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[Sarah1281]

If illigetimacy ruled Alistair out entirely, the war would have been over before it began.

I thought those factions were more Anti-Loghain than anything else. Most people (presumably although Alistair appears to be a bit of an open secret) don't know about Alistair and their problems are either questions about Cailan's death, wanting to take advantage of the chaos to grab power for themselves, or that they don't want to see a commoner on the throne.

[errant_knight]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If illigetimacy ruled Alistair out entirely, the war would have been over before it began.

I thought those factions were more Anti-Loghain than anything else. Most people (presumably although Alistair appears to be a bit of an open secret) don't know about Alistair and their problems are either questions about Cailan's death, wanting to take advantage of the chaos to grab power for themselves, or that they don't want to see a commoner on the throne.

Some of the nobility speak in a somewhat disparaging way of 'Maric's bastard.' We can't know if they lean toward supporting Loghain because they support the 'Hero of Fereldan', because they hate Orleisians and trust him more, or because they disrespect Alisair's illegitimacy, but it may be a factor for some. Alistair seems to think so, but he's not very clearsighted when it comes to his worth. Eamon seems to think so, as well, but Eamon has spent a long time making sure that Alistair was no threat to Cailan's rule, in his own mind or anyone else's, and old habits die hard. Besides, it's a lot easier to shuffle a boy off to the Chantry, and convince him that he's incapable of being a leader of any kind if you can make yourself believe it. Otherwise, you might end up feeling like a real heel.

Modifié par errant_knight, 29 mars 2010 - 10:30 .

[Raiil]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If illigetimacy ruled Alistair out entirely, the war would have been over before it began.

I thought those factions were more Anti-Loghain than anything else. Most people (presumably although Alistair appears to be a bit of an open secret) don't know about Alistair and their problems are either questions about Cailan's death, wanting to take advantage of the chaos to grab power for themselves, or that they don't want to see a commoner on the throne.

It could have easily been both. People were both tied to the idea of the bloodline continuing and pretty cheesed off at Loghain too. If I had been a noble, I'd rather have a good-hearted bastard who has spent the last year or so trying to save us from the darkspawn over some arrogant ****** who tried to railroad me into submission.

It's hard to say for sure since the only people alive who knew about Alistair's proximity to the throne are the PC, any potential companions, Loghain, Eamon, Anora, theoretically Goldanna and probably Isolde, if she's alive after the whole Connor bit. (Clearly she knew nothing about his heritage when she became Arlessa.) The bannorn may have tried to shunt him onto the throne the moment they all found out about him, or they have tried to ignore him. There's really no way to know since most people had the fact sprung on them in surprise without a lot of time to think about it.

For all we know, Cailan may have already put into place some paperwork about Alistair that was simply lost due to the battle. We don't know for certain that he didn't already decide on Alistair. I would err on the side of caution and assume he didn't, but we don't know. If he had, I doubt anyone would know besides him and perhaps some poor notary.

[Thalorin1919]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If illigetimacy ruled Alistair out entirely, the war would have been over before it began.

I thought those factions were more Anti-Loghain than anything else. Most people (presumably although Alistair appears to be a bit of an open secret) don't know about Alistair and their problems are either questions about Cailan's death, wanting to take advantage of the chaos to grab power for themselves, or that they don't want to see a commoner on the throne.

I dont think that many people knew of Alistair and what he was. When Eamon came back alive and pretty much said he supported Alistair a.k.a "Maric's Bastard" then word got around. I mean, when you go to Denerim and hear the gossipers, they will here about a bastard of Maric making his claim for the throne.

I think alot of people were Anit-Loghain to begin with when they heard what he had done at Ostagar. It seemed like Ferelden was split half-half or maybe more one side and less the other when Loghain proclaimed his Regency. When Alistair came up, I'm sure all of those people supported Alistair.

On that note I always find it important in the game to make sure the nobles support you in the vote, and the Alistair duels Loghain - kills him - and confidently accepts his throne. It just seems to me that it is important that he makes himself be seen as a strong King already by defeating Loghain and having the nobles fall in behind him.

