87 réponses à ce sujet

[SusanStoHelit]

Thanks Melkathi. Yep, they are the same. And, again, what can they be but a stylised representation of the Archdemon - their god.

[melkathi]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Thanks Melkathi. Yep, they are the same. And, again, what can they be but a stylised representation of the Archdemon - their god.

Yup, last time I asked I was told it depicts an Old God

[_Aine_]

ah, so they mount him in a very old-god... actually Horned God manner. Very interesting!!

Thanks guys. The shield was what was very horned-god to my mind in symbolism. The symbol used to signify masculine energy of a god.

Considering the decidedly Celtic flavour of a lot of the names or seeming inspiration, its a fitting symbolism. Cernunnos, The Celtic God of fertility, animals and the underworld is often depicted I think using that same horned god symbolism. Very cool, even if perhaps I am over thinking it. I do that much to my husbands dismay as he usually has to hear this stuff from me instead of on forums But given that they seek out the old gods, and EXIST in the underworld, its very fitting.

Strangely, as the pieces fall into place in my brain, I hear the game-click of those pressure floor tiles. haha

PS. I have the same mod as you guys have, and so... I have seen the fertility god myself. *blush* I believe! (just teasing)

!!
Actually, now that I am thinking of it, the warden shieldy thing, or the one that shows the two griffons I think it is with the chalice in the middle, I used to laugh and think I saw Duncan in it ( go ahead, Freud take yer best shot!) but actually now it just smacked me in the face:  The Green Jack  or Green Man also has the exact same look.   

Modifié par shantisands, 05 février 2010 - 02:05 .

[SusanStoHelit]

shantisands wrote...


PS. I have the same mod as you guys have, and so... I have seen the fertility god myself. *blush* I believe! (just teasing)

That's okay, dear, as both a pagan and a scholar of comparative religion whose areas include paganism and concepts of deity, I've come across a few fertility gods myself.

Edit: I'm not sure about horns though. In the statues in the Deep Roads it seems more like wings - dragon wings, to be precise. But you are right that looking at Cailan and the shield, it could be seen as horns - or the crescent moon. I think wings are far more likely with the dragon thing and all - but I could be wrong.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 05 février 2010 - 02:07 .

[melkathi]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

shantisands wrote...


PS. I have the same mod as you guys have, and so... I have seen the fertility god myself. *blush* I believe! (just teasing)

That's okay, dear, as both a pagan and a scholar of comparative religion whose areas include paganism and concepts of deity, I've come across a few fertility gods myself.

Edit: I'm not sure about horns though. In the statues in the Deep Roads it seems more like wings - dragon wings, to be precise. But you are right that looking at Cailan and the shield, it could be seen as horns - or the crescent moon. I think wings are far more likely with the dragon thing and all - but I could be wrong.

I can top that, I'm affraid.
On the building site, when we dug the foundations, we found an approx 300 BC clay... "tool" possibly used by priestesses during fertility rites (at least according to my archeologist).
You don't know how much of a prude you are until then


edit: is the thread completly derailed now? 

Modifié par melkathi, 05 février 2010 - 02:12 .

[_Aine_]

[quote]SusanStoHelit wrote...

That's okay, dear, as both a pagan and a scholar of comparative religion whose areas include paganism and concepts of deity, I've come across a few fertility gods myself.

Edit: I'm not sure about horns though. In the statues in the Deep Roads it seems more like wings - dragon wings, to be precise. But you are right that looking at Cailan and the shield, it could be seen as horns - or the crescent moon. I think wings are far more likely with the dragon thing and all - but I could be wrong.

[/quote]

Well, I am not a scholar of comparative religion myself, though religions have always fascinated me and so I have done a lot of reading.  I considered myself pagan for many years before I "lost my way" and decided I have no idea what I think anymore  *grins*   

I can't recall the statues in the deep roads, which is sad, because i just went through there today!  I know I have saves though, I will run through for a look-see.   With the dragons though, yes it totally *does* make more sense.   

[/quote]

I can top that, I'm affraid.
On the building site, when we dug the foundations, we found an approx 300 BC clay... "tool" possibly used by priestesses during fertility rites (at least according to my archeologist).
You don't know how much of a prude you are until then 
[/quote]

lol awesome!   

Sorry about my part in the derail.   You know that door you can inspect in the Tower of Ishal?  Why wouldn't they just stick barricades in front of it, like they did everywhere else?  Could it have possibly been something removed from the DLC?  (Easier to add a mouseover than change the graphics?  I don't think so but maybe?)  

