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[melkathi]

I'll pretend I can't use the search engine because it isn't (easily) accessible
Truth is, the RTO thread I found that was feedback orientated was in the no spoiler section...

The things that bothered me will look trivial to most I think. So be warned. Oh yes and of course Spoilers.

1) Inside the tower of Ishal:
The door leading to the stairway to the upper floor has been barricaded from the inside. Of course from a design point, they wanted an excuse to lock off that part of the map, but: The tower was overrun by darkspawn before Loghain's retreat. So who barricaded that door from the inside? Barricading is done to keep stuff out. But the darkspawn were in control of the tower and I seriously doubt one group of darkspawn would barricade themselves in to keep the other darkspawn out.
Does that mean Flemeth's rescue of Alistair and you, had enough of a death toll among the present darkspawn that it was possible, when soldiers were falling back from the battle, not knowing the tower had been overrun, they sought to make a last stand there and fought their way past those doors and barricaded them?

2) In the tunnels:
I know map pieces, textures and stuff get recycled. But giant roots under the tower of Ishal? Those roots look great underneath the Brescilian Forest, but here they are completly out of place. When I stepped into the tunnels my first thought was "oh look, the dalish origin dungeon".

3) Cailan's burial:
You get three options what to do.
1. say that he is of royal blood and deserves better
2. say that he's dead, you'll cut him down, but leave him to the wolves
3. say that the darkspawn can have their fun with him
Really? Are those the options? What happened to "Noone deserves to be treated like this?" I ran through this with a dalish character, she couldn't care less about human lords, but that doesn't mean she'll be a **** about it. Even if she was inclined to just leave him to the wolves, she would have burned the body for Alistair's sake if nothing else. But having to be royalty to not deserve to get crucified by darkspawn is really sad.


That's it really.
I was of course a bit dissappointed that none of the fun characters had anything to say. It's unlikely Morrigan would not have some snide remark to make about Cailan's situation. But that's a budget matter and I'll accept that.

The good news though:
Following the logic of the Duncan's alive crowd:
Since there are hardly any bodies anywhere, it seems almost everyone survived the battle

[melkathi]

Colenda wrote...

That annoyed me too. I wonder if it would have slowed down the loading times to put more corpses on the battlefield? Or for that matter, would it have been out of the question to have a larger battlefield. What there was seemed tiny. 

Bann Loren's lands were tiny as well. I didn't expect much, but definitly more than that when I read "Travel to Bann Loren's Lands"

[Seymour_North]

melkathi wrote...
3) Cailan's burial:
You get three options what to do.
1. say that he is of royal blood and deserves better
2. say that he's dead, you'll cut him down, but leave him to the wolves
3. say that the darkspawn can have their fun with him
Really? Are those the options? What happened to "Noone deserves to be treated like this?" I ran through this with a dalish character, she couldn't care less about human lords, but that doesn't mean she'll be a **** about it. Even if she was inclined to just leave him to the wolves, she would have burned the body for Alistair's sake if nothing else. But having to be royalty to not deserve to get crucified by darkspawn is really sad.

I completely agree! My elf mage couldn't care less about hereditary royalty either--when the choice was hers, she picked Harrowmont AND Anora solo. But she wouldn't have left *anyone* on display like that.

Modifié par Seymour_North, 03 février 2010 - 09:58 .

[SnipeyMcGee]

I thought that the darkspawn ate the bodies, or immediately made to drag them underground at least. If I remember, after the battle Morrigan says something along the lines of "You don't want to see what's going on in that valley right now..." when you first awaken in her hut, which I thought implied that the darkspawn do sinister things to the corpses. Cailan was left because he was a king, crucified and pincussioned at the ruins of the fortress he failed to defend. A symbol for any that dared to sneak back into the ruins.

[melkathi]

SnipeyMcGee wrote...

I thought that the darkspawn ate the bodies, or immediately made to drag them underground at least. If I remember, after the battle Morrigan says something along the lines of "You don't want to see what's going on in that valley right now..." when you first awaken in her hut, which I thought implied that the darkspawn do sinister things to the corpses. Cailan was left because he was a king, crucified and pincussioned at the ruins of the fortress he failed to defend. A symbol for any that dared to sneak back into the ruins.

