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[errant_knight]

When the game starts, we see an apparently overconfident king who's looking for easy glory. He's open to the idea of additional troops from Orleis, something that is vehemently opposes by Loghain, but doesn't want to wait for that to happen. It appears to be more of an idea that he favors than actual fact, and he doesn't seem to think it's necessary.

Later, we find out that not only does he think it's necessary, he has all the treaties in place to allow it to happen. We also find out that he has serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at Ostagar, and even has doubts about his own survival. He's made arrangements to preserve the treaties if he is killed. It would seem that Cailan was playing a much deeper game than it appeared.

This creates a big question. Why didn't Cailan want to wait? Why was he so determined that the battle be fought when it was? If Cailan told Elric that there would be no victory at Ostagar, it would seem to imply that he knew something that Duncan, who believed the plan would succeed, did not--something that cast doubt on victory, but also made it imperative that they not wait for the Orleisians. What would that have been, and why wouldn't it be something he could share with Duncan? Why would he not wish to wait when he'd arranged for a stronger force to be available, clearly believing that was important?

Did he suspect treachery from Loghain, perhaps fearing a move against the crown, a civil war that would divide the armies making it impossible to gather such a large force again? He seems surprised by Howe's treachery, so perhaps not. Was it something else that we have no hint of? One has to wonder.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 12:47 .

[SusanStoHelit]

What struck me, actually, was that Elric says Duncan was busy blocking Loghain (which is why Cailan didn't have time to give the key to him). So clearly Cailan, and certain members of his household, and Duncan are all working together - against Loghain.



Was this blocking just military manoeuvring, trying to get around Loghain's Orlesian paranoia? Or was it political? Or something else?

[errant_knight]

Wow, I've played RtO 3 times and I missed that! Very, very interesting point! it could mean any of those things, although there's no mention of an actual attack by Loghain's troops. Ser Cautherin seems dismayed and surprised that they aren't following the plan--although not enough to do anything about it. (Y'know, I think I might just kill her at Landsmeet this next time.

I should also mention that I don't think Cailan was romancing the Orlesian empress, not with an eye toward marriage, anyway. It doesn't mean he wouldn't use his charm in negotiating the treaties. The treaties weren't about Fereldan autonomy in a merged state, and there's no reason to think that Cailan didn't value independance as much as the next Fereldan. He wouldn't want to be the king that made a newly freed Fereldan vassal to Orleis. No, the treaties were about forging a lasting peace between the two countries, quite an accomplishment.

I think the letter from Eamon was a separate matter, mostly there to let us know that if we think making Anora queen will ensure an heir and stable succession, we're barking up the wrong tree. It also lets us know that, while Cailan may have cheated on Anora (for which we have only her word, I believe, and we know how much that's worth), he was angry at the suggestion he put her aside.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 01:30 .

[Sarielle]

There's also the fact that he deliberately put Alistair out of harm's way -- he thought. After discovering Alistair's parentage I always thought back to that; it seems Cailan wasn't nearly so care-free as he appeared.



I want to re-do RTO (I may anyway...I think it would have changed some decisions Sarielle made at the Landsmeet if she'd had that knowledge) to hear all the dialogue first-hand again.



-bookmarks thread to see what other people come up with-

[errant_knight]

Sarielle wrote...

There's also the fact that he deliberately put Alistair out of harm's way -- he thought. After discovering Alistair's parentage I always thought back to that; it seems Cailan wasn't nearly so care-free as he appeared.

I want to re-do RTO (I may anyway...I think it would have changed some decisions Sarielle made at the Landsmeet if she'd had that knowledge) to hear all the dialogue first-hand again.

-bookmarks thread to see what other people come up with-

Another good point, and one that relates directly to Eamon's complaint in the letter that Cailan is putting himself in harm's way without an heir. It would seem that Cailan intended that Alistair succeed him, wouldn't it? I hadn't thought of that, but Cailan made all the preparations necessary for his death. He tried to keep his heir in the safest possible place, and with another warden as backup. He told his courtier about the chest, and how important the contents were. Curioser and curioser....

In my previous analysis of the letter, I neglected to consider that, focusing on the info about the probability that Anora is barre, but the most important part is really the concern about leaving an heir. I wonder if Cailan had decided on making Alistair his heir after Eamon first broached the matter of putting Anora aside, as a way to avoid humiliating her in that way? Oooo! Just had a thought.... What if Duncan conscripted Alistair as a way to get him out of the Chantry before he took his vows and became addicted to Lyrium, putting him under Chantry control forever? Maybe at Cailan's request?

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 01:39 .

[_Aine_]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

What struck me, actually, was that Elric says Duncan was busy blocking Loghain (which is why Cailan didn't have time to give the key to him). So clearly Cailan, and certain members of his household, and Duncan are all working together - against Loghain.