The people loved Cailan due to his warm approach and all that.  They didnt love him for his ruling. Its obvious in Awakening that Alistair seems to be respected. He seems to be confident as King (I hardened him in Origins) and the people respect him, such as Mhairi and others kneeling and proclaiming "King Alistair!" in a astonished voice.

[errant_knight]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If illigetimacy ruled Alistair out entirely, the war would have been over before it began.

I thought those factions were more Anti-Loghain than anything else. Most people (presumably although Alistair appears to be a bit of an open secret) don't know about Alistair and their problems are either questions about Cailan's death, wanting to take advantage of the chaos to grab power for themselves, or that they don't want to see a commoner on the throne.

I dont think that many people knew of Alistair and what he was. When Eamon came back alive and pretty much said he supported Alistair a.k.a "Maric's Bastard" then word got around. I mean, when you go to Denerim and hear the gossipers, they will here about a bastard of Maric making his claim for the throne.

I think alot of people were Anit-Loghain to begin with when they heard what he had done at Ostagar. It seemed like Ferelden was split half-half or maybe more one side and less the other when Loghain proclaimed his Regency. When Alistair came up, I'm sure all of those people supported Alistair.

On that note I always find it important in the game to make sure the nobles support you in the vote, and the Alistair duels Loghain - kills him - and confidently accepts his throne. It just seems to me that it is important that he makes himself be seen as a strong King already by defeating Loghain and having the nobles fall in behind him.

The people loved Cailan due to his warm approach and all that.  They didnt love him for his ruling. Its obvious in Awakening that Alistair seems to be respected. He seems to be confident as King (I hardened him in Origins) and the people respect him, such as Mhairi and others kneeling and proclaiming "King Alistair!" in a astonished voice.

I said that, actually. Oh, wait, just the unattributed part within the other quote....

You make a really good point here. We don't hear anyone outside the royal family and their advisors referring to Alistair as Maric's bastard before the civil war. And now that I think about it, none of them are saying that it damages his claim to the throne. Those who support Loghain seem to do it mostly out of respect for Anora and Loghain's history, not because they have a serious problem with Alistair's birth.

Hmmm, I can't actually remember anyone outside those protecting Cailan, or Anora and Loghain (who clearly have a vested interest) saying that Alistair isn't fit to rule. Well, except for Alistair, which is to be expected given how he was raised.

Modifié par errant_knight, 29 mars 2010 - 11:25 .

[Thalorin1919]

errant_knight wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If illigetimacy ruled Alistair out entirely, the war would have been over before it began.

I thought those factions were more Anti-Loghain than anything else. Most people (presumably although Alistair appears to be a bit of an open secret) don't know about Alistair and their problems are either questions about Cailan's death, wanting to take advantage of the chaos to grab power for themselves, or that they don't want to see a commoner on the throne.

I dont think that many people knew of Alistair and what he was. When Eamon came back alive and pretty much said he supported Alistair a.k.a "Maric's Bastard" then word got around. I mean, when you go to Denerim and hear the gossipers, they will here about a bastard of Maric making his claim for the throne.

I think alot of people were Anit-Loghain to begin with when they heard what he had done at Ostagar. It seemed like Ferelden was split half-half or maybe more one side and less the other when Loghain proclaimed his Regency. When Alistair came up, I'm sure all of those people supported Alistair.

On that note I always find it important in the game to make sure the nobles support you in the vote, and the Alistair duels Loghain - kills him - and confidently accepts his throne. It just seems to me that it is important that he makes himself be seen as a strong King already by defeating Loghain and having the nobles fall in behind him.

The people loved Cailan due to his warm approach and all that.  They didnt love him for his ruling. Its obvious in Awakening that Alistair seems to be respected. He seems to be confident as King (I hardened him in Origins) and the people respect him, such as Mhairi and others kneeling and proclaiming "King Alistair!" in a astonished voice.

I said that, actually. Oh, wait, just the unattributed part within the other quote....

You make a really good point here. We don't hear anyone outside the royal family and their advisors referring to Alistair as Maric's bastard before the civil war. And now that I think about it, none of them are saying that it damages his claim to the throne. Those who support Loghain seem to do it mostly out of respect for Anora and Loghain's history, not because they have a serious problem with Alistair's birth.