That's the way I see it as well. My remark was mostly a snide one for the people who believe that Duncan's body had to be there otherwise he couldn't be dead.
Still, without bodies, it doesn't look very battlefieldy...

[Carodej]

4) Why do the darkspawn put up fences that channel us in such a linear path on that map? Why can't we climb over such low fences? Why can't we destroy such fences like we do barricades?



5) Why did they put the codex entries in such a poor order? The first note was second to last in the section, the second note was third to last, and the third note was the very first - well away from all other RtO notes. Why is there an immersion breaking full list of credits added to the same section as those letters?



6) Why is there no explanation for approval loss from your party members if they're the ones that weren't at Ostagar (and had voice work done specifically for the DLC)?



7) Why is Cailan's armor in different tiers instead of all the same?



8) If this was Maric's sword we found, why isn't it dragonbone like in the novels?



9) Why does Alistair go on about having nothing of Duncan's, yet says not a word when we find Duncan't weapons? We get a lot more reaction from a shield we never actully see used that the weapons Duncan always had on him.



10) Why did I lose my key to the mage chest when I still have others I have used or never need to use? Why did the mages put a pretty good staff in said chest after the contents of the chest were stolen the night before? For that matter, why did mages put the staff in there instead of using it in the battle? (Assuming the paralysis works, it could be one of the better staves in the game.)



11) Why does the tunnel come out onto the battlefield in a location that was under control of the Ferelden forces until the battle was mostly loss? I mean they couldn't have put troops into the tunnel until after we were at the tower. To they have some of time warp spell that lets them do this?



12) If the joining chalice is a special one used in all joinings in Ferelden, why didn't Alistair have a bigger reaction? If it was merely the chalice used in the latest joining, why is it even a gift for Alistair?



13) What do giant spiders eat if the tunnel has been sealed off at both end for years?



14) Why do the darkspawn have more ballistas in Ostagar than we did?



15) Why have the darkspawn been hauling boxes, chests, and sacks full of armor and weapons to Ostagar? Shouldn't they have been using them? If they're not using them, why did they put them there? For more troops? (Where were the rest of the troops if we went back there directly after Lothering?)



I could go on, but what's the point?

[Faffnr]

The DLC devs should really take a look at your list. The only ones with a legitimate answer are 7 and 8, because of DLC item scaling. I just wish they were all Dragonbone so I wouldn't have to pay to sell and rebuy them to upgrade them when I gain a few levels.

[wonko33]

Everywhere in the game when I kill something the body disappear rather quickly but some of you have a hard time that there are no bodies at Ostagar?

[Carodej]

Faffnr wrote...

The DLC devs should really take a look at your list. The only ones with a legitimate answer are 7 and 8, because of DLC item scaling. I just wish they were all Dragonbone so I wouldn't have to pay to sell and rebuy them to upgrade them when I gain a few levels.

I know #7 would have been a little tricky.  But you can change the tier in game, so they could have written a script to check your level, set some flag(s), then use the flag(s) to set the tier of the equipment.  It probably would have been a pain to do this, and may not be worth it.  But it still is annoying that a "matching set" can be of a few different metals.

As for #8, you can easily set an item to be one material and never change.  It should have been a dragonbone item from the start, no matter what your level.  That is a simple thing to do in the toolset, it requires the same time as it takes to ensure the item is upgradeable (like this sword is).

wonko33 wrote...

Everywhere in the game when I kill something the body disappear rather quickly but some of you have a hard time that there are no bodies at Ostagar?

Well, if the Ogre is there, why not the others?    Actually this one doesn't bother me.  We were told many were eaten or dragged off to be eaten.  Plus with snow all over the place, there could be lots of bodies hidden under that as well.

Some people just want Duncan to be alive.  I expect there's a good chance they'll get that wish some day, but he'll probably be like Bregen.

Edit: formatting

Modifié par Carodej, 03 février 2010 - 10:42 .

[TeamRyan]

What significance would the kings body have to the darkspawn... meaning how did they know he was the king and secondly if they knew what purpose does it serve to holster his body up in their camp?

[melkathi]

TeamRyan wrote...

What significance would the kings body have to the darkspawn... meaning how did they know he was the king and secondly if they knew what purpose does it serve to holster his body up in their camp?