Modifié par shantisands, 05 février 2010 - 02:29 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Okay, here is the pic of the statues in the Deep Roads - one set of them, anyway:

[/url]

I hope this works, just learning how to do pics.

Edit: Darn, don't know why there's two and I can't seem to get rid of one. Oh, well, more experimentation will have to follow.

2nd Edit: Yaay. Thanks Melkathi. (Why the heck does it do that?)

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 05 février 2010 - 08:15 .

[melkathi]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Edit: Darn, don't know why there's two and I can't seem to get rid of one. Oh, well, more experimentation will have to follow.

Ok, what you want to do is click on edit and once you are editing the post, click on BBCode. When you added the url to the image, the automatic link gadget added the image link twice. It does that.

Once you are in the BBCode window, you will want to delete one of the images. Basically you want to delete everything from one open URL tag (a tag is anything between [ and ])  to the URL tag that closes it. (a tag closes with a / in the tag

Here is an image of which bit you will need to delete once you have opened the BBCode:



Delete the highlighted stuff and you'll be fine.
Don't forget to delete that one ]
You'll notice it in your post between the two images. There is more you could clear out of the code, but it will work if you do just that.

Your best bet to have stuff like this work without a hitch is to learn some basic BBCode.
At least for links it's quite usefull.
So I'll just add a little image of what the correct syntax should have been for future endeavors:




Edit:
Since you used an image hosting site: sites like imageshack and photobucket give you a variety of links to choose from. Usually the ones for forum use include the BBCode. The imageshack one deffinitly does. When you copy pasted that into this forum's link thingie, you pasted the whole code into it. I think that is what causes it to mess up. But, since what imageshack provided you with is actual BBCode, you can, instead of using this forum's link thing, click on the BBCode icon, paste the code given to you by imageshack, then click the BBCode icom again and tada you are done. That will avoid future double images.

Modifié par melkathi, 05 février 2010 - 04:02 .

[FierachEredasSoulchiou]

Yrkoon wrote...

TeamRyan wrote...

What significance would the kings body have to the darkspawn... meaning how did they know he was the king and secondly if they knew what purpose does it serve to holster his body up in their camp?

How did they know he was the king?

  Ooh, Ooh, That's easy.   They hovered their mouse pointers over him.   That's how.     I imagine Mr. Ogre guy saw a big orange-bar   boss on the field,  He  Read the description over his head (King Caelin... or Human, King) and said:   Aha, this one's mine!  I need the exp/loot.

I think it was the golden armor that he wore.

Bling is very eyecatching.

[_Aine_]

Yeah mental note on that one, when a Ruler, don`t wear the flashy gold armor so the enemy can see you better to target you. lol



Thanks for the pic of the statues SusanStoHelit For as many times as I have been in those tunnels i don`t recall them at all! doh! They are definitely statues of men, dressed up as dragons. Funny too, right down to unnatural strapping of *wings* onto their backs ( making them obviously dressed up as dragons rather than hybrid symbols). Very peculiar! What do you make of them?

[melkathi]

shantisands wrote...

Thanks for the pic of the statues SusanStoHelit For as many times as I have been in those tunnels i don`t recall them at all! doh! They are definitely statues of men, dressed up as dragons. Funny too, right down to unnatural strapping of *wings* onto their backs ( making them obviously dressed up as dragons rather than hybrid symbols). Very peculiar! What do you make of them?

I find it interesting that they are human statues, therefor must have been dragged there from quite a distance.

Modifié par melkathi, 06 février 2010 - 01:20 .

[_Aine_]

I actually just ran into the exact same statues in the Tower of Ishal at pre-battle-of-Ostagar at the beginning of the game Suddenly I stopped and said "Oh! They have been blighted!" lol There was a statue up in the spot that they eventually hung Cailan as well, so I guess they were recreating that scene.

[Lupus Canivus]

They actuall remind me of the elf/Travinter statues. The one you see in the Dalish story and I think in the ruins during the warewolf story.

[Shadesofsiknas]

I have to say RTO is full of holes. I was very much left with the buyers remorse after this. Alot more so than Wardens Keep.

[Lady Catastrophe]

Carodej wrote...
9) Why does Alistair go on about having nothing of Duncan's, yet says not a word when we find Duncan't weapons? We get a lot more reaction from a shield we never actully see used that the weapons Duncan always had on him.

12) If the joining chalice is a special one used in all joinings in Ferelden, why didn't Alistair have a bigger reaction? If it was merely the chalice used in the latest joining, why is it even a gift for Alistair?