Hmmm, I can't actually remember anyone outside those protecting Cailan, or Anora and Loghain (who clearly have a vested interest) saying that Alistair isn't fit to rule. Well, except for Alistair, which is to be expected given how he was raised.

Oh, didnt see that there.

Yeah, seems to me that people think Alistair might actually make a good ruler. Eamon expresses his confidence to you, even though he had to tell Alistair that he would never reach the throne. And Bann Teagan, a person who comes off of intelligent, seems to support the idea also.

Throughout all of Awakening you never hear anything bad about King Alistair, and you hear more positive things about him, little as that is. But throughout all of Origins you hear bad things about Cailan, basically how he comes off as a dimwit to most people.

[errant_knight]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If illigetimacy ruled Alistair out entirely, the war would have been over before it began.

I thought those factions were more Anti-Loghain than anything else. Most people (presumably although Alistair appears to be a bit of an open secret) don't know about Alistair and their problems are either questions about Cailan's death, wanting to take advantage of the chaos to grab power for themselves, or that they don't want to see a commoner on the throne.

I dont think that many people knew of Alistair and what he was. When Eamon came back alive and pretty much said he supported Alistair a.k.a "Maric's Bastard" then word got around. I mean, when you go to Denerim and hear the gossipers, they will here about a bastard of Maric making his claim for the throne.

I think alot of people were Anit-Loghain to begin with when they heard what he had done at Ostagar. It seemed like Ferelden was split half-half or maybe more one side and less the other when Loghain proclaimed his Regency. When Alistair came up, I'm sure all of those people supported Alistair.

On that note I always find it important in the game to make sure the nobles support you in the vote, and the Alistair duels Loghain - kills him - and confidently accepts his throne. It just seems to me that it is important that he makes himself be seen as a strong King already by defeating Loghain and having the nobles fall in behind him.

The people loved Cailan due to his warm approach and all that.  They didnt love him for his ruling. Its obvious in Awakening that Alistair seems to be respected. He seems to be confident as King (I hardened him in Origins) and the people respect him, such as Mhairi and others kneeling and proclaiming "King Alistair!" in a astonished voice.

I said that, actually. Oh, wait, just the unattributed part within the other quote....

You make a really good point here. We don't hear anyone outside the royal family and their advisors referring to Alistair as Maric's bastard before the civil war. And now that I think about it, none of them are saying that it damages his claim to the throne. Those who support Loghain seem to do it mostly out of respect for Anora and Loghain's history, not because they have a serious problem with Alistair's birth.

Hmmm, I can't actually remember anyone outside those protecting Cailan, or Anora and Loghain (who clearly have a vested interest) saying that Alistair isn't fit to rule. Well, except for Alistair, which is to be expected given how he was raised.

Oh, didnt see that there.

Yeah, seems to me that people think Alistair might actually make a good ruler. Eamon expresses his confidence to you, even though he had to tell Alistair that he would never reach the throne. And Bann Teagan, a person who comes off of intelligent, seems to support the idea also.

Throughout all of Awakening you never hear anything bad about King Alistair, and you hear more positive things about him, little as that is. But throughout all of Origins you hear bad things about Cailan, basically how he comes off as a dimwit to most people.

Eamon, and to a lesser extent, Teagan, don't actually express confidence. More like a lack of other options. After Eamon is cured, he proposes that we put Alistair forward as the heir and Teagan says, "Alistair? Are you sure?", to which Eamon replies (I have to paraphrase here), that it's sad that it's come to this, but there's no other choice. That's expecially unappealing when, in my playthroughs, Alistair is standing right there.

My feeling is that after spending Alistair's whole life making sure that he knew he couldn't be king, a threat to Cailan, or have any notion of raising a rebellion, Eamon has a tough time turning on a dime and raising a rebellion in Alistair's favor. In my opinion, he sees Alistair no more clearly than Anora or Loghain. Rather, he sees the person he's tried to force Alistair to become, rather than the person he can be. The only person in the game who has the ability to see Alistair's potential, and to help him realize it, is the PC, and only then if the player takes that option.

