87 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarielle]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Yes, the religious symbolism is very strong - as it is in the deep roads - but hey, I'm a comparative religion scholar, so I see religious symbolism everywhere. It's good to know it's not just me. ;-)

I'm a....journalist? lol. But I do enjoy exploring thematic elements in literature...and the thing with Cailan seemed much too deliberate to not have some greater significance.

[Carodej]

I saw the religious symbolism too, though I wasn't sure what the devs meant to convey with it.

As has been pointed out by others elsewhere, the whole RtO was a great chance for BW to do a great DLC. But it really should have been much longer. Sure, that would have jacked up the price. I just don't think this DLC does justice to what could have been done here. It had its moments, but too many flaws.

Edit: typos

Modifié par Carodej, 04 février 2010 - 01:31 .

[melkathi]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Yes, the religious symbolism is very strong - as it is in the deep roads - but hey, I'm a comparative religion scholar, so I see religious symbolism everywhere. It's good to know it's not just me. ;-)

No, it's not just you And I for one welcome it.

[DreGregoire]

Heh I totally wanted to see what was beyond that door, irked me actually.

Yes when I jumped below I too was reminded of the dalish origin heh but I just chalked it up to a money issue.

I was disappointed by the choices of things to say too, a couple more would have been nice, origin specific for sure

Darkspawn don't leave bodies behind... so there are no bodies to be seen. They are.... I can't say it but it's possible to learn more in the dalish origin and other conversations.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 février 2010 - 02:46 .

[melkathi]

DreGregoire wrote...

Heh I totally wanted to see what was beyond that door, irked me actually.

I'm scribbling somes notes for a mod...
Though since I am no modder this might be the second mod I have ideas for that I'll never sit down to actually create.

[DreGregoire]

wow religious symbolism really? I didn't even see that since he was dead when they placed him on display. I just took it as the darkspawn way of telling others to expect to be annilated if they try to stop them. I mean I assume you are speaking of crucifiction, which by the way wasn't necessary of religious significance before Christ. I prefer this more gentle way of displaying the King than the head on a pike approach of most.

[SusanStoHelit]

DreGregoire wrote...

wow religious symbolism really? I didn't even see that since he was dead when they placed him on display. I just took it as the darkspawn way of telling others to expect to be annilated if they try to stop them. I mean I assume you are speaking of crucifiction, which by the way wasn't necessary of religious significance before Christ. I prefer this more gentle way of displaying the King than the head on a pike approach of most.

Dead doesn't matter. It's the rest of the picture. Have you seen those statues of gods in the Deep Roads? That the darkspawn have altered into dragon figures? We know the Archdemon is a god, and clearly these are depictions of religious significance to the darkspawn - or possibly to the Archdemon. I wonder whether the darkspawn are really all that mindless? Is it the archdemon making them have dragon god statues? Or are they making them under their own volition?

The image of Cailan is both reminiscent of Christ, yes, as I said earlier up the thread. But it's also reminiscent of those god statues. Do the darkspawn think Cailan is a god, that he's worshipped by humans? Or at least venerated - in the way that the dwarves venerate their ancestors. So Cailan may be seen by them, if not as a god, as an ancestor or Paragon. After all, the dwarves are who they have the most contact with. 

Is that why he's so displayed? Because in wars between groups with two different religions, the victor generally does one of two things: destroys the images/statues/icons/whatever ; or takes them over, converting them to their own use. This generally involves the idea that you are taking the power of the god away from the vanquished and appropriating it for yourself. Is Cailan hanging there their way of saying - here is your god, now he is ours. His power is ours. You are helpless against us. Or of affirming the helplessness of the surface dwellers to themselves?

[Edited for clarity.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 04 février 2010 - 03:08 .

[Lakmoots]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

stuff

Is that why he's so displayed? Because in wars between groups with two different religions, the victor generally does one of two things: destroys the images/statues/icons/whatever ; or takes them over, converting them to their own use. This generally involves the idea that you are taking the power of the god away from the vanquished and appropriating it for yourself. Is Cailan hanging there their way of saying - here is your god, now he is ours. His power is ours. You are helpless against us. Or of affirming the helplessness of the surface dwellers to themselves?

[Edited for clarity.]

It reminds me a bit of how I saw the Hindu Gods changed and absorbed into a more Bhuddist ethic in South East Asia, Cambodia specifically.

At the time it was a fundamentally Hindu nation that converted to Bhuddism, but *kept* veneration of Hindu Gods... you can even find Vishnu at Angkor Wat!!

It also reminds me of how Christianity assimilated religious figures in other cultures simply by adding elements of their own to certain Gods before renaming them entirely as "saints".

I saw the Dwarven statues changed by the Darkspawn as a way of reclaiming and sanctifying these statues, both as a way of marking territory and defiling, but also as an expression of elements of culture that WE had been told they do not have... but of course we will learn more.

I like the fact that this stuff was clearly thought about... unlike some other elements of dlc, it seems.