Was this blocking just military manoeuvring, trying to get around Loghain's Orlesian paranoia? Or was it political? Or something else?

Did he?  I have done that 3 times now and i keep missing things. grrrr.  What was said?  

[Sarielle]

errant_knight wrote...
Oooo! Just had a thought.... What if Duncan conscripted Alistair as a way to get him out of the Chantry before he took his vows and became addicted to Lyrium, putting him under Chantry control forever? Maybe at Cailan's request?

It's possible...Duncan's timing seemed pretty convenient, but then again he does seem to have impeccable timing for the PC as well.

If Duncan WAS involved, though, he's certainly not abiding by the Grey Wardens' stance of neutrality.

Once you know who Alistair is, too...subsequent playthroughs make his "So he needs two Grey Wardens standing up there holding the torch?" a little more significant, because you know why Alistair thinks (rightfully, imo) that he's being deliberately kept out of the battle.

[melkathi]

Sarielle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Oooo! Just had a thought.... What if Duncan conscripted Alistair as a way to get him out of the Chantry before he took his vows and became addicted to Lyrium, putting him under Chantry control forever? Maybe at Cailan's request?

It's possible...Duncan's timing seemed pretty convenient, but then again he does seem to have impeccable timing for the PC as well.

If Duncan WAS involved, though, he's certainly not abiding by the Grey Wardens' stance of neutrality.

Once you know who Alistair is, too...subsequent playthroughs make his "So he needs two Grey Wardens standing up there holding the torch?" a little more significant, because you know why Alistair thinks (rightfully, imo) that he's being deliberately kept out of the battle.

But if Cailan wanted Alistair safe, would the way to do that really be having him undergo the Joining?

[SusanStoHelit]

shantisands wrote...

Did he?  I have done that 3 times now and i keep missing things. grrrr.  What was said? 

I think I have a save just before that, I'll go back and make a note of the exact words. It's always possible I'm not recalling correctly.

[Sarielle]

melkathi wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Oooo! Just had a thought.... What if Duncan conscripted Alistair as a way to get him out of the Chantry before he took his vows and became addicted to Lyrium, putting him under Chantry control forever? Maybe at Cailan's request?

It's possible...Duncan's timing seemed pretty convenient, but then again he does seem to have impeccable timing for the PC as well.

If Duncan WAS involved, though, he's certainly not abiding by the Grey Wardens' stance of neutrality.

Once you know who Alistair is, too...subsequent playthroughs make his "So he needs two Grey Wardens standing up there holding the torch?" a little more significant, because you know why Alistair thinks (rightfully, imo) that he's being deliberately kept out of the battle.

But if Cailan wanted Alistair safe, would the way to do that really be having him undergo the Joining?

One could presume he didn't know that people could die. Or, it could simply be that Duncan recruited Alistair solely on his merits. -shrug- That's a good point though.

[_Aine_]

Sarielle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Oooo! Just had a thought.... What if Duncan conscripted Alistair as a way to get him out of the Chantry before he took his vows and became addicted to Lyrium, putting him under Chantry control forever? Maybe at Cailan's request?

It's possible...Duncan's timing seemed pretty convenient, but then again he does seem to have impeccable timing for the PC as well.

If Duncan WAS involved, though, he's certainly not abiding by the Grey Wardens' stance of neutrality.

Once you know who Alistair is, too...subsequent playthroughs make his "So he needs two Grey Wardens standing up there holding the torch?" a little more significant, because you know why Alistair thinks (rightfully, imo) that he's being deliberately kept out of the battle.

Yep, i think that is possible too ( that Duncan!) but the one thing about Duncan....well, two things..... 1) his is a fiery sort, not prone to being holier than thou for the sake of doing the grey warden thing alone and 2) i wouldn't put it past him to be NOT neutral as long as it was in the ultimate benefit of the neutrality and overall purpose of the fight against the Blight.  That might sound contradictory but its kind of " But DUncan, that isnt neutral" to his reply " no maybe not, but it benefits our neutrality...." LOL    Duncans kind of funny in that way, he is a bit of a rebel, never wanted to be a Grey Warden, though of many of them we see intimately, he is the one willing to make some really morally shady (perhaps) and tough  calls for the overall benefit of the wardens.    

[Carodej]

errant_knight wrote...

We also find out that he has serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at Ostagar, and even has doubts about his own survival.

I think I must go through RtO again, but the way I interpreted these doubts is that they did not occure prior to the battle, but that this part (at least) was after the battle had been joined and things were going poorly.

You have to love the depth of this game.

[melkathi]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

shantisands wrote...

Did he?  I have done that 3 times now and i keep missing things. grrrr.  What was said? 

I think I have a save just before that, I'll go back and make a note of the exact words. It's always possible I'm not recalling correctly.