No significance whatsoever really. Crucifying his body would have either been done to boost own morale or to damage enemy morale. The only person who'd witness the desecration of Cailan's body though is the player. While the average darkspawn does not seem to be intelligent enough to care about things such as moral.
So it has been done to create an emotional scene for the player and give a certain focus and a clear end to the RTO quest. After all, what else is there? You run along a predetermined route, killing everything you encounter. Once you have reached the end of the route, you backtrack a tiny bit, are presented with probably the weakest moral choice in the game (burn the body or not), leave the map to never return.

The DLC was an excuse to add some more info about Cailan and the battle, which people had really wanted. It also was a chance to add the dog and mage chest for those who had missed them, when it was still early in the game and missing out on stuff could still be attributed to not having completly gotten the hang of things.
Ostagar itself though ended up just a location though and was given no story to tell, which would have made it anything more than simply "hack slash hack slah oh Alistair started talking with Wynne, let's listen. Ok they are done. Where were we? Ah yes, hack slash hack slash..."
I find it sadly lacking in the qualities that made the rest of Dragon Age such a great game.

[Addai]

TeamRyan wrote...

What significance would the kings body have to the darkspawn... meaning how did they know he was the king and secondly if they knew what purpose does it serve to holster his body up in their camp?

You see bodies hanging in numerous areas under attack by darkspawn.  Usually hanging as in rope-around-the-neck.  Remember Alistair commenting on how excessive it seemed when you saw the bodies hanging in the Korcari Wilds?  Obviously the darkspawn do have a notion of trophies and taunting.

It looked to me like the ogre was headed straight for Cailan, knocking people out of the way to get to him.  It does not take much intelligence to figure out "that is the leader."  Not more intelligence than the average darkspawn emissary or tax collector possesses. 

[melkathi]

Addai67 wrote...

TeamRyan wrote...

What significance would the kings body have to the darkspawn... meaning how did they know he was the king and secondly if they knew what purpose does it serve to holster his body up in their camp?

You see bodies hanging in numerous areas under attack by darkspawn.  Usually hanging as in rope-around-the-neck.  Remember Alistair commenting on how excessive it seemed when you saw the bodies hanging in the Korcari Wilds?  Obviously the darkspawn do have a notion of trophies and taunting.

It looked to me like the ogre was headed straight for Cailan, knocking people out of the way to get to him.  It does not take much intelligence to figure out "that is the leader."  Not more intelligence than the average darkspawn emissary or tax collector possesses. 

I always felt that the strung up bodies were mostly done for ambience though. Look at Redcliff for example. You get there during the attack, but already some darkspawn have taken a break from the fight to hang a few corpses from the windmill.

Modifié par melkathi, 03 février 2010 - 11:28 .

[Addai]

You get there after Redcliffe village has been mostly cleared out one way or another (evacuation + killing). Not the start of the attack. The darkspawn in the village are basically holding it after having taken it.



I mean, give the devs a little credit for having thought of some of these things, yes?

[Aldridgeguy]

I have a question on this issue....The gaping hole in the floor in the tower of Ishtar explains how the darkspawn managed to capture the tower in the first place, what I want to know is why isn't it there when you are running through the tower iat the start of the game during the battle ??!!??!!

Modifié par Aldridgeguy, 03 février 2010 - 11:54 .

[Myzzrimm]

You mean where the Darkspawn dug through? Er, that is there. You can't enter, but it's there both in RtO ad the Already-In-Ostagar.

[Aldridgeguy]

Yes but I meant ( prolly shouldve worded it better lol ) why can't you go into the tunnels at the start of the game ?

[Carodej]

Aldridgeguy wrote...

Yes but I meant ( prolly shouldve worded it better lol ) why can't you go into the tunnels at the start of the game ?

Um, because your characters didn't think to try it at the time as they were in a rush to get to the top of the tower (and don't bother to contradict me with the fact you clicked on it and nothing happened, I know that as I did it too  ).

[SusanStoHelit]

I think the hanging of the body of Cailan had several levels.



First, the impact on the player: a very Christ-like crucifixion scene that is meant to be both shocking and sad. Second, the impact on the pc and companions. Third is the darkspawn component - and I find this the most interesting.