I wholeheartedly agree with these two points.I wanted to see a reaction from Alistair regarding finding Duncan's weapons and yet not coming across his corpse. And I also agree that if the chalice is truly considered as a gift for Alistair he should have had a cutscene plot reaction,not just the standard  "Is that for me?" .
I personally would have also loved to see the Genlock Necromancer bring Cailan back to life.It would have been such an awesome battle,as opposed to bringing the Ogre back to life that squeezed the life out of him like an over-sized lemon.

[SusanStoHelit]

shantisands wrote...

Yeah mental note on that one, when a Ruler, don`t wear the flashy gold armor so the enemy can see you better to target you. lol

Thanks for the pic of the statues SusanStoHelit For as many times as I have been in those tunnels i don`t recall them at all! doh! They are definitely statues of men, dressed up as dragons. Funny too, right down to unnatural strapping of *wings* onto their backs ( making them obviously dressed up as dragons rather than hybrid symbols). Very peculiar! What do you make of them?

Oh, the statues in the deep roads are almost certainly statues of gods, not men; they are obviously not of dwarves, so they're not dwarven paragons or ancestors either.

I'd suggest that they are most likely the old gods - not the Tevinter version who take the form of high dragons and are tainted into becoming Archdemons. Unless, of course, the Tevinter old gods are also egregors. In that case, the form is irrelevant since it changes as the beliefs of the worshippers change.

Maybe they're the elven old gods? A possibility.

Or the statues may simply date to the times of Arlathan, when men and elves (and possibly dwarves?) lived together, and when their culture was most likely open to intercultural penetration of this type. In which case, the god statues may represent an amalgam of religious and cultural beliefs.  Religious iconography is not, however, my field, although of course I know a (very) little about it.

The darkspawn influence is clear however. They are simply 'dragonising' everything. If you look around in RtO there are a lot of things that have dragon wings added. Not just Cailan's corpse. As I said earlier, it could be an act of desecration. Or it could be one of 'ownership' of taking over and co-opting someone else's objects of power and taking that power for yourself.

[Lakmoots]

Okay, people... we are getting *alot* more sophisticated here than the graphics sets allow...

Personally, I blame Sue... silly aussie girls.

*ahem*

An example of "statues" simply being "graphics"... The statue that you find in the Dalish Elf prologue is described as being a "representation of Elvish Gods in a human ruin".

These statues are re-used both in the Deep Roads... and as icons of Blood Magic in a series of encounters with Blood Mages in Denerim.

This, of course, leads to my "Wild Theory no. 16" - wherein the Elven Forgotten Ones and the Tevinter Gods are actually facets of the same divinities... meaning that the Black City is Arlathan, and the Maker is in fact the Trickster Wolf God...

Or... they use the same graphics...

Of course, this comes from a silly aussie boy, so...

[SusanStoHelit]

Lakmoots wrote...

Okay, people... we are getting *alot* more sophisticated here than the graphics sets allow...

Personally, I blame Sue... silly aussie girls.

*ahem*

An example of "statues" simply being "graphics"... The statue that you find in the Dalish Elf prologue is described as being a "representation of Elvish Gods in a human ruin".

These statues are re-used both in the Deep Roads... and as icons of Blood Magic in a series of encounters with Blood Mages in Denerim.

This, of course, leads to my "Wild Theory no. 16" - wherein the Elven Forgotten Ones and the Tevinter Gods are actually facets of the same divinities... meaning that the Black City is Arlathan, and the Maker is in fact the Trickster Wolf God...

Or... they use the same graphics...

Of course, this comes from a silly aussie boy, so...

We really do have to make a separate thread, I feel really bad for derailing Melkathi's thread like this - even with his implicit permission to do so.

[melkathi]

SusanStoHelit wrote...


We really do have to make a separate thread, I feel really bad for derailing Melkathi's thread like this - even with his implicit permission to do so.

I will not argue with a woman. That only leads to trouble.
But I was going to make you a new thread. IT was going to be a surprise though for your birthday. Now that you went ahead and made it yourself, well, no birthday pressie for you!

[melkathi]

So, back on topic!

Shadesofsiknas wrote...

I have to say RTO is full of holes. I was very much left with the buyers remorse after this. Alot more so than Wardens Keep.

I understand that Bioware are walking a fine line. On one hand, they want to not give too much information, leave people guessing and give them food for thought. On the other hand, a story needs to be there. People need to have concrete information and a plot that firmly anchors them in a make-belief world.
RTO got them to a point where they either had to give a lot of information or nearly none. As it's a small DLC and very early in the Dragon Age franchise, they chose to give little information. And that left a part of the playerbase dissatisfied.