Modifié par errant_knight, 30 mars 2010 - 12:06 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...
The only person in the game who has the ability to see Alistair's potential, and to help him realize it, is the PC, and only then if the player takes that option.

Eamon does express more confidence later on, prior to the Landsmeet, if you express doubts about Alistair's ability.  But I do usually feel that my PC is the only one who sees Alistair for who he really is.  I like it that way, myself.

[Thalorin1919]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
The only person in the game who has the ability to see Alistair's potential, and to help him realize it, is the PC, and only then if the player takes that option.

Eamon does express more confidence later on, prior to the Landsmeet, if you express doubts about Alistair's ability.  But I do usually feel that my PC is the only one who sees Alistair for who he really is.  I like it that way, myself.

As do I. There are very few moments in real life when you can make someone realize there true potential to become something great. Doing that with Alistair always makes the game awesome.

[errant_knight]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
The only person in the game who has the ability to see Alistair's potential, and to help him realize it, is the PC, and only then if the player takes that option.

Eamon does express more confidence later on, prior to the Landsmeet, if you express doubts about Alistair's ability.  But I do usually feel that my PC is the only one who sees Alistair for who he really is.  I like it that way, myself.

As do I. There are very few moments in real life when you can make someone realize there true potential to become something great. Doing that with Alistair always makes the game awesome.

That's interesting to know--and makes me think better of Eamon. I've never chosen that option.
To me, helping Alistair become the king that he can be--and realizing that he might actually enjoy the ggod that he can do, is a big part of the game for me as well, maybe the most satisfying part. Well, there's defeating the archdemon, of course, but that's not as personally satisfying as seeing a friend/loved one take back their life.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

That's interesting to know--and makes me think better of Eamon. I've never chosen that option.
To me, helping Alistair become the king that he can be--and realizing that he might actually enjoy the ggod that he can do, is a big part of the game for me as well, maybe the most satisfying part. Well, there's defeating the archdemon, of course, but that's not as personally satisfying as seeing a friend/loved one take back their life.

If you say Alistair knows nothing about being king, Eamon contradicts you and says that he knows how to lead men in battle; he knows how to seek justice; and he knows how to look to the Maker for guidance.  Eamon could be subconsciously talking about himself, of course, but I think he's being straight.  I'm not an Eamon hater, though, so others' MMV.

I agree totally with you about the satisfaction of seeing Alistair come into his own.  It's part of the romantic mystique of the story, and I don't just mean the little-r romance.

[errant_knight]

Double post

Modifié par errant_knight, 30 mars 2010 - 06:48 .

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

That's interesting to know--and makes me think better of Eamon. I've never chosen that option.
To me, helping Alistair become the king that he can be--and realizing that he might actually enjoy the ggod that he can do, is a big part of the game for me as well, maybe the most satisfying part. Well, there's defeating the archdemon, of course, but that's not as personally satisfying as seeing a friend/loved one take back their life.

If you say Alistair knows nothing about being king, Eamon contradicts you and says that he knows how to lead men in battle; he knows how to seek justice; and he knows how to look to the Maker for guidance.  Eamon could be subconsciously talking about himself, of course, but I think he's being straight.  I'm not an Eamon hater, though, so others' MMV.

I agree totally with you about the satisfaction of seeing Alistair come into his own.  It's part of the romantic mystique of the story, and I don't just mean the little-r romance.

I've never found Eamon hateable, either. I think he's a guy who's always tried to do his best in a difficult situation with competing interests, made some mistake, had some regrets.... I think the locket demonstrates that. In his position, Cailan had to come first, and that cause unanticipated damage. Isolde, and the part she may have played, well, that's...pretty weak, but he's not the first person to be manipulated by an attractive young spouse, and he surely won't be the last.

[Thor Rand Al]

I wonder if the whole Conner thing made Eamon wake up a bit. She was the reason that happened in the first place. I never went that route, I always saved both but just once I wish there was a way to teach her a lesson without it causing a death. I berate her as much as I can when I get the chance too lol.

[errant_knight]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

I wonder if the whole Conner thing made Eamon wake up a bit. She was the reason that happened in the first place. I never went that route, I always saved both but just once I wish there was a way to teach her a lesson without it causing a death. I berate her as much as I can when I get the chance too lol.