Yes, the darkspawn hang the bodies of those they've slain - or, possibly, kill them by hanging them. But this is different. If you look at the structure on which Cailan is hanging it is very similar to those in the Deep Roads. You know, those statues of gods that the darkspawn have altered and put dragon wings and heads on. It seems to me that they have displayed Cailan in much the same way.



Is this an act of veneration of Cailan? Or a desecration? Or simply a 'hunting trophy'? I have no idea, there is too little evidence, but I keep thinking about it.

[SusanStoHelit]

16. Why do they have one of the characters say 'hung' when referring to Cailan instead of 'hanged'? This really irks me. Meat is hung - a man may be 'well hung' (or not, as the case may be) - but a human being who has been suspended by some means is hanged.

*Puts a big red line through the script and subtracts 5 marks.*

[Edited for clarity.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 04 février 2010 - 01:01 .

[melkathi]

Addai67 wrote...

I mean, give the devs a little credit for having thought of some of these things, yes?

But only because you asked nicely

It would be nice to be given at least a little bit of reason. Then again, as I type this, I have to ask myself, what's the reason for any excess of violence in human history...
If you want to see my view on it though it's simple: the game is violent, dark fantasy. The atmosphere needs to be set right. If everywhere we go the darkspawn always had dragged everyone off and devoured them, that would leave the art team with few resources to describe the horror. A few corpses on the ground, a few villagers and soldiers strung up and left dangling from a tree, these details add a lot since they confront the player with the fact that there were victims. Having the darkspawn still hunting and slaugthering survivors while the first few corpses are already swinging on a rope, shows even more what an overwhelming force they are. As a visual tool, I think I really do appreciate these details.
Now we come to Ostagar though. How many desecrated corpses are there? Just the one if I remember correctly? There even is a completly untouched body of a warrior lying around somewhere.
The crucified form of Cailan is a very strong image. Possibly the strongest image in the game. It has some great parallels to religious art - be it Jesus Christ or any christian martyr. Simply looking at it as a composition, I think it's great. They captured in one small space the essence of the betrayal at Ostagar. This is the result of Loghain's actions. A beautifully made symbol well worth putting in the game for it's own sake.
But that does not mean that there is a reason why the darkspawn would do it.
Sometimes there is no story reason. Many times there need not even be one. But RTO seems to be lacking much reasoning. Each lacking reason, if seen on its own is insignificant. But as a whole, it leaves it lacking more:
RTO is a chance to gather some nice, emotionaly charged loot. A chance to be given some information we wanted. A chance for some more party banter. A chance to feel a knot tie in your stomach as you look at betrayal. And a second chance to add a certain character to the roster. And it does all that (how well is left up to each person to decide).
What RTO doesn't do, is really tell a story, have a plot. It is an obstacle course which provides you with the above things as you run through it. But it is not what other quests in the game are.

[Sarielle]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I think the hanging of the body of Cailan had several levels.

First, the impact on the player: a very Christ-like crucifixion scene that is meant to be both shocking and sad. Second, the impact on the pc and companions. Third is the darkspawn component - and I find this the most interesting.

Yes, the darkspawn hang the bodies of those they've slain - or, possibly, kill them by hanging them. But this is different. If you look at the structure on which Cailan is hanging it is very similar to those in the Deep Roads. You know, those statues of gods that the darkspawn have altered and put dragon wings and heads on. It seems to me that they have displayed Cailan in much the same way.

Is this an act of veneration of Cailan? Or a desecration? Or simply a 'hunting trophy'? I have no idea, there is too little evidence, but I keep thinking about it.

I was trying to remember what the Cailan crucifixion reminded me of -- the stuff in the Deep Roads. Thank you! And now that I remember where they were from...you bring up some VERY interesting points.

They went extremely heavily religious with that symbolism though...even to the slightly turned/tipped head you see so often with Jesus. I've been trying to draw a parallel...Cailan was the sacrificial lamb at Ostagar -- at least from Loghain's perspective? He died so that Ferelden could live, so to speak?

[SusanStoHelit]

Yes, the religious symbolism is very strong - as it is in the deep roads - but hey, I'm a comparative religion scholar, so I see religious symbolism everywhere. It's good to know it's not just me. ;-)