[SusanStoHelit]

It's too early in the year for my birthday, but it's the thought that counts I suppose. Thanks Melkathi.



But yes, I thought that RtO did a pretty good job (for such a small dlc) of giving us some interesting tidbits of information that gave use some answers and raised a whole bucket full of others. And some cool loot too.



Holes? Yes. But holes in our information rather than holes in the plot or story. The 'What Cailan knew' thread is just great for looking at some of that.



There are a few plot holes in DAO, here and there, but so far they've been very small and unimportant ones. In a project this size, with so many writers - I'm impressed.

[melkathi]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

It's too early in the year for my birthday, but it's the thought that counts I suppose. Thanks Melkathi.

But yes, I thought that RtO did a pretty good job (for such a small dlc) of giving us some interesting tidbits of information that gave use some answers and raised a whole bucket full of others. And some cool loot too.

Holes? Yes. But holes in our information rather than holes in the plot or story. The 'What Cailan knew' thread is just great for looking at some of that.

There are a few plot holes in DAO, here and there, but so far they've been very small and unimportant ones. In a project this size, with so many writers - I'm impressed.

Hey, I never said I as planning to start the new thread anytime soon


As for RTO:

The real question is, what were people's expectations going in?
Did they purchase it in hope of answers or were they seeking more questions?
If you want answers, RTO does not really give those. Oh it gives some information, but all that does is open far more questions. If though you were looking for reasons to speculate and discuss, for things to keep your mind occupied during boring hours at work, then RTO did provide you with just that.

Did it provide the promissed closure? Not for me.
For me it actualy raised a new question: Where the fade are all those blasted darkspawn? I went to the Deep Roads, home of the darkspawn. There were no darkspawn there, they had left for the surface.
I traveled all over the surface, in relative safety, north of the blight. Then I decide to brave the darkspawn tide and return to Ostagar. And the darkspawn weren't there. All I found was stragglers. There was a chance for waves upon waves of darkspawn. A chance for constant fighting while trying to create a small window of calm to find the things we were looking for. To fight your way to Cailan's body and retrieve it in an act of defiance.
But that opportunity was missed.
So we went to the abandoned battlefield. It should have been a very emotional occasion. And for a moment, with Cailan's body it was. But the rest? Pointless, silly darkspawn barricades hindering your movement, snow covering everything - the changes to the familiar location were too crude to make the empty battlefield work... at least for me.

[Lady Olivia]

I don't know, guys. I'm surprised how you all seem to actually like the "christian symbols"  in RtO. I mean, you are obviously aware of the fact that the crucification of Cailan's body wasn't done to boost the morale of the darkspawn - since they need none; and that it wasn't done to lower the morale of the humans, since they were all slaughtered prior to the act.

It was done for the sole purpose of causing an emotional response in the player and as such constitutes the worst kind of melodrama.

To make it even worse, Cailan is anything but a Christ-like figure. He was immature, vainglorious and proud. He was brave, yes, but you can't say his death was some noble sacrifice - it was a sad, stupid death that didn't serve a thing. Sacrifice is a strong theme in DA, and I see Cailan Christ as a mockery of that and other motives established in the original game. Everything I liked DA for is either missing from this DLC or is reduced to parody.

[melkathi]

I like your point Lady Olivia. You are right, Cailan's death was far from being martyrdom in the sense of religious figures knowingly accepting death for their believes.
I like what they did there, not because I would in any way equate Cailan to Jesus Christ or any other figure that died a similar death.
But looking at it from a purely aesthetic point of view, I really appreciate what they tried to do and how well it was executed.

edit: other than that, I thing it's clear I was not exactly overwhelmed with excitement at what RTO had to offer either

Modifié par melkathi, 07 février 2010 - 01:38 .

[melkathi]

Addai67 wrote...

You get there after Redcliffe village has been mostly cleared out one way or another (evacuation + killing). Not the start of the attack. The darkspawn in the village are basically holding it after having taken it.

I mean, give the devs a little credit for having thought of some of these things, yes?

I was just running through the Tower of Ishal on my new dwarven warrior.
Now, outside we still have fighting going on in front of the tower.
And inside, I think we can agree that the tower has only just been taken?
Then how the Fade have the darkspawn already errected their edifices everywhere in the tower. Arranged spiked heads in circles and most importantly: stripped half the corpses and then cut them into chunks?
The Tower of Ishal looks during the battle of Ostagar the way you would expect it to look in Return to Ostagar.
And to me that is bad recycling of darkspawn visual resources. And if in the tower of Ishal, the darkspawn "atrocities" are just there for effect, why should they be any less so in any other part of the game?