I got a screenshot of the sentence, so noone needs to remember stuff
link:
http://img208.images...10020403511.jpg

[errant_knight]

Sarielle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Oooo! Just had a thought.... What if Duncan conscripted Alistair as a way to get him out of the Chantry before he took his vows and became addicted to Lyrium, putting him under Chantry control forever? Maybe at Cailan's request?

It's possible...Duncan's timing seemed pretty convenient, but then again he does seem to have impeccable timing for the PC as well.

If Duncan WAS involved, though, he's certainly not abiding by the Grey Wardens' stance of neutrality.

Once you know who Alistair is, too...subsequent playthroughs make his "So he needs two Grey Wardens standing up there holding the torch?" a little more significant, because you know why Alistair thinks (rightfully, imo) that he's being deliberately kept out of the battle.

Turns out he's right, huh? But maybe not at Duncan's behest.

I think the grey warden neutrality is a matter of regional convention, rather than a hard and fast rule. We know that the original wardens, the ones ot the Anderfels are defacto rulers of their country, to Riordan's disapproval. We also know that Fereldan Wardens have interfered in politics before, to the point of open rebellion. If Duncan thought it was best for the grey wardens to take the heir away from the chantry, and have him be a fellow grey warden, I don't see him balking. It would have been a risk, because he might not have survived the joining, but he's be as good as dead as a templar, as far as being an heir went.

Carodej wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

We also find out that he has serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at Ostagar, and even has doubts about his own survival.

I think I must go through RtO again, but the way I interpreted these doubts is that they did not occure prior to the battle, but that this part (at least) was after the battle had been joined and things were going poorly.

You have to love the depth of this game.

You do, don't you?
I don't think there's be any opportunity for discussion once the battle was joined. It was pretty intense. And he did send Alistair to the tower well before that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 01:57 .

[_Aine_]

melkathi wrote...

I got a screenshot of the sentence, so noone needs to remember stuff
link:
http://img208.images...10020403511.jpg

oh thanks! 

Wow, now see, my brain interpreted that so differently i didn't even connect them. I just thought that was like the " Loghain waits to bore me with his strategies" deal - where noone really wanted to listen to the old man spout of the who's, where's and why's of a battle they considered in the bag.  Hmmm. I must ponder now. lol   Because otherwise isn't that like Duncan purposely blocking Cailan from hearing the strategies?  Or blocking Loghain from setting up (properly) the flanking tactic they admittedly are hinging  on for success>?? 

Modifié par shantisands, 04 février 2010 - 01:59 .

[Carodej]

errant_knight wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Oooo! Just had a thought.... What if Duncan conscripted Alistair as a way to get him out of the Chantry before he took his vows and became addicted to Lyrium, putting him under Chantry control forever? Maybe at Cailan's request?

It's possible...Duncan's timing seemed pretty convenient, but then again he does seem to have impeccable timing for the PC as well.

If Duncan WAS involved, though, he's certainly not abiding by the Grey Wardens' stance of neutrality.

Once you know who Alistair is, too...subsequent playthroughs make his "So he needs two Grey Wardens standing up there holding the torch?" a little more significant, because you know why Alistair thinks (rightfully, imo) that he's being deliberately kept out of the battle.

Turns out he's right, huh? But maybe not at Duncan's behest.

I think the grey warden neutrality is a matter of regional convention, rather than a hard and fast rule. We know that the original wardens, the ones ot the Anderfels are defacto rulers of their country, to Riordan's disapproval. We also know that Fereldan Wardens have interfered in politics before, to the point of open rebellion. If Duncan thought it was best for the grey wardens to take the heir away from the chantry, and have him be a fellow grey warden, I don't see him balking. It would have been a risk, because he might not have survived the joining, but he's be as good as dead as a templar, as far as being an heir went.

But the Ferelden GWs rebellion was a one time thing, and might well have never occurred if not for the fact that arlessa Sophia Dryden was sentenced to become a GW when she lost her bid for the throne.  Sophia's drive and talent made her rise through the ranks to command the GWs, and with the King being the nasty piece of work that he was, well, the situation is pretty unique.

[Tatooine92]

*reads all this* Wow. I will never, EVER look at Cailan the same way again. I always saw him as a carefree, goofy sort of guy. Now I'm seeing a clever young man whose nonchalant nature was a mere front to throw off Loghain.



Makes his death even more of a waste.

[errant_knight]

melkathi wrote...

I got a screenshot of the sentence, so noone needs to remember stuff
link:
http://img208.images...10020403511.jpg

Keeping Loghain at bay... I hadn't really considered what that might mean, especially in relation to Duncan. I assumed it referred to complaint about the idea of Orlesians crossing the border, and the Grey Wardens leading the battle, but...hmmm.... What did Loghain want from Duncan?