[Sarielle]

DreGregoire wrote.... I mean I assume you are speaking of crucifiction, which by the way wasn't necessary of religious significance before Christ.

True, the Romans used it a lot -- and after all, even Christianity says Christ was hung between two thieves. I don't think they'd ignore that bit of symbolism though...as I said his posture even mimics most of the crucifixes I've seen.

I think the fact that it mirrors the stuf fin the deep roads though, is what's really significant.


EDIT: Hmm. I think I want to read up on some pagan/wiccan goodies....

EDIT EDIT: Sorry for totally derailing this Melkathi I do agree with your original points...they put a lot of thought into some things I think, and yet it was largely just a place to visit. Still, I appreciated a sense of closure.

Modifié par Sarielle, 04 février 2010 - 03:59 .

[DreGregoire]

Well I can see how people would draw those conclusions when they think the way you are all thinking. I didn't see it that way, but then I tend to seperate my pretend life from my reallife, so I don't go in the pretend life thinking like real me or think like my multiple pretend selves in my reallife. Interesting views by all though.

[Thor Rand Al]

Not enough conversation with Alistair or should I say the lack of being able to repond to Alistair especially after finding Cailan

[SusanStoHelit]

Sarielle wrote...

EDIT: Hmm. I think I want to read up on some pagan/wiccan goodies....

That's actually my area, hehe, or one of them anyway. 

[Leonia]

I found the darkspawn necromancer to be quite unusual, sine we don't really see the dead being risen any where else in Dragon Age (other than by revival spells in combat). It just seemed.. out of place to me and there wasn't much of an explanation.

I had hoped to find more codex entries beyond Cailan's letters. It felt like RtO didn't answer ANY of our questions about the lead up to the Ostagar battle or about what truly happened afterwards (we still don't have any clues regarding Duncan, and I was really surprised Alistair never said "Hey, we never found Duncan..")

I was really hoping for some more dialogue between Alistair and my character seeing as we were both heavily involved at Ostagar but he was more interested in making fun of how old Wynne was (which was kinda funny, probably the bits I enjoyed most about the DLC).

I also was surprised that there was no dialogue about Maric's sword, I was pretty excited about finding it after reading the Calling and I thought maybe giving it to Alistair would have envoked some sort of "Wow, this belonged to my father" sort of conversation.

Any who, overall, I don't feel like the letters we find are much of a revelation, we already knew that Cailan was interested in working with the Orlesians, though I guess we didn't know he was thinking of a permanent alliance.

Modifié par leonia42, 04 février 2010 - 09:41 .

[melkathi]

Sarielle wrote...

EDIT EDIT: Sorry for totally derailing this Melkathi I do agree with your original points...they put a lot of thought into some things I think, and yet it was largely just a place to visit. Still, I appreciated a sense of closure.

Threads are living, breathing entities. We can no more control how they will evolve than we can control the future of our children. We can nudge them in the right direction, we can keep a watchful eye over them and do our best to guide them, but in the end, we just give them all we can and let them live their own life.


Besides, thread derailment is an artform and who am I to obstruct creativity?

Modifié par melkathi, 04 février 2010 - 11:49 .

[Yrkoon]

TeamRyan wrote...

What significance would the kings body have to the darkspawn... meaning how did they know he was the king and secondly if they knew what purpose does it serve to holster his body up in their camp?

How did they know he was the king?

  Ooh, Ooh, That's easy.   They hovered their mouse pointers over him.   That's how.     I imagine Mr. Ogre guy saw a big orange-bar   boss on the field,  He  Read the description over his head (King Caelin... or Human, King) and said:   Aha, this one's mine!  I need the exp/loot.

[Syntia13]

leonia42 wrote...

I found the darkspawn necromancer to be
quite unusual, sine we don't really see the dead being risen any where
else in Dragon Age (other than by revival spells in combat). It just
seemed.. out of place to me and there wasn't much of an explanation.

Eh?
What do you mean? There is a spell that reanimates the dead. I don't
remember the exact name as I haven't use it yet (I'm only in the middle
of my second playthrough), but I remember reading the description and
thinking that Morrigan would love it. So the necromancer is simply
darspawn wizzard (or emissary;p )with a nasty spell.

How did they know he was the king?

  Ooh, Ooh, That's easy.  
They hovered their mouse pointers over him.   That's how.     I imagine
Mr. Ogre guy saw a big orange-bar   boss on the field,  He  Read the
description over his head (King Caelin... or Human, King) and said:  
Aha, this one's mine!  I need the exp/loot.

:lol:

As for pet peeves - yes, why the Hell they assumed my Dalish or my Mage would give a frak about 'nobility' or 'royalty' when faced with descrated corpse? A common human (or elvish) deceny isn't enough?

And the second most disturbing thing.... WHY is Wynne hitting on my man? I was really, really shocked at that conversation. I wanted to clutch Alistair protectively to my chest and yell "You pervy pedo!" at Wynne. And I genuinely LIKE her, too. But, like, she's trice Ali's age, and Ali is mine this time!

