity wrote...

But how do they get back to real space from dark space? If they just fly there then it seems a bit of a fudge, because it undermines most of their backstory. As well as being effectively impossible based on what has been explained of the ME universe

Maybe they could've choosen to just fly from dark space to real space from the start. But after Shepard beat sovereign, then beating the hell out of the Collectors and their giant terminator reaper filled with human slushies, could be possible they are just truely pissed off and now with all other (known) options out of the way, maybe flying there is the only way to start the mass genocide. but in doing so maybe the reapers are left weakend from such a LONG trip there, having to use alot of their resources/energy to do so, meaning they most likely wound't want to take this opition in the first place. With them possibly just flying all the way out there, maybe in their weakend state, it'll give organic life a fighting chance againts the reaper armies. Just a thought I had, doesn't sound all that solid. But there is one explanation.

pretty solid to me.

[XenogearsOwnsAll]

fogofeternity wrote...

Sabre120 wrote...

I understand that, but you make it seem as though darkspace is a completely different realm of existence which is impossible to escape without the use of a mass relay, which is untrue

No, but the clear suggestion throughout both ME1 and ME2 is that the Reapers have no practical method of travelling from dark space to the Milky Way without the use of the Citadel mass relay. That makes ME1 clearly logical in that the point of the game is to block off the Citadel to them.

ME2 then covers some kind of attempt by the Reapers to develop an alternative tactic to allow them to get back to the Milky Way and Citadel space.

If it then proceeds to "well, they couldn't work anything out, so they just flew back" then it undermines all the efforts of ME1 and ME2 storylines.

I definitely agree that it undermines all the efforts of the ME1/2 storylines, but I noticed something troubling when rewatching the ending cutscene  It shows the Reaper armada "emerging" into the light, starting with Harbinger in the front, and working towards the back.  It seems to show them coming out of dark space.

Edit:  I mean that it might symbolize them emerging from dark space...I know that dark space actually refers to a place that is empty of stars, so they weren't actually emerging from dark space.  If they were doing that they'd be in the galaxy already.

Modifié par XenogearsOwnsAll, 04 février 2010 - 03:31 .

[caynes]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Geth. Dying sun. Dark Energy. Wormholes.

 all are good explinations and i would think even the reapers are desprate at some point, and i think that if some died on the way that it would even the odds alittle anyways lol

[AttorneyAtLawlz]

mundus66 wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

Flying towards the Galaxy wouldn't take as much energy as you think. Once they get up to their target speed they can just coast. They won't stop unless they hit something, lol.

Do you know how physics work? In order to maintain speed they have to keep adding energy or it will eventually stop. In space that takes very very long time though, if there is no gravitiy involved. But do you really think they can keep light speed (or faster) by just gliding?

I mean even though our physics imply that, you have to consider the reapers' use of element zero and Mass Effect fields: Mass Effect field around self -> Practically no mass -> Not that much energy for FTL travel. What would take a lot of energy and resources is maintaining that Mass Effect field around them, but look at that 27 million year old derelict reaper. Having a Mass Effect field around itself for 27 million years can't be easy. On the other hand, maybe the reapers are in a hurry to get to the galaxy from dark space, so they'll use a lot more resources to get here faster, resulting in weaker mass effect fields / shield / whatever when they arrive to exterminate everything. But as was mentioned before, that dying sun on Haestrom is a very very very interesting part of the plot, especially since the nebula/cluster it's located in is the "Far Rim" which is at the outer edge of the galaxy.

[Annihilator27]

Yes im trying to figure out how long it'll take for the fleet to get there. The galaxy is 100,000 light years across. But that ending was a hard angle to judge from.

[zakahir]

the reason as too having the rachni attack was actually explained in the first one though not how you thought it was(ie it wasn't a oh we did this to them for x reason" remember how soverign says we have you evolve on a specific path? well guess what the rachni aren't doing? evovling on a specific path. so they needed something that could destory the rachni before they over evolved and couldn't be destroyed.

[dynas2001]

how do we know 100% all relays have been uncovered? The fact that we found another prometian beacon shows us that there is still lots to discover! I'd say we could find many more mass relays.