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 02:04 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Neutrality is all well and good. But Duncan knows that Cailan supports the grey wardens - and Loghain doesn't. He more or less sees them as 'honorary Orlesians'. So anything that bolsters Cailan and makes Loghain stub his toe would be okay.



Staying neutral in a contest between Cailan and Loghain would mean the end of grey wardens in Ferelden if Loghain won. Not something Duncan would suffer gladly.

[SusanStoHelit]

And yes - keeping Loghain at bay, such a lovely phrase. It could mean so many things that we're left with more questions. But in combination with Elric's saying 'If anything were to happen to him [Cailan], he said, it was vital I deliver it [the key] to the Wardens' it's very interesting. Not to Loghain, of course, the compartment and it's contents would totally freak him out. But also not Arl Eamon.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 04 février 2010 - 02:11 .

[errant_knight]

Carodej wrote...

But the Ferelden GWs rebellion was a one time thing, and might well have never occurred if not for the fact that arlessa Sophia Dryden was sentenced to become a GW when she lost her bid for the throne.  Sophia's drive and talent made her rise through the ranks to command the GWs, and with the King being the nasty piece of work that he was, well, the situation is pretty unique.

That might have been the impetus, but the other wardens went along with it, and in light of what the wardens of the Anderfels do, I don't think we can dismiss the idea entirely. Neutrality may be an ideal or political convenience rather than a rule. Besides, Cailen wouldn't have been asking Duncan to overthrow the government, he would have been asking hin to see if his brother was a suitable candidate. Since that was what Duncan was out there doing anyway, why not?

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Neutrality is all well and good. But Duncan knows that Cailan supports the grey wardens - and Loghain doesn't. He more or less sees them as 'honorary Orlesians'. So anything that bolsters Cailan and makes Loghain stub his toe would be okay.

Staying neutral in a contest between Cailan and Loghain would mean the end of grey wardens in Ferelden if Loghain won. Not something Duncan would suffer gladly.

Good point. Staying on Cailan's good side, and making sure to minimize Loghain's influence was very much in the interests of the grey wardens.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 02:13 .

[Carodej]

errant_knight wrote...

Carodej wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

We also find out that he has serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at Ostagar, and even has doubts about his own survival.

I think I must go through RtO again, but the way I interpreted these doubts is that they did not occure prior to the battle, but that this part (at least) was after the battle had been joined and things were going poorly.

You have to love the depth of this game.

You do, don't you?
I don't think there's be any opportunity for discussion once the battle was joined. It was pretty intense. And he did send Alistair to the tower well before that.

Oops, I see I wasn't very clear about what I meant.  We learned about Cailan's worry over the state of the battle from Elric.  From how I interpreted RtO, I had the impression Elric learned this bit of infomation during the battle.

As for sending Alistair to the Tower of Ishal, I think that was mostly because Cailan didn't want his half brother - a potential rival for his throne (even if only as a figurehead) - to have a chance at the glory Cailan figured to get by stopping this mini-blight.  Cailan may or may not have also realized that for the good of the royal line, putting the only other known member of this bloodline in a safer place made for a good insurance policy as well.  So maybe it was smart or maybe it was glory seeking or maybe it was both.  It didn't signify to me that Cailan had serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at that time.

[SusanStoHelit]

Also consider this. If Cailan did decide to put Alistair where he would be available as heir - the Wardens is a very good choice. First, Duncan may have told him that Alistair was a 'good risk', that he'd a good chance of surviving the Joining. Second, the Grey Wardens as a whole would have a vested interest in protecting Alistair. He's put him in a group of people who are very loyal to each other, who are skilled fighters, and who have connections in places all over Thedas - political and military.

[Chasseresse]

Could be that Cailan insisted on Elric give the key to the Grey Wardens in the hope that it would end up in Alistair's hands, the heir he made sure was given the "safe" job during the battle.


Edited because I fail at English.

Modifié par Chasseresse, 04 février 2010 - 02:25 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Carodej wrote...

Cailan may or may not have also realized that for the good of the royal line, putting the only other known member of this bloodline in a safer place made for a good insurance policy as well.  So maybe it was smart or maybe it was glory seeking or maybe it was both.  It didn't signify to me that Cailan had serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at that time.

I don't think he really had doubts about the battle myself, but that it was exactly what you call it - an insurance policy. But I do think he had serious doubts about Loghain, about his stability, and about how he would take the possibility of an accord with Orlais. I don't think Cailan actually liked Loghain, or trusted him to think of Ferelden's best interests (as Cailan saw them). [Please note I don't wish to get into a debate here as to whether a treaty or accord with Orlais would be in those best interests. ]

Whatever Cailan's plans were with regard to Orlais, he knew Loghain would block him at every turn. And he didn't like Loghain's behaviour - "And you will remember who is King."