(Boy, was my male Dalish disappointed to realize that Alistair is straight as a plank . Fortunately, Zevran happened )

[nikki191]

it did have some problems here and there as previously mentioned, like the huge battlefield that was remarkably clean of both bodies and bits of armour/weapon remains, etc

i do have to agree with the emotionally charged loot though, i put the armour, etc on my main character initially but had to take it off. it just felt wrong and i waited for alistair to level up a bit so he could wear it. thats kudos to bioware

ive always found it curious how the chantry are so fearful and hate wizards fearing them becoming demon possessed yet are perfectly fine with a straight circle mage reanimating corpses

Modifié par nikki191, 04 février 2010 - 02:37 .

[Lupus Canivus]

Sarielle wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I think the hanging of the body of Cailan had several levels.

First, the impact on the player: a very Christ-like crucifixion scene that is meant to be both shocking and sad. Second, the impact on the pc and companions. Third is the darkspawn component - and I find this the most interesting.

Yes, the darkspawn hang the bodies of those they've slain - or, possibly, kill them by hanging them. But this is different. If you look at the structure on which Cailan is hanging it is very similar to those in the Deep Roads. You know, those statues of gods that the darkspawn have altered and put dragon wings and heads on. It seems to me that they have displayed Cailan in much the same way.

Is this an act of veneration of Cailan? Or a desecration? Or simply a 'hunting trophy'? I have no idea, there is too little evidence, but I keep thinking about it.

I was trying to remember what the Cailan crucifixion reminded me of -- the stuff in the Deep Roads. Thank you! And now that I remember where they were from...you bring up some VERY interesting points.

They went extremely heavily religious with that symbolism though...even to the slightly turned/tipped head you see so often with Jesus. I've been trying to draw a parallel...Cailan was the sacrificial lamb at Ostagar -- at least from Loghain's perspective? He died so that Ferelden could live, so to speak?

Or that Loghain is Judes who is willing to sacrifice what he "believed" in, because it no longer fits his own image of what is/is not/should be.

[melkathi]

As imagery goes, the way Cailan's body is pierced by arrows has a very strong "Martyrdom of St. Sebastian" thing going.

Some links to artwork to show what I mean:

1
2
3
4

[_Aine_]

The crucifixion for me, seemed to be a mockery, like " Here, here is your King!" I have been wondering what the image was that he was mounted on. (you know those two curved things that he was between) -- kind of halo-like setup really, but what were they? The horns of a ogre or ? I can't remember for the life of me.

I would guess that the entire scene smacked of presentation and humiliation, similar to the entire purpose of shaming thieves publicly during the historical crucifixions of the common criminals of the past.

Modifié par shantisands, 05 février 2010 - 12:13 .

[SusanStoHelit]

shantisands wrote...

The crucifixion for me, seemed to be a mockery, like " Here, here is your King!" I have been wondering what the image was that he was mounted on. (you know those two curved things that he was between) -- kind of halo-like setup really, but what were they? The horns of a ogre or ? I can't remember for the life of me.

I would guess that the entire scene smacked of presentation and humiliation, similar to the entire purpose of shaming thieves publicly during the historical crucifixions of the common criminals of the past.

It's wings. The same as the wings on the dragonised statues in the deep roads that I mentioned. Hence also my comments on Cailan being seen as some kind of god by the darkspawn.

Edit: I'd put a screenshot it but some might be offended, because I use the Natural Bodies mod (I just cannot stand modern underwear on the characters, sheesh). So I won't.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 05 février 2010 - 12:34 .

[melkathi]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Edit: I'd put a screenshot it but some might be offended, because I use the Natural Bodies mod (I just cannot stand modern underwear on the characters, sheesh). So I won't.

Lol!
I had the same problem.
The thing is, natural bodies looks so right with the Cailan scene, that I didn't realize it at first.


Back to the thingie he's mounted on.
That pretty much is the same symbol as the one on the shield of the talking darkspawn in the awakening trailer *hint hint*

[SusanStoHelit]

Is it? I hadn't looked that closely, but that would make sense, because they're the same wings (dragon wings, one assumes) on the statues in the deep roads. They've taken a statue of a god, and added dragon wings and a dragon head to them.

Here we have Cailan's corpse (kept nice and fresh, too, by the necromancer I suppose) - raised up in the same way, and with the dragon wings of a darkspawn god added. Interesting ...

Edit: Maybe we should make a new thread to speculate on this matter? Or Melkathi should change the title? Or something? Because we are getting waaaay off topic.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 05 février 2010 - 01:02 .

[melkathi]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Is it? I hadn't looked that closely,

Here look closely. You feel sleepy. Your eyes begin to... Ooops sorry wrong forum.

Anyway.

Here look closely:

Modifié par melkathi, 05 février 2010 - 01:22 .