As do I, I also enjoy it when Teagan gives her the verbal smack upside the head about causing the whole thing. Most enjoyable.

Heh, we should probably pull this back to Cailan. We're drifting a little. Still in the ballpark, but drifting....

Modifié par errant_knight, 30 mars 2010 - 07:02 .

[Xandurpein]

While I can certainly see the appeal in helping Alistair become King, even if I doubt he'll ever really enjoy it without a HNF he loves by his side, hardened or not, I have my doubts about Eamon's motives. I think Eamon simply wants to run things through Alistair. He sees himself as the man who will steer Alistair and all Alistair need is to look convincing. This is also pretty much what happens if Alistair unhardened becomes sole King with no female player character to guide him I think.

/Edit. Ooops, that was still drfiting away wasn't it. Sorry.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 30 mars 2010 - 09:12 .

[Lughsan35]

melkathi wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Oooo! Just had a thought.... What if Duncan conscripted Alistair as a way to get him out of the Chantry before he took his vows and became addicted to Lyrium, putting him under Chantry control forever? Maybe at Cailan's request?

It's possible...Duncan's timing seemed pretty convenient, but then again he does seem to have impeccable timing for the PC as well.

If Duncan WAS involved, though, he's certainly not abiding by the Grey Wardens' stance of neutrality.

Once you know who Alistair is, too...subsequent playthroughs make his "So he needs two Grey Wardens standing up there holding the torch?" a little more significant, because you know why Alistair thinks (rightfully, imo) that he's being deliberately kept out of the battle.

But if Cailan wanted Alistair safe, would the way to do that really be having him undergo the Joining?

The joining was done long before Cailan would have had any opportunity to learn the boy's heritage.  If the  Arl of Redcliffe was a backstabbing little blighter like Arl Howe, then he might have known prior to ritual. 

Even knowing the rituals lethality this is also something that everyone who wants to assure a bastard has no claim would encourage...

[Xandurpein]

Lughsan35 wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Oooo! Just had a thought.... What if Duncan conscripted Alistair as a way to get him out of the Chantry before he took his vows and became addicted to Lyrium, putting him under Chantry control forever? Maybe at Cailan's request?

It's possible...Duncan's timing seemed pretty convenient, but then again he does seem to have impeccable timing for the PC as well.

If Duncan WAS involved, though, he's certainly not abiding by the Grey Wardens' stance of neutrality.

Once you know who Alistair is, too...subsequent playthroughs make his "So he needs two Grey Wardens standing up there holding the torch?" a little more significant, because you know why Alistair thinks (rightfully, imo) that he's being deliberately kept out of the battle.

But if Cailan wanted Alistair safe, would the way to do that really be having him undergo the Joining?

The joining was done long before Cailan would have had any opportunity to learn the boy's heritage.  If the  Arl of Redcliffe was a backstabbing little blighter like Arl Howe, then he might have known prior to ritual. 

Even knowing the rituals lethality this is also something that everyone who wants to assure a bastard has no claim would encourage...

Making Alistair a Grey Warden would be one of the worst things possible if you had plans to make Alistair available as heir really. What happens if you become a Grey Warden? You are more or less expected to give up your previous life and any titles you might have had, you might die at the joining and the chance that you'll ever produce an heir is dramtically lowered. Making him a Grey Warden so he can NOT ever claim the throne makes a lot more sense.

[roundcrow]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me as if there should have been plans for succession whether the King had an heir or not. Why wasn't a clear line established? Was this lack of foresight on Cailan's part, or a necessity of the plot?

[Maria13]

roundcrow wrote...

I could be wrong, but it seems to me as if there should have been plans for succession whether the King had an heir or not. Why wasn't a clear line established? Was this lack of foresight on Cailan's part, or a necessity of the plot?

Have you made a will?  I'm just asking because I haven't either yet  in most countries the passing of property to  those we love is accomplished much easier and cheaply with a will in place...  The point I'm making is that establishing a clear line of succession, as does drawing up a will, by default means assuming and confronting your own mortality, many young people and even those of us who are a little older are not happy to do that.  So, yeah, the lack of a clear succession may well be a plot device but it is also psychologically credible.

[Maria13]

[/quote]

Making Alistair a Grey Warden would be one of the worst things possible if you had plans to make Alistair available as heir really. What happens if you become a Grey Warden? You are more or less expected to give up your previous life and any titles you might have had, you might die at the joining and the chance that you'll ever produce an heir is dramtically lowered. Making him a Grey Warden so he can NOT ever claim the throne makes a lot more sense.

[/quote]

I'm glad that this thread has been resurrected as I always thought it was one of the most interesting ones on the board. 

Taking up something I have said earlier I think it would be foolish of Cailan to openly acknowledge Alistair as his heir at this early stage.  They are too proximate in age, there is too much that could happen in the meantime.  I agree that it seems that Alistair became a grey warden before Cailan really thought things through on the succession, however, there are considerable advantages for Cailan in Alistair being a grey warden.  These are firstly that he is disciplined and controlled and his fertility and lifespan are curtailed, but not by Cailan himself, the end result is that he is no longer an entirely free agent.  Add to this the fact that the wardens are a transnational organisation,  Alistair could be moved around across frontiers and used to good diplomatic/intelligence gathering advantage.  If Alistair shows promise he may become a future commander of the grey and a powerful ally.  Alistair is in fact far more useful to Cailan in the wardens than he would ever be as a templar as they are merely the puppets of the chantry.

[Huojin]

Maria13 wrote...

roundcrow wrote...

I could be wrong, but it seems to me as if there should have been plans for succession whether the King had an heir or not. Why wasn't a clear line established? Was this lack of foresight on Cailan's part, or a necessity of the plot?

Have you made a will?  I'm just asking because I haven't either yet  in most countries the passing of property to  those we love is accomplished much easier and cheaply with a will in place...  The point I'm making is that establishing a clear line of succession, as does drawing up a will, by default means assuming and confronting your own mortality, many young people and even those of us who are a little older are not happy to do that.  So, yeah, the lack of a clear succession may well be a plot device but it is also psychologically credible.

It should be for a king. It's far more important for him to do it than for any of us nobodies


I just think it's weird that such a big deal is made of being a Grey Warden (especially by Alistair), and how you have to give up ALL of your previous life (annoying for my Cousland and Dalish. My mage...not so much XD) but Alistair can still become king.

Double standards  = lol

Modifié par Huojin, 30 mars 2010 - 11:22 .

[Janni-in-VA]

"...however, there are considerable advantages for Cailan in Alistair being a grey warden. These are firstly that he is disciplined and controlled and his fertility and lifespan are curtailed, but not by Cailan himself, the end result is that he is no longer an entirely free agent. Add to this the fact that the wardens are a transnational organisation, Alistair could be moved around across frontiers and used to good diplomatic/intelligence gathering advantage. If Alistair shows promise he may become a future commander of the grey and a powerful ally. Alistair is in fact far more useful to Cailan in the wardens than he would ever be as a templar as they are merely the puppets of the chantry."

Now this is a line of reasoning I hadn't seen before. Cailan and Anora are still young enough to have children, even though Anora is pushing 30. (I still think it likely there are some fertility issues there.) And, Cailan surely does admire and respect the Wardens, so it may even have seemed to him that he was giving Alistair a chance to be something really special. Cailan's a good man, so I think it's likely he saw the Wardens as a way to help his brother without directly setting him up as an heir. The political implications had just never struck me.

[Xandurpein]

Janni-in-VA wrote...
 Cailan and Anora are still young enough to have children, even though Anora is pushing 30. (I still think it likely there are some fertility issues there.)

If you are a HNM that married Anora and let Loghain live, Loghain will mention the possibility of you getting an heir with Anora in his cameo. While it's not certain, his conversation heavily hinted that Anora just isn't interested in having any children. Loghain's exact words were:
"I asked Anora if there are any plans for an heir. Her horrified look tells me no, but you might not want to wait much longer".

Just thought I should mention it. His whole conversation is awesome if you are married to Anora.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 30 mars 2010 - 02:09 .

[Popeandy]

He wanted to run into battle and die in glory so he would